Total Newbie trying to figure my base requirements.

[Tom Dixon]

If you want to go the Chinese CNC machine route Grizzly just added a 600mmX900mm Chinese made machine to their line up. It's price at 5K is about double what you could buy one through AliExpress from Blue Elephant or AccTek but you would be assured support. I've been shopping Chinese machines casually for a while. I'll get more serious next year. One suggestion for you is to Google "Chinese CNC reviews". There is a lot of info out there from bad to great. Take your time. For myself I'm considering a 900mmX1200MM as a hobby machine for my shop. This one has caught my eye: AccTek 9012 It's specs are close to what I want except for the spindle size.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I've joined the Camheads forum and now am starting to read many of the threads, obviously this leans towards the Camaster machines, which would require the sacrifice of a Ducati.

I'm not aware of other brands, probably in the $6K-$12K range.

I can see this will probably be one of the longest research and info gathering process I'm about to undertake.

Keep the info and suggestions coming, thanks.

[Jim Becker]

There are plenty of machines in the $6-12K US range, but they are not going to be "four-by-eights" in many cases. That includes the heavier brands like Camaster, ShopSabre and ShopBot as well as companies like Axiom plus the "build your own" machines. And thanks for joining Camheads. Even if you choose to go another direction, there's a lot of good people and a lot to learn.

[David Buchhauser]

One of my machines is the CNC Router Parts (now Avid CNC) Pro4848 with 3hp spindle. This is a 48 x 48 machine (actual travel is 49.5" x 49.5"). I bought this earlier in the year. The beauty of this machine is that it is easily expandable to 48 x 96 (or longer). My cost was $9848.00 plus shipping. It would be another $1100 to get the 48 x 96 version. So I guess this is pushing the $12k that Jim mentioned. Here's Frank Howarth showing how easy it is to add an additional 4 feet to the CNC Router Parts table.
David

https://youtu.be/ygND7TFziF8

Frank adds 4 ft. to cncrp table.jpg

[bobby milam]

If you want to go the Chinese CNC machine route Grizzly just added a 600mmX900mm Chinese made machine to their line up. It's price at 5K is about double what you could buy one through AliExpress from Blue Elephant or AccTek but you would be assured support. I've been shopping Chinese machines casually for a while. I'll get more serious next year. One suggestion for you is to Google "Chinese CNC reviews". There is a lot of info out there from bad to great. Take your time. For myself I'm considering a 900mmX1200MM as a hobby machine for my shop. This one has caught my eye: AccTek 9012 It's specs are close to what I want except for the spindle size.

Tom, the spindle size is not an issue. You can buy a Chinese spindle and VFD fairly cheaply if that one wasn't enough for you. If you are looking at Acctek, I'd suggest going thru Acctek USA. They already have contacts in China with the company and distribute in the US for them so they can order a machine how you'd like it. I am pretty sure they could order that machine and have the spindle and VFD changed for a different size spindle at the factory. I've had mine for a little over a year and am glad that I made the purchase.

[Tom Dixon]

Tom, the spindle size is not an issue. You can buy a Chinese spindle and VFD fairly cheaply if that one wasn't enough for you. If you are looking at Acctek, I'd suggest going thru Acctek USA. They already have contacts in China with the company and distribute in the US for them so they can order a machine how you'd like it. I am pretty sure they could order that machine and have the spindle and VFD changed for a different size spindle at the factory. I've had mine for a little over a year and am glad that I made the purchase.

Thanks for the tip on contacting AccTek USA Bobby. I was planning to get a quote with a 3KW water cooled spindle and a bigger VFD but it is going to have to wait until at least Q2 2020. I just purchase a oscillating belt sander which I pick up tomorrow so I'm pretty tapped out for 2019. I'm glad to hear you are pleased with your AccTek CNC. What are the specs on the machine you purchased?

[bobby milam]

I sent you a PM with some info on my machine.

[Biff Phillips]

I would not recommend a water cooled spindle, although they are functional.
An air cooled spindle is much better.
I have used both.

An air cooled one typically weighs less (in my case, the difference was about 20 lbs). Less weight on the gantry is good. In a watercooled one, you have to rig up something to pump coolant through it.. In my case, I got a pump system similiar to what they use for water cooling CPUs. It is an added expense, plus I had to rig something to put it on top of the carriage that slides on the gantry (not too hard since my CNC was DIY, but still a hassle. Other people have the pump in a bucket, pump water through the spindle and drain back into the bucket, but that seems a like a pain.. imagine your router moving around, you have to worry about the hoses moving along with it and making sure they don't catch hold of something or kink, etc..

Air cooled is way better. My air cooled chineese spindle had a rectangular body on it, with holes already threaded to attach to the Z slide. This is fantastic, as you don't have to buy a spindle mount and also it keeps the spindle closer to the gantry, which is also desirable.. However the downside is that you have to drill holes into the plate that normally holds the spindle mount..

Good luck, hope what I posted makes sense..

[David Buchhauser]

I would not recommend a water cooled spindle, although they are functional.
An air cooled spindle is much better.
I have used both.

Hi Biff,

I have a 2.2 KW (3HP) air cooled spindle on one machine and a 3 KW water cooled ATC spindle on another machine. In my case, the benefit of the water cooled ATC spindle is the automatic tool change feature. This allows for much faster tool changes than with the air cooled spindle, and if implemented - fully automatic tool changes under program control. This feature eliminates the need for using wrenches to remove and replace the tool or tool/collet assembly, and then setting the tool height offset value every time a different tool is required as part of the program. The water lines, air lines, and tool holder release control wires are all run in the same cable tracks as the other cables for the motors, proximity sensors, and spindle power cable.

