Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 146

Thread: Large quantity batch question...

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Phil,
    I for one want Michael to do nothing but succeed. I want that for the sake of his family (who I don't know from a stranger) as it seems he has pinned his and their fate to this endeavor. I have no idea if his wife earns a great income or not but regardless I want him to succeed.

    Beyond that however you have to be realistic. I have no idea what an IT comparison would be but in virtually any venture you have to work within your limits taking risks with caution. This is all I have been saying.

    Regardless of your venture you have to be realistic and smart. Moreso now than ever.
    The picture of the cabinet as posted isn't terribly different than kitchen cabinet boxes being built in thousands of small shops all around the country, using fairly ordinary tools and utilizing the same [melamine] materials.

    This thread became all about why he can't, rather than how he could.

    People have acted like Michael was asking how to split atoms with his table saw.

  2. #77

    Splitting atoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    The picture of the cabinet as posted isn't terribly different than kitchen cabinet boxes being built in thousands of small shops all around the country, using fairly ordinary tools and utilizing the same [melamine] materials.

    This thread became all about why he can't, rather than how he could.

    People have acted like Michael was asking how to split atoms with his table saw.
    Rather people suggested splitting atoms with bandsaws, skilsaws and jig saws.

    Logical and economically viable methods have been suggested but you don't seem to like them because they aren't homegrown. That's fine Phil but let's pull back for a moment and realise that cutting these parts is likely the simplest part of this entire project. Your experience may be that your friends were not supportive, they wanted to see you fail. I think that what you are seeing here is people not wanting to watch someone drown so to speak.

    We are throwing around parts counts of a few thousand like it's no sweat while most folks here have yet to deal with parts counts of a hundred or perhaps even a few dozen.
    Last edited by Chris Fournier; 11-12-2013 at 10:16 PM.

  3. #78
    When building my kitchen cabinets recently, I had 2 options - (well 2 that made sense to me) ONE- machine the sides myself (truck in several sheets, cut to size, drill all the hinge and slide mount holes, assembly holes, etc. or TWO-- farm it out to a local shop and cut a check and drive off with my parts ready for assembly.
    That's right.I cut a check--- perfect parts, edge banded, drilled, and all the assembly hardwares - Ta-daaaa. I don't understand what the problem is or which part of "here is the easiest solution" is not being understood - To me it's a no brainer- Your cost is established w/ the shop doing the work, they supply all the materials, you drive up, load your truck, drive to the customers site and assemble on site. Done deal -
    Elvis isn't dead, he just went home Yes, I am a joker - Take it with a grain of salt

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    Rather people suggested splitting atoms with bandsaws, skilsaws and jig saws.

    Logical and economically viable methods have been suggested but you don't seem to like them because they aren't homegrown.

    That's fine Phil but let's pull back for a moment and realise that cutting these parts is likely the simplest part of this entire project. Your experience may be that your friends were not supportive, they wanted to see you fail. I think that what you are seeing here is people not wanting to watch someone drown so to speak.

    We are throwing around parts counts of a few thousand like it's no sweat while most folks here have yet to deal with parts counts of a hundred or perhaps even a few dozen.
    A few thousand? I thought we were talking 200 units, each comprised of nine parts. That is 1800 parts, not a few thousand. Am I missing parts?

    In your first post in this thread you said "Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation...Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money."

    Now that I post the Modulus, which is highly regarded and used in shops where they talk volume in lifts of melamine, you now say cutting the parts is the simplest part of the project. Now the problem is assembly.

    Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners.

    And nobody (that I'm aware of) has even asked how long he'd have to complete the cases.

    My point is, no matter what Michael says, you guys are going to toss up road-blocks. Your minds are made-up that it isn't possible to build 200 of these in a conventional shop.

    I say that is nonsense.

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by hank dekeyser View Post
    When building my kitchen cabinets recently, I had 2 options - (well 2 that made sense to me) ONE- machine the sides myself (truck in several sheets, cut to size, drill all the hinge and slide mount holes, assembly holes, etc. or TWO-- farm it out to a local shop and cut a check and drive off with my parts ready for assembly.
    That's right.I cut a check--- perfect parts, edge banded, drilled, and all the assembly hardwares - Ta-daaaa. I don't understand what the problem is or which part of "here is the easiest solution" is not being understood - To me it's a no brainer- Your cost is established w/ the shop doing the work, they supply all the materials, you drive up, load your truck, drive to the customers site and assemble on site. Done deal -
    That's great, but Michael is trying to win a bid. Each middle-man he adds, adds to his cost, and possibly makes him less competitive.

