Thin pins..

[Patrick Walsh]

After fussing around grain and color matching again it was time to edge and face joint then plane to almost final dimension.

My laminations at this stage are two boards. I will again be able to one more time send this all over and through the machine as these laminations are still under 16". I will then be left with two laminations that i will then glue and and finish with hand planes. Hopefully just a smoother if all goes well?

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This all took me long enough i was able to start pulling my Roubo legs out of their clamps. I got really really fussy with my edge joints as the eyes of the BEM want to tear out here and there when edge jointing. I kept going back until i had perfect edges to join.
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My shop is overun by laminations..

[Patrick Walsh]

With all my clamps being used again i turned back to my Roubo legs. Ill update that progress over in the bench build thread.

While im here i will bring the rest of this project up to speed. I had built a couple doors for the case a couple or few weeks ago now. I have lost track, at the time i was way to busy to document it here.

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Like the rest of the case the styles and rails are 1" thick African Mahogany. The pannles are i believe big leaf maple. I purchased about 600bf of BEM a number of months ago for a very fair price. It was kinda just a take it and hope for the best kinda thing.

Anyway i started picking through my piles of lumber for boards that looked to have decent figure in them and that would also allow for no laminations and a solid single pannel. I cut my stock to length as to make the best use of the lumber jointing. Muchof the BEM stock i purchased is are 12-13'. Is has some wane, twist, cup so forth and so on. Cutting the stock to length helps negate some of this.

Anyway it turned out the board i picked was not BEM but it was nice lumber non the less.. After more time spent himming and howing over picking just the right boards i decided to go with it" my plan for the case was all BEM and African Mahogany. As you can see i have BEM throught my shop. BEM is clearly my favorite wood species followed by teak. Then probably rosewoods, bubinga and mahogany. I almost through this lumber back innthenpile and hunted out some door panel quality BEM.

Around the same time i made the doors i also disasembled my carcass as to put the sliding dovetails in the sides to accept the shelfs. The bottom drawer will also recieve a dovetailed divider. The vertical sections of my shelfs will also have sliding dovetails. They can however be done after my back panel is in and my beaded face frame applied. Inhad bever attempted a sliding dovetail prior, i learnt alot this day. Being the time i had put into the "thin pins" of my carcass there was no room for errror. It was a hyper focused day in the shop, "my favorite kind" and exactly why i do this.

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Thats about it for this project for now. Depending tomorrow i may glue up the panel laminations into two pieces. I could then do The final glue up sunday and think about getting the case pulled apart to put the dado in it to accpt the back panel. With that done i could finaly put the face frame on. With ten drawers total to make along with all the internal dividers this project still has a long way to go. Crap the hardeware is four months out from the time implace the prder" being kinda broke right now and each hinge being $200 i habe yet to order it.

[William Fretwell]

Not only are small pins hard to make but the joint strength will be poor. Those little pins can break so easily. Why have super strong tails and very weak pins?

[Derek Cohen]

My view is subjective. I do not know of any objective testing.

Thin pins are a design feature, and as such should be used where form and function meet appropriately.

I would not use thin pins on cabinet carcases. It is unnecessary there as they are not usually seen, and not recommended as there is likely to be structural stress (the carcase twisting).

Drawers - in particular those in "fine furnishings" - are a different case. The thin pins look elegant in my eyes ... in the right circumstances. I would not use them for heavy-use chests. Thin pins on drawers in higher end pieces are likely more than strong enough for the task - in any event, I cannot imagine anyone using drawers like these in a rough manner. I have not had one fail - but I have only been making such fine pins for about 10 years.

As with all things wooden, wood moves. In the case of drawers, racking is the enemy to avoid. Poorly made drawers will stress the construction. Well-made drawers are less likely to be stressed this way, and needs to be a given if one is considering fine pins in the design of a drawer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Walsh]

Only to see if i could do it.

Pretty much the only reason i build stuff in my spare time.

This piece started as a test peiece to work out making beaded face frames for a kitchen im building for work.

Like anything i build in my free time i normally have to make construction techniques a challenge coupled with the use of materials that i really like to keep me interested.