There are some things I like better about the air cooled setup, and others that I more prefer with the water cooled setup. At least in my case, I do not believe that "air cooled is way better".

David

[bobby milam]

There are trade offs between water and air cooled. Air cooled are generally more expensive, water cooled you have to use water. My machine came setup with water cooled and hoses are run thru the tracks so movement is not an issue. I use a 5 gal bucket with a lid and a pond pump. Once setup it really isn't an issue.
Just like David, I have upgraded to an ATC spindle so cost of water cooled and air cooled came into play. Plus if I ran an air cooled With the ATC I would have to purchase a larger air compressor to have the air flow to cool the lowest bearings so that's another expense.

These spindles are basically throw away spindles so i don't mind saving money. There is the issue of weight depending on your machine and what it can handle. The weight isn't an issue for mine.

[Jim Becker]

Just to be clear for folks new to this, air cooled or water cooled is not connected to any automatic tool change feature. Both spindle types are used with ATCs. It just so happens that a previous poster has two machines; one with an ATC and one without an ATC. It's just coincidental that the ATC machine has a water cooled spindle. ATCs are really nice to have, but they are not an inexpensive option...extra hardware, more expensive spindle because of the need to support the quick change inserts, often higher licensing fees for the CNC control software (depending on which software a machine uses), etc. Some of us have what I call the "poor man's ATC"...which is change the tool with your hands but the machine auto-measures it, or in some cases, a machine with multiple motors on the gantry, such as Camaster's X3 system with three. Most machines with ATCs are larger setups where "time is money". There is growing interest in ATCs for smaller machines, however. Gary Campbell has done a few really nice, small bed machines with ATCs and kick-butt performance for his clients.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thanks, as the OP, this is all very educational, keep it coming.

I've been looking at the Axiom Pro series, if I move ahead with actually buying a machine, I like the flexibility of having a 4th axis capability as well as a laser engraver.

Again, my desire to own one of these is purely from a hobbyist standpoint.

[David Buchhauser]

Just to be clear for folks new to this, air cooled or water cooled is not connected to any automatic tool change feature. Both spindle types are used with ATCs. It just so happens that a previous poster has two machines; one with an ATC and one without an ATC. It's just coincidental that the ATC machine has a water cooled spindle.

Yes Jim - you are correct that the ATC feature is available on both air cooled and water cooled spindles. The reason I went with the water cooled ATC spindle was that I could not find an equivalent air cooled ATC spindle that would meet my criteria with respect to weight and cost. At the time, the smallest air cooled ATC spindle I could find was rated at around 5 KW and weighed around 60 lbs. I don't need that much power and 60 lbs. is probably way too heavy for my particular machine, particularly for rapid acceleration/deceleration moves. The 3 KW water cooled ATC spindle I selected weighs around 30 lbs., is more compact, and was much more reasonably priced. My only reservation was the narrower spindle speed range of 12000 to 18000 rpm compared to the spindle speed range on my 2.2 KW air cooled unit of 8000 to 24000 rpm. Since this particular machine is set up for machining aluminum with coolant (no wood routing) I would have appreciated having those lower speeds (8000-12000) for my application.

ATCs are really nice to have, but they are not an inexpensive option...extra hardware, more expensive spindle because of the need to support the quick change inserts, often higher licensing fees for the CNC control software (depending on which software a machine uses), etc.

For my particular machine, the ATC upgrade cost was about $1200 over and above the equivalent non-ATC air cooled spindle on my other machine. This upgrade cost includes an assortment of NBT-30 tool holders, ER25 collets, coolant system, and spindle mount adapter. The CNC control software I am currently using (Centroid CNC12 and Mach3) both facilitate automatic tool change operation at no additional cost.

David

[David Buchhauser]

There are trade offs between water and air cooled. Air cooled are generally more expensive, water cooled you have to use water. My machine came setup with water cooled and hoses are run thru the tracks so movement is not an issue. I use a 5 gal bucket with a lid and a pond pump. Once setup it really isn't an issue.
Just like David, I have upgraded to an ATC spindle so cost of water cooled and air cooled came into play. Plus if I ran an air cooled With the ATC I would have to purchase a larger air compressor to have the air flow to cool the lowest bearings so that's another expense.

These spindles are basically throw away spindles so i don't mind saving money. There is the issue of weight depending on your machine and what it can handle. The weight isn't an issue for mine.

Hi Bobby,

I am curious why a larger air compressor would be required to run an air cooled spindle. My air cooled spindle has an integral electric cooling fan that forces fresh air thru the spindle. The other air cooled spindles I have looked at seem to also have an electric cooling fan. Have you seen any that use compressed air (as opposed to an electric fan) for the spindle cooling?

David

[bobby milam]

Not sure about all but many of the air cooled atc spindles use both. The electric fan but they also use air from the compressor to cool the lower ceramic bearings. It's something like 6-7 cfm around 35 psi I believe. It's enough that people with a60gal tank say it cycles the compressor every 15-30 minutes.

Yours isn't an ATC is it? That would be why different bearings I guess.

Im not an expert on air cooled spindles but when I was shopping for the ATC that it's what my research found. I would have preferred air cooled but not at their cost like you had found