    You guys get that, right? Why even run the shop, why not sub everything out?

    Answer: Because you'll never win any bids. Because typically, the more work you can perform yourself, the more money you get to keep.

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    4,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    A few thousand? I thought we were talking 200 units, each comprised of nine parts. That is 1800 parts, not a few thousand. Am I missing parts?

    In your first post in this thread you said "Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation...Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money."

    Now that I post the Modulus, which is highly regarded and used in shops where they talk volume in lifts of melamine, you now say cutting the parts is the simplest part of the project. Now the problem is assembly.

    Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners.

    And nobody (that I'm aware of) has even asked how long he'd have to complete the cases.

    My point is, no matter what Michael says, you guys are going to toss up road-blocks. Your minds are made-up that it isn't possible to build 200 of these in a conventional shop.

    I say that is nonsense.
    I swore I would stop reading and replying to this post, but like the proverbial car crash, I just can't keep from looking. Gosh Phil, you make a great defender of all things Quixote. Hope that is a good comparison since I am a simple woodworker. Keep defending the Illinois entrepreneur if you must, but also respect the advice of those that have fought these battles over and over. A career in IT may not put you in the best position to judge advice given here from cabinetmakers with decades of experience. Sorry your friends did not support you and your business venture. Bummer!

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    A few thousand? I thought we were talking 200 units, each comprised of nine parts. That is 1800 parts, not a few thousand. Am I missing parts?

    In your first post in this thread you said "Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation...Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money."

    Now that I post the Modulus, which is highly regarded and used in shops where they talk volume in lifts of melamine, you now say cutting the parts is the simplest part of the project. Now the problem is assembly.

    Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners.

    And nobody (that I'm aware of) has even asked how long he'd have to complete the cases.

    My point is, no matter what Michael says, you guys are going to toss up road-blocks. Your minds are made-up that it isn't possible to build 200 of these in a conventional shop.

    I say that is nonsense.
    Yes Phil you are missing lots of parts. Perhaps the edging? Be it aluminum or banding these are parts. There are of course the fasteners whatever they may be as well, parts in my books too.

    No one has thrown up a road block that I can recall, certainly a few cautions about the road ahead but no road blocks.

    "Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners." - Just maybe the CNC sub-contractor would be delivering these parts unscathed as part of their bid! A road block of your own perhaps!

    To think that subbing out processes necessarily takes a chunk out of profitability is not the case. To think that doing it all in house maximizes profitability is not necessarily the case either.

    I agree with you 100% that we don't have all of the info to make a perfect decision here, only the OP can collect all of that info. I will be interested in the outcome of this thread and wish the OP the best of luck.

    Signing off of this one,


    Chris

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Western Nebraska
    Posts
    4,680
    You know, I come to this forum periodically for inspiration and a break from the day job. I do this until I get so fed up hearing why something can't be done a thousand different ways. It's fun when someone asks a question or comments in a way that inspires creative thought. It's the exact opposite when the hoard of naysayers start up. Seriously, there are as many ways to do something as there are people, enjoy their journey, they may be onto something.

    Michael, I personally think your new business venture is something I'd love to try, and I'm enjoying hearing about it. Thanks for sharing.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Coers View Post
    I swore I would stop reading and replying to this post, but like the proverbial car crash, I just can't keep from looking. Gosh Phil, you make a great defender of all things Quixote. Hope that is a good comparison since I am a simple woodworker. Keep defending the Illinois entrepreneur if you must, but also respect the advice of those that have fought these battles over and over. A career in IT may not put you in the best position to judge advice given here from cabinetmakers with decades of experience. Sorry your friends did not support you and your business venture. Bummer!
    So far nobody has told me how this display case is materially different than the kitchen cabinets being cranked out in small shops all around the country with the same tools Michael has at his disposal.

    None of the experts have explained why they didn't ask how long he'd have. I happen to know, do you? The answer would surprise you. And it really is the obvious question, BTW. No expert should miss that question, IMHO. Building 200 of these in a week is a completely different job than building 200 in (for example) twelve weeks. Completely different animal.

    Nobody mentioned the Modulus. I called a local cabinet shop and asked how to cut melamine and they said, "we use a Modulus, just Google it."

    And thanks for the sympathy but I think the point of the story was completely lost on you.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    So far nobody has told me how this display case is materially different than the kitchen cabinets being cranked out in small shops all around the country with the same tools Michael has at his disposal.
    I'll take a stab at this.

