A new "I'm about to buy my first real table saw" thread

[Mike Dowell]

I'm going to drive to the Delaware Woodcraft and see the SS in person. It's only about an hour from me and I definitely don't want to pay $250 for shipping. I can see both sides of the flesh sensing argument. If I'm being honest, I'm actually a bit frightful when I'm using the table saw. No matter how smoothly the piece is running through, I'm always just waiting for some weird thing to happen and the piece to go flying through the air. I think in a sense, it's good to fear your table saw a little, because you're always careful, but on the other end of that argument, although I've never had any accidents, I'm guessing that when something bad happens on a table saw, it happens in a nano-second. the 36" SS PCS is definitely a sexy machine, but I do have an issue with paying for a feature I may never use. Actually, I watched a YouTube review of that saw, and the guy said that wet wood will also trigger the sensor, and there was one other situation that can trigger it besides flesh. That sounds like what Robert Engel was talking about. If I'm ripping a piece of wood and the sensor trips, I'm going to be more than irritated. However, if I somehow find my hand in contact with the blade, I'll be more than happy if I don't get injured.

Geez, what a complicated decision. In the end, that's why I came here to talk about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that SS and PM are the two big names. I'm looking around Woodcraft online, and I don't even see a less expensive alternative to the SS anyhow. The SS is $2900 and the PM2000 is $2959. So, that being said, if I decided that I wasn't willing to pay extra for the safety feature of the SS, that doesn't leave me with any options. There's JET and Grizzly, but what about the quality?

[Mike Dowell]

The SS is an excellent table saw and if I couldn't have a slider it would be a SawStop - but a sliding table attachment does not turn a table saw into a Sliding Table Saw, it's merely an attachment 10", 12", 14" away from the sawblade which defeats the purpose. The only way to take full advantage of a sliding table is to have it right against the sawblade. On a true slider you can secure a workpiece the size and shape of a Quarter to the table and make the cut without the use of jigs the same goes for thin rips like for edgebanding or any other rips and the list goes on and you don't need the rip fence for that either which eliminates the risk of a kickback.
About 15 years ago I was looking at the sliding table attachment DeWalt was offering for their 746 hybrid saw (I bought mine in the mid 90's) and I was close to pulling the trigger when I realized this shortcoming and opted for a Felder, it took me a few years to get there but I haven't regretted for 1 second .

John, I love that little sign behind the saw. I recently saw a bumber sticker which reminded me of that - it read "Criminal control, not gun control".

[John Lankers]

Mike, I'm far from qualified of being a teacher, but I can tell you that having fear regarding powertools is the wrong approach, you want to use them with respect and be prepared if the unexpected happens, the table saw is only one of many tools that can hurt you. The big remaining issue the SawStop can't eliminate completely is kickback - so make sure you try not to stand in front of the blade. This is one advantage of a sliding table saw standing in front of the saw is awkward and it becomes second nature after a while to stand beside the slider at all times.
Regarding your question Powermatic vs. SawStop I believe the SawStop comes out on top in reviews (even though I'm not a fan of their business approach), having said that others are very happy with their Grizzly - now you're back to square 1 .

[Mike Dowell]

Mike, I'm far from qualified of being a teacher, but I can tell you that having fear regarding powertools is the wrong approach, you want to use them with respect and be prepared if the unexpected happens, the table saw is only one of many tools that can hurt you. The big remaining issue the SawStop can't eliminate completely is kickback - so make sure you try not to stand in front of the blade. This is one advantage of a sliding table saw standing in front of the saw is awkward and it becomes second nature after a while to stand beside the slider at all times.
Regarding your question Powermatic vs. SawStop I believe the SawStop comes out on top in reviews (even though I'm not a fan of their business approach), having said that others are very happy with their Grizzly - now you're back to square 1 .

Yeah, I'm just a little timid when it comes to the table saw. My father in law has an old uni with no riving knife, and he'll just lay wood down on top of the spinning blade - he's fearless(and maybe foolish). But anyhow, I have a grizzly bandsaw, and I find the quality mediocre - at least for that tool. It's decent, but then again, it was only $600. I want my new table saw to be nothing short of amazing. I'd buy that Hammer K3 slider in a heart beat but I'm really stuck on a $3000 budget. I *could* spend more, but if I do, what's the sense of a budget?