Im pretty sure the chest will hold up just fine screwed to the wall the rest of its life. If the crap plywood cabs i and every other cabinet maker make for residential kitchen baths so forth and so on im sure this will be just fine.

I dont see myself making pins this thin again but it was good for me as imlearnt or thing or two. Plus i really enjoyed it as i really like stuff that forces me to be VERY VERY VERY careful..

Plus think of all the sliding dovetails holding this chest toether. It will be like a tick tack toe board inside. I could be wrong but provided i get the thing glued up without a catastrophe i think long tern the carcass will hold up just fine..

Maybe im wrong. If so the good news is i get to build another tool chest. Betbthe second one would be way better than the first one..

Not only are small pins hard to make but the joint strength will be poor. Those little pins can break so easily. Why have super strong tails and very weak pins?

[Bill McCarthy]

I'm just beginning down this path of wood working. You guys are so much more knowledgeable and skillful than I, I don't think I have enough years left to be able to catch up.

Throughout this thread, I saw a couple mentions regarding the thin pins being a challenge to skill and for aesthetics. Is there any other reason for using them?

Along that same line of thinking, why would you use different sizes to begin with? In my mind, I would be looking to make each equal (by the way, I've never made a dovetail joint). What determines the size of pins and tails to use when laying out this joint?

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along nicely Patrick! I am enjoying the door panels!

Bill,

In addition to the aesthetic reasons mentioned, thin pins ensure that the dovetails were cut by hand, and so it is a nod to the increased skill level required. On another forum one member maintains that they were used so commonly in traditional drawer making because the hard pins would compress the pine drawer sides with ease, minimizing reliance on a perfect cutout.

[Mark Salomon]

There are many different methods for dovetailing. All require that you be able to see your work clearly, mark precisely where you want to cut, and be able to cut accurately. Derek uses blue tape to good effect because it only require one mark and it is easier to see when cutting to the line of the pin. I make sure that I have good lighting, wear an optivisor magnifier, and use a slightly dull marking knife. The dull knife leaves a wider mark which I then highlight with a 7mm lead. At least with my marking knife the lead leaves a darker mark on each edge of the marked line with the center slightly lighter making it easier to cut on the waste line. The most important thing is practice, practice and more practice. I finished a kitchen remodel a few months ago that had 19 dovetailed drawers, today I glued up 11 drawers for another project. I can finally say that I am comfortable making dovetails that don't need much fitting. Thin dovetails are elegant and look great in certain instances. By all means aspire to be able to make these but maybe you should start with easier goals first.

[Patrick Walsh]

Bill you have plenty of time!

This is only my third project cutting dovetails by hand.

I started with a simple box. That came out ok. I cut two of the four sides a couple times before i was happy enought to move on and chaulk the project up to learning. I have still yet to glue the box up but it does sit on my bench and i do use it.

My second dovetail project was the four drawers you might see in some of my pictures made of BEM. Those taught me how to layout and cut real quick and fairly proficiently. At least for me the pressure of working with a material i have a limited amount of and the high stakes it creates for not screwing up helps me keep my focus. Also the repedative nature of four boxes one right after or along side the other meant the skill got buried in my head and hands.

Once you understand the process of laying them out its just a matter of practice and paying attention. I say paying attention not because you might screw up but because you will screw up and when you do you need to be paying attention enough so that you understand what you did wrong and how to correct and avoid it from continuing to happen.

Imop dovetails are not that hard once you understand what really is a very simple formula. Let me re phrase mediocre dovetails are not that hard, perfect ones are not impossible but take some dedication and a desire and willingness to pay attention 100% to whhat you are doing and at the least the desire for perfection. If you can do that you can cut great dovetails in my oppinion.

Dont let time or the a idea that "you dont have enough time to catch up" stop you from trying. I often find a way to use the same type feelings or intuition to drive me to succesfully attaing woodworking skills i would like you otherwise reserve for someone with much more tallent.

A framer is blown away by my skills. I am blown away by a skill of a teue furniture maker. Somforth and so on. I try to not ever think for a minute anything is beyond me. So far it generally works other than becoming independently wealthy and or successful in business. That is reserved for someone else so it seems

We all have our path right, the key is enjoying what you got.