    On one of my first days as an engineer, one of the more experienced guys told me- "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can- copy what somebody else did". Many years later, this advice is still with me.

    Of course, even a garage shop can build a decent kitchen cabinet using the normal hobby level tools- jointer, planer, sliding table saw, shapers, line boring machine, pocket hole machine, etc. These are plywood box, face frame cabinets, with 5 piece doors. face frames pocket screwed together, with the pocket holes hidden between the frame and box. Boxes could be dadoed and nailed, screwed, or pocket holed together. With a normal face frame cabinet, there is plenty of room to hide the construction on the top, bottom, and back. Add some paint (it's fortunate that hand painted cabinets are in style right now), or a simple finish, and you are OK. Look around, and you can see lots of ways to put a normal cabinet together.

    Now for frameless cabinets, or melamine construction. If you take a look at what is normal, you see the melamine panel, and edgebanding. So yes, you need to cut the panel. So a SCORING SAW, or spindle based machine with compression bits is in order. Then the edgebanding. There is lots of debate over how much EDGEBANDER is enough, and it's all over my head, but it's safe to say a good edgebander is more complex than the whole rest of a woodshop put together. (feeding, gluing, multiple spindles, cutting-- edgebanders are complex) Then how to put the panels together. Also over my head, but I've seen horizontal-vertical boring machines that would be used for doweling. Or you need to drill for ready-to-assemble fasteners (another machine). If you ever want to make a cabinet, you need a hinge machine.

    Frameless cabinets are simple, but you need lots of high dollar machines to make them. Edgebanding with an old iron is not going to do it because if the edgebanding falls off the first question you would be asked is "did you apply the banding using the industry accepted method?"

    So after this investment, and an initial project, what are you (hypothetically) going to do? You have that edgebander payment to make. The easy answer is kitchen cabinets. The thing to do is to go to IKEA, and see what they have and how they do it.

    BUT, IKEA is making these melamine cabinets cheaper and better than you ever could on a small scale, and you can get some Swedish meatballs before you pick up the cabinets. BY the way, IKEA has the cabinets pre built, boxed, and ready to go, even as I am typing this.

    I'll just say, I am a life long do it yourselfer, I even mount and balance my own car tires to save a buck. But it seems to me that the opportunity cost here is mighty high, and the competition very steep. And people do not want their melamine cabinets to have craftsmanship, they want that extruded look.
    Last edited by Stephen Cherry; 11-13-2013 at 6:49 AM.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    So far nobody has told me how this display case is materially different than the kitchen cabinets being cranked out in small shops all around the country with the same tools Michael has at his disposal.
    With all do respect Phil, you see, this makes my point.

    You look at this box and see a box that is nothing more than a kitchen cabinet and think you could knockout a few hundred in your basement or garage.

    I on the other hand look at this box and see nothing like that.

    You compare it to an everyday melamine frameless box? Kitchen cabinets have concealed ends which allow for screwing or confirmats or any other means of mechanical fastening because no one is going to see the ends. If they are, generally a finished end panel is applied or some other means of fastening is used.

    I look at this box, and until told otherwise (which I have indirectly asked and addressed) and I see a box that is going to be, or could potentially be, viewed from all sides. This to me, thinking of this in an industry standards sort of way, that there will either be no exposed fasteners or if the customer allows, color matched plugs/caps/whatever. The no exposed would be my default. Without know the use, or if the maker is even allowed into the design process that would be my default.

    So no, to me this is nothing like a cabinet box. Is it the space shuttle? Absolutely not. Could I make it? Absolutely. Could Michael make it? Absolutely. Could you make 200 of them profitably? In house? No way in the hot place.

    Now you say, well if exposed fasteners and caps are allowable that simplifies things. Not really. Now you have precise drilling and counter boring so the end result is clean. All of which again should be chip free. All the edgebanding, an amount that could in no way be chunked off without a serious bander. Boring and doweling for the partitions. And so on.

    Then after that, you have the task of figuring out how you will squeeze that entire box dead tight, and fast, while you assemble. We're not talking about a few bar clamps and cauls here. Were talking about drawing, at a minimum, 7 parts, more than a dozen dowels, all at the same time, all square, and all tight.

    There are countless other minutia but...

    Now of course this could all be poof if the customer says they don't care if they see drywall screws and staples on the outside. I find this hard to believe with black two sided and the aluminum edges. Further, any commercial shop is going to set the standard and something near the style if construction I outlined AND still beat the price a small shop can do a lesser job at. So that will likely be your benchmark.

