California to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2035

[Jim Matthews]

I would have to save at least $200 a month by owing the Pacifica plug-in for me to break even. I averaged about $105 a month on gasoline over the past 12 months. I could probably make at least half of my trips on electricity only...

Hybrids and pure EVs are answering a question nobody really asks when gasoline is so cheap.

FWIW - if you're keen turn use less gas, a secondhand PRIUS appears to be a durable choice.
They're bigger inside than they look, are surprisingly zippy (at the expense of fuel economy ) and routinely survive 200,000 miles of use on the original drive train - batteries included.

Larger vehicles are slowly coming available, as shown by Amazon's first in class large EV delivery vans. I would *not recommend * the Chrysler hybrid power train, which is largely derived from FIAT research.

Nissan, with all its problems, has a decade of real world experience in their LEAF EV.
The e-NV200 is derived from the LEAF platform and has real potential in the local delivery segment. I waited until after the first model year was over before selecting my new ride.

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/ne...s/e-nv200.html

[Doug Garson]

I don't really understand their chart. It appears they are using a $30,000 cost to buy a Grand Caravan SE when I paid about $22,000 with taxes and fees. I would have to save at least $200 a month by owing the Pacifica plug-in for me to break even. I averaged about $105 a month on gasoline over the past 12 months. I could probably make at least half of my trips on electricity only, but that doesn't save me more than $50 a month.

Could it be because they are basing it on a 2019 model vs your 2016 model? Or maybe you just got a better deal. It doesn't appear possible to run their calculator for older model years. It appears the difference in the "True cost to own" between the two vehicles fluctuates each year which I don't understand, I would have expected it to trend towards zero if the more expensive vehicle had lower operating costs.

[Lee DeRaud]

It appears the difference in the "True cost to own" between the two vehicles fluctuates each year which I don't understand, I would have expected it to trend towards zero if the more expensive vehicle had lower operating costs.

Note that "true cost to own" includes (or certainly should include) depreciation. The difference will clearly vary as different make/model cars go through out-of-synch upgrade/redesign cycles, and in any case is working from old data.

[Doug Dawson]

One nice thing about EV’s is that they increase the size of your garage, because you wouldn’t ever want to park them in there. This is good for the woodworker!

have you ever seen how difficult it is to deal with them when they go on fire?

[Doug Garson]

One nice thing about EV’s is that they increase the size of your garage, because you wouldn’t ever want to park them in there. This is good for the woodworker!

have you ever seen how difficult it is to deal with them when they go on fire?

BMWS INCLUDING MINI COOPERS ARE CATCHING FIRE WHEN PARKED, AND NO ONE KNOWS WHY

Seems like BMWs and Minis do too! Full disclosure my wife has a Mini so this story caught my eye. https://drivetribe.com/p/bmws-includ...SDeHyXoVGe0w1g

[Bob Turkovich]

I would *not recommend * the Chrysler hybrid power train, which is largely derived from FIAT research.

Nissan, with all its problems, has a decade of real world experience in their LEAF EV.
The e-NV200 is derived from the LEAF platform and has real potential in the local delivery segment. I waited until after the first model year was over before selecting my new ride.

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/ne...s/e-nv200.html

Please explain where you determined that the Chrysler Pacifica power train was "largely derived" from FIAT research (before I bother associates that I worked with in my pre-retirement days in Powertrain to confirm/deny). They certainly could share expertise but it wouldn't be a "drop-in".

The Pacifica Hybrid was introduced for the 2017MY so it has four years of real world experience (not quite 10 but more than one...).

The two vehicles are not quite going after the same market. The Pacifica seats 7 vs. 5 for the Nissan and has 25% more cargo capacity. It does cost significantly more than the Leaf.

[Doug Dawson]

Please explain where you determined that the Chrysler Pacifica power train was "largely derived" from FIAT research (before I bother associates that I worked with in my pre-retirement days in Powertrain to confirm/deny). They certainly could share expertise but it wouldn't be a "drop-in".

The Pacifica Hybrid was introduced for the 2017MY so it has four years of real world experience (not quite 10 but more than one...).

I’m not familiar with the current tech tree, but they do go on fire:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...e-risk-recall/

So they’re not _completely_ unrelated to Fiats.

[Jim Matthews]

"Magnetti Marelli has made several announcements to the Italian press about supplying electronics and possibly motors for the SI-EVT transmission."