I'm just beginning down this path of wood working. You guys are so much more knowledgeable and skillful than I, I don't think I have enough years left to be able to catch up.

Throughout this thread, I saw a couple mentions regarding the thin pins being a challenge to skill and for aesthetics. Is there any other reason for using them?

Along that same line of thinking, why would you use different sizes to begin with? In my mind, I would be looking to make each equal (by the way, I've never made a dovetail joint). What determines the size of pins and tails to use when laying out this joint?

[William Fretwell]

For me, proportion in design is everything. Thin pins on a small jewellery box may look elegant.
This large carcass may well survive construction but until it receives a back the wracking forces are substantial.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ill be perfectly honest. The carcass is rock solid ever since i put the lowe divider in for the first row of drawers. Remember the dividers are all sliding dovetails.

Even prior to the sliding dovetailed divider when the carcass was just hed together by my tiny tiny pins the carcass did not rack at all. The tails and pins are cut so tight i have to us a mallet and block to pound the whole thing together.

Non the less i get this is not the traditional approach to dovetailing a carcass for very practicle reasons. I have never been much a very practicle person. I Guess maybe that is something to i could strive for.

For me, proportion in design is everything. Thin pins on a small jewellery box may look elegant.
This large carcass may well survive construction but until it receives a back the wracking forces are substantial.

[William Fretwell]

Yes it's very satisfying when things fit like that. The photo of the varnished pieces is intriguing, no idea what those squares are for?

[Andy Nichols]

Also take a look at the Cosman method, which is just a slight variation from the detailed method in the book "Encyclopedia of Furniture Making"

If one follows the process closely there is no reason to test fit, in fact in most cases the joint won't come apart anyway....

Andy-- mos maiorum

[Bill McCarthy]

Bill you have plenty of time!

This is only my third project cutting dovetails by hand.

I started with a simple box. That came out ok. I cut two of the four sides a couple times before i was happy enought to move on and chaulk the project up to learning. I have still yet to glue the box up but it does sit on my bench and i do use it.

My second dovetail project was the four drawers you might see in some of my pictures made of BEM. Those taught me how to layout and cut real quick and fairly proficiently. At least for me the pressure of working with a material i have a limited amount of and the high stakes it creates for not screwing up helps me keep my focus. Also the repedative nature of four boxes one right after or along side the other meant the skill got buried in my head and hands.

Once you understand the process of laying them out its just a matter of practice and paying attention. I say paying attention not because you might screw up but because you will screw up and when you do you need to be paying attention enough so that you understand what you did wrong and how to correct and avoid it from continuing to happen.

Imop dovetails are not that hard once you understand what really is a very simple formula. Let me re phrase mediocre dovetails are not that hard, perfect ones are not impossible but take some dedication and a desire and willingness to pay attention 100% to whhat you are doing and at the least the desire for perfection. If you can do that you can cut great dovetails in my oppinion.

Dont let time or the a idea that "you dont have enough time to catch up" stop you from trying. I often find a way to use the same type feelings or intuition to drive me to succesfully attaing woodworking skills i would like you otherwise reserve for someone with much more tallent.

A framer is blown away by my skills. I am blown away by a skill of a teue furniture maker. Somforth and so on. I try to not ever think for a minute anything is beyond me. So far it generally works other than becoming independently wealthy and or successful in business. That is reserved for someone else so it seems

We all have our path right, the key is enjoying what you got.

I hear what you're saying about being wealthy; I'm pretty sure God doesn't want me to be a millionaire.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not afraid to try. My birthday was last week; I turned 58. I've begun working on building a drafting table for a friends 13 year old son. This is my first furniture project since I was in wood shop back in 8th grade. I just don't think I have enough time left to acquire 40 years of experience doing this stuff. (On the drafting table, I decided to use box joints because to me, they seemed to be more straight forward and easier to make.)

[Patrick Walsh]

Patients grasshoper!

One thing at a time..

For me, proportion in design is everything. Thin pins on a small jewellery box may look elegant.
This large carcass may well survive construction but until it receives a back the wracking forces are substantial.