    Who knows, maybe Michael will throw out a 750/unit bid and no other shop will bite that worm..

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Cherry View Post
    I'll take a stab at this.

    On one of my first days as an engineer, one of the more experienced guys told me- "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can- copy what somebody else did". Many years later, this advice is still with me.
    Sounds like good advice for a newbie, but an innovation/creativity killer for a more experienced engineer, to be perfectly honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Cherry View Post
    Of course, even a garage shop can build a decent kitchen cabinet using the normal hobby level tools- jointer, planer, sliding table saw, shapers, line boring machine, pocket hole machine, etc. These are plywood box, face frame cabinets, with 5 piece doors. face frames pocket screwed together, with the pocket holes hidden between the frame and box.
    Stop there. You are apparently unaware there are small 2-3 man operations building frameless melamine kitchen cabinets. Everything you typed beyond that point, that frameless kitchen cabinets need lots of high dollar machines, etc., just really isn't accurate. In fact, frameless kitchen cabinets are easier/faster/cheaper to build than face-frame cabinets, IMHO. I have built both for my basement.

    I will agree that if you want to built them like Ikea, in those volumes, then yes, you need some expensive machines.

    And Ikea has come up several times in this thread. But many of you have failed to identify WHY Ikea cabinets are built like they are. And I didn't see Michael say anything that would indicate the customer would agree to this. Maybe they would, maybe they'd prefer it, maybe they'd not.

    Ikea cabinets are built RTA. They are designed for the consumer to assemble. And not with glue so much as cam locks. They are RTA, and RT-disassemble. The dowels are for alignment and strength, they aren't typically glued and again, the products typically rely on cam locks.

    Now, Michael's prospect may LIKE that. They could ship a flat pack to a site and have it assembled there. BUT, they might prefer preassembled pieces, assembled with glue and splines. If the prospect wanted RTA, they probably would have specified that in the request for bids, and Michael would have looked at that and said, "I'm out."

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Cherry View Post
    Boxes could be dadoed and nailed, screwed, or pocket holed together. With a normal face frame cabinet, there is plenty of room to hide the construction on the top, bottom, and back. Add some paint (it's fortunate that hand painted cabinets are in style right now), or a simple finish, and you are OK. Look around, and you can see lots of ways to put a normal cabinet together.

    Now for frameless cabinets, or melamine construction. If you take a look at what is normal, you see the melamine panel, and edgebanding. So yes, you need to cut the panel. So a SCORING SAW, or spindle based machine with compression bits is in order. Then the edgebanding. There is lots of debate over how much EDGEBANDER is enough, and it's all over my head, but it's safe to say a good edgebander is more complex than the whole rest of a woodshop put together. (feeding, gluing, multiple spindles, cutting-- edgebanders are complex) Then how to put the panels together. Also over my head, but I've seen horizontal-vertical boring machines that would be used for doweling. Or you need to drill for ready-to-assemble fasteners (another machine). If you ever want to make a cabinet, you need a hinge machine.

    Frameless cabinets are simple, but you need lots of high dollar machines to make them. Edgebanding with an old iron is not going to do it because if the edgebanding falls off the first question you would be asked is "did you apply the banding using the industry accepted method?"
    Go to eBay and type in "edgebander." If he got the contract, there are numerous products available for under $2K that would suit the bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Cherry View Post
    So after this investment, and an initial project, what are you (hypothetically) going to do? You have that edgebander payment to make. The easy answer is kitchen cabinets. The thing to do is to go to IKEA, and see what they have and how they do it.

    BUT, IKEA is making these melamine cabinets cheaper and better than you ever could on a small scale, and you can get some Swedish meatballs before you pick up the cabinets. BY the way, IKEA has the cabinets pre built, boxed, and ready to go, even as I am typing this.

    I'll just say, I am a life long do it yourselfer, I even mount and balance my own car tires to save a buck. But it seems to me that the opportunity cost here is mighty high, and the competition very steep. And people do not want their melamine cabinets to have craftsmanship, they want that extruded look.

    The Ikea comparisons are all missing the mark. I'm not sure if the client would even accept RTA cabinets. Have you ever shipped an RTA cabinet? They don't handle it well, they are designed to be assembled and sort of left alone. In a retail environment, they may not hold up very well.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    With all do respect Phil, you see, this makes my point.

    You look at this box and see a box that is nothing more than a kitchen cabinet and think you could knockout a few hundred in your basement or garage.