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmi...automatic.html

I have no doubt you have more experience in this field; I have none. That said, FIAT is not known for reliable products.

The Nissan van is not currently available in the US, but does have a mature parts bin behind it if it arrives on out shores.

To be clear, I drove a plug in hybrid three trouble free years - but prefer the relative simplicity of a purely electric drivetrain.

Toyota disproves my reluctance to recommend the layout - but I'm old enough to remember breaker point distributors and front drum brakes.

[Jim Matthews]

One nice thing about EV’s is that they increase the size of your garage, because you wouldn’t ever want to park them in there.

I have parked and charged my car in the garage the past three years. Most EV driver's do the same. That's sort of the point.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electric...ng%20at%20home.

Perhaps you have a table that shows how many times this has happened?

How many traditional gas powered cars burned in their garages in the same period?

Do you actually *know* something, or is it just a gut feeling?

Do tell....

[Doug Dawson]

I have parked and charged my car in the garage the past three years. Most EV driver's do the same. That's sort of the point.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electric...ng%20at%20home.

Perhaps you have a table that shows how many times this has happened?

How many traditional gas powered cars burned in their garages in the same period?

Do you actually *know* something, or is it just a gut feeling?

Do tell....

Okay!

I already quoted you (?) the article about the Fiat/Chrysler product. There have been well-publicized news reports of Teslas bursting into flames while parked.

There have also been news reports (and recalls) about (say) Ford products bursting into flames while parked in people's garages, burning their houses down. It's not that uncommon. The difference with EV's is the intense difficulty of putting out the fire after it has started. There have been cases where the fire has been put out, only to have it spontaneously restart hours later (say, in the wrecking yard.) These things are crazy and insidious.

Good luck with all that.

It's a good argument for having your charger set up on the _outside_ of your garage.

[Jim Matthews]

There have been well-publicized news reports of Teslas bursting into flames while parked.

Really? Certainly you can produce lots of these, if they're common.

There have also been news reports (and recalls) about (say) Ford products bursting into flames while parked in people's garages, burning their houses down. It's not that uncommon.

The difference with EV's is the intense difficulty of putting out the fire after it has started. There have been cases where the fire has been put out, only to have it spontaneously restart hours later (say, in the wrecking yard.) These things are crazy and insidious.

Being insidious, verifiable accounts should be easy to find.
You have those to support this claim?

It's a good argument for having your charger set up on the _outside_ of your garage.

Hardly. Inside your garage, out of the elements where it's warm and dry is the ideal place to "refuel", unlike gas stations.

http://jwkblog.com/wordpress/fire-at...20every%20year.

[Brian Elfert]

Could it be because they are basing it on a 2019 model vs your 2016 model? Or maybe you just got a better deal. It doesn't appear possible to run their calculator for older model years. It appears the difference in the "True cost to own" between the two vehicles fluctuates each year which I don't understand, I would have expected it to trend towards zero if the more expensive vehicle had lower operating costs.

I considered getting a 2019 model right before COVID hit and I could get the same SE model for within $1,000 of what I paid for a 2016. I ultimately decided I would rather keep mine until there might be better alternatives in four or five years. They also got rid of the stow and go seating for the second row in the SE model which I use all the time.

[Bill Dufour]

The Tesla that caught on fire was not really tesla's fault. They gave the owner a new one as a free repalcement. Tehy took it back a month later when they determined the real cause of the fire. The drive took a handgun and shot down into the main battery next to the drivers seat. I think it was only one shot before the battery caught fire and could not be put out. What would happen with an ICE car if you fired one round into the gas tank while driving?
Bill D.

https://bgr.com/2018/12/17/tesla-fir...-pack-lawsuit/

[Doug Dawson]

The Tesla that caught on fire was not really tesla's fault.

“The” Tesla?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/28420/...ecall-in-sight

Musk has a habit of defending his company, of course. ;^)

[Doug Dawson]

That article refers to vehicle fires on the road, not parked.

And you’re ignoring the much greater difficulty of putting out a high-energy-battery-fed fire, that I pointed out earlier, and is at the heart of my concern.

There are many boosters of EV’s, for sure.

I had to stop smoking my pipe some years ago. Now let’s all play nice before this thread goes the way of the global warming thread. :-/