[Prashun Patel]

Mike, I have the PCS 3hp Saw Stop. It's a wonderful saw. Safety features aside, I would put it head to head with a Unisaw or PM. I mean, even if it didn't have the technology, it's a great saw. It's accurate, easy to put together and tune. The riving knife and blade guard are well designed and easy to swap out.

About the only reason I could see not to get a Sawstop is if you truly don't care about the sensing technology and you do a lot of dadoing. The dado blade requires a special brake, so you'll be swapping between two blades and two brakes.

I appreciate sticking to a budget. Long term, you may be buying a few brakes (count on a misfire or two by hitting a miter gauge). For many, this is a minor price to pay, but for those indifferent to the technology, this can be an annoyance.

Also, if you cut a lot of wet wood (I prefer to do that on the bandsaw) you may find yourself having to bypass the brake occasionally.

All this is to say, the SS technology is nice, and they've made it about as easy to use as possible, but it's not without ANY extra effort vis a vis a 'regular' saw.

My biggest advice is to pick a saw that is easy to align and has a riving knife that's easy to swap in and out...

[John Lankers]

Yeah, I'm just a little timid when it comes to the table saw. My father in law has an old uni with no riving knife, and he'll just lay wood down on top of the spinning blade - he's fearless(and maybe foolish). But anyhow, I have a grizzly bandsaw, and I find the quality mediocre - at least for that tool. It's decent, but then again, it was only $600. I want my new table saw to be nothing short of amazing. I'd buy that Hammer K3 slider in a heart beat but I'm really stuck on a $3000 budget. I *could* spend more, but if I do, what's the sense of a budget?

I know this can lead you on a dangerous path, but what if you contact your nearest Felder Rep. and just ask if they have something used or are willing to work with you, you never know. Felder in Calgary has my CF531 Pro in their showroom trying to sell it locally bec. of it's weight and footprint. They also have some aggressive sales certain times of the year, you have to be there at the right time. I ordered in May and the savings are significant.

[David Kumm]

If you do a lot of panel work, longer is better in the slider world but if mainly doing hardwood cutting and occasional panel, short is good. The sliding table sits flush with the fixed and you use a traditional rip fence. Ripping on a mid size slider can be a compromise. I like ripping on a 10', not on 6'. Do most of it on the short stroke. There aren't many newer short sliders- don't know why but there are some. I like the old ones that crosscut 36" when you need it but lock down otherwise. There are some short Euro saws too.DSCN2883.jpgDSCN2905.jpg

[glenn bradley]

Ok, well through all of this, I think I've decided that I'm going to be looking in the 36" fence category.

First a disclaimer; I own a Saw Stop PCS 3HP with the 52" fence. An unexpected windfall allowed me to make that purchase. Otherwise I would probably still be happily using my 1-3/4" hybrid with a Biesemeyer fence.

The reason for my post is to address the rip capacity question. I use a rip fence for so much more than just ripping but, let's not go there right now. My hybrid had a 30" capacity. I moved the front tube over one set of holes and made that a 40" capacity. 30" was too short most of the time. 40" was plenty most of the time.

When I bought the new saw I had the choice of 36" or 52" (I was not interested in the Premium fence). I had the room and knew from experience that 40" was mostly enough so, for the $100 I went with the 52". I can see that 36" would probably be plenty for most folks (including me) most of the time. If not, the Saw Stop Bies-clone front tube can be shifted over to give you more capacity for zero cost at a near zero effort.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

You'll never find parts for the Delta.

[Dennis Aspö]

The SS is an excellent table saw and if I couldn't have a slider it would be a SawStop - but a sliding table attachment does not turn a table saw into a Sliding Table Saw, it's merely an attachment 10", 12", 14" away from the sawblade which defeats the purpose. The only way to take full advantage of a sliding table is to have it right against the sawblade. On a true slider you can secure a workpiece the size and shape of a Quarter to the table and make the cut without the use of jigs the same goes for thin rips like for edgebanding or any other rips and the list goes on and you don't need the rip fence for that either which eliminates the risk of a kickback.
About 15 years ago I was looking at the sliding table attachment DeWalt was offering for their 746 hybrid saw (I bought mine in the mid 90's) and I was close to pulling the trigger when I realized this shortcoming and opted for a Felder, it took me a few years to get there but I haven't regretted for 1 second .

I disagree that it defeats the purpose. It's obviously not as good a solution, but it's still a good one. I got my fence real close to the blade, not a zero clearance though, since I don't think that'd work in the long run with blade swapouts and such, so I got half a cm of space. You can't affix things like you mentioned, but as I said, not as good a solution, but still very useful.

[Bill Adamsen]

Experience with numerous saw ... and owner of a Unisaw (30 years old) and slider, both used daily ... for a new tool, I too would vote Sawstop.

[John Lankers]

I disagree that it defeats the purpose. It's obviously not as good a solution, but it's still a good one. I got my fence real close to the blade, not a zero clearance though, since I don't think that'd work in the long run with blade swapouts and such, so I got half a cm of space. You can't affix things like you mentioned, but as I said, not as good a solution, but still very useful.

I admit, poor choice of words.
Thanks for clarifying.

[Pat Barry]

Pfffffth...........

GovCo has dictated that you cannot buy a new car w/o air bags - that is a straw man, Danny, my friend. Would you buy a new house wired with knob and tube wiring?

Buy what you want. Don't stick your hand in the blade, or in the jointer cutters, or in the band saw blade, or under the DP quill, or beneath the CMS blade, or between the mortiser chisel and the target, or on the car door frame as you slam the door closed, or.....or....or...........or in front of the blade on Danny's bandmill...........

Sincerely,
SSS Central Committee

I agree totally with Kent!

[Robert Engel]

Mike,

I won't beat you up anymore than you have re:fear, but I suggest that's just lack of confidence and/or experience. This is why you're amazed at your father. An underpowered machine is more dangerous, IMO. Your "fear" could be related to that.

I submit there is a difference between fear and respect. Maybe that's what you mean. Every time I push the switch on my TS, my brain immediately registers the fact that this machine is very powerful, and I can get hurt. I am not scared of it I'm scared or myself!

The most important piece of advice, and this applies to every machine, is, take the time to examine your stock before you cut it. Sight down those boards. Check for loose knots. Never EVER try to straighten a bowed board against the fence that will keep you out of trouble. If the cut isn't going right, shut the machine off don't try to push it through.

Here are some things I ask myself before every cut:

Is it cupped, bowed, or warped? Are there loose knots, or any knots at all? Is the wood rough? Am I being too lazy to change to the correct blade? Do I have My punch blocks ar the ready? Should I use a feather board for the cut? Do I have the riving knife or splitter in place? Am I using the correct blade (yes!).

Not ready to make the cut yet. After all that, I make sure am I making the cut the safest way? Number one here is using the fence when I should be using a panel sled or xcut sled. Example a piece of plywood is 12x24 and I need 10x24. Very tempting to set the fence for 10" and run it through even with a splitter I've increased the danger of a cut that should be made on a xcut sled.

Risk also comes from letting your guard down and being in a hurry. We let our guard down because we've had a stretch of work that has gone very smoothly or because we are doing repetitive cuts and our mind numbs a bit until that one piece of wood with a knot or something wakes us up. A SS is not going to help you with this.

Also keep in mind the vast majority of TS injuries are from kickbacks and a SS is not going to help you with this, either.

I'm not saying don't buy the SS. I'm saying it's only going to keep you from ONE injury on ONE machine. If that's worth it to you, then get it.

I own an older model 3HP Jet Xacta saw and I will put it up against any saw out there.

Not an exhaustive review of safety, but what comes to my mind based on my experience. I hope this helps.

You'll do well with any of the saws you're looking at. Compared to what you have it will be like going from a VW bug to a Porsche 911.

[Pat Barry]

... Example a piece of plywood is 12x24 and I need 10x24. Very tempting to set the fence for 10" and run it through even with a splitter I've increased the danger of a cut that should be made on a xcut sled.

I disagree with this. Cutting a piece of plywood from 12 inch width to 10 inch width on a piece that is 24 inches is just about the safest cut you will ever make on a table saw. Using a crosscut sled ain't going to improve that at all and likely would make it worse. Now if you said you were going from 12x24 to 12x20, then I would agree with you.