    I on the other hand look at this box and see nothing like that.

    You compare it to an everyday melamine frameless box? Kitchen cabinets have concealed ends which allow for screwing or confirmats or any other means of mechanical fastening because no one is going to see the ends. If they are, generally a finished end panel is applied or some other means of fastening is used.
    Not necessarily true. Next time you're at your doctor's office, inspect the cabinets in the examining room. You will often find an all-melamine cabinet with exposed melamine sides where the ends are banded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    I look at this box, and until told otherwise (which I have indirectly asked and addressed) and I see a box that is going to be, or could potentially be, viewed from all sides. This to me, thinking of this in an industry standards sort of way, that there will either be no exposed fasteners or if the customer allows, color matched plugs/caps/whatever. The no exposed would be my default. Without know the use, or if the maker is even allowed into the design process that would be my default.
    Yes, long splines or biscuits would be my choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    So no, to me this is nothing like a cabinet box. Is it the space shuttle? Absolutely not. Could I make it? Absolutely. Could Michael make it? Absolutely. Could you make 200 of them profitably? In house? No way in the hot place.
    We don't even know how much he'd charge or how long he'd have. To say that it can't be done profitably is relying on facts not in evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Now you say, well if exposed fasteners and caps are allowable that simplifies things. Not really. Now you have precise drilling and counter boring so the end result is clean. All of which again should be chip free. All the edgebanding, an amount that could in no way be chunked off without a serious bander. Boring and doweling for the partitions. And so on.

    Then after that, you have the task of figuring out how you will squeeze that entire box dead tight, and fast, while you assemble. We're not talking about a few bar clamps and cauls here. Were talking about drawing, at a minimum, 7 parts, more than a dozen dowels, all at the same time, all square, and all tight.

    There are countless other minutia but...

    Now of course this could all be poof if the customer says they don't care if they see drywall screws and staples on the outside. I find this hard to believe with black two sided and the aluminum edges. Further, any commercial shop is going to set the standard and something near the style if construction I outlined AND still beat the price a small shop can do a lesser job at. So that will likely be your benchmark.

    Who knows, maybe Michael will throw out a 750/unit bid and no other shop will bite that worm..
    They want 200 units, right? Not 750.

    Nonetheless, let me cut to the chase:

    Phil's method of assembly.

    (1) Cut pieces.
    (2) Band pieces.
    (3) Use router with edge guide and down-cut spiral bit to create slot for bottom.
    (4) Use router-table mounted 5/32" slotting bit to slot the ends of the sides/partition pieces.
    (5) Use spacer boards to align a biscuit cutter to cut slots in front/back.
    (6) Assemble units on their back, on sheets of MDF, on the floor. Use 3m glue guns on two biscuits per side of each side/partition, use PVA glue on others. The hot-melt glue is going to hold things tight enough until the PVA sets up.
    (7) Slide-in bottom.
    (8) Attach front using same method as #6.
    (9) Square the unit, and then shoot staples up through the bottom into each partition to keep the unit square.

    Build unit #2 right on top of the one you just finished.
    Last edited by Phil Thien; 11-13-2013 at 10:12 AM.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Beantown
    Posts
    2,831
    This thread has taken a turn for the worst! First off I think guys need to step back for a minute and put things into perspective. There's a difference between doing things for a hobby and doing them as a business. I'd guess if Michael wanted to build 200 boxes for his basement he'd get a lot more positive responses. He's not though, he's trying to do them as a business and do them profitably which is a completely different animal. As someone who's done this for a living for about 12 years now I feel there's a lot of "stuff" being thrown around. For instance the idea that subbing stuff out makes you less competitive is utter nonsense. Most successful small shops sub out doors and drawers these days. It's simple economics, you cannot build certain things as quickly to the same degree of quality as a shop that specializes in them. So my building doors and drawers in house actually makes me less competitive, not the other way around. It's not the more work you do the more money you keep, sorry, that's just blatantly false! If Michael has a CNC shop cut the parts he'll make more money, period. It may not makes sense to you if your not doing it for a living, but that's how it is. The fact of the matter is people who make the most money is in this business never touch a tool or a piece of wood. They open a show room and are middlemen.

    Second, the idea that you can make Euro cabinets easily without expensive equipment is again not quite accurate. While it's true that it's easy to make them in your basement, in the context of this discussion we're talking about making things profitably. And I'll say again, there's a big difference between doing something as a hobby and doing it to make a profit. To be competitive with Euro cabinets you really need at the very least some type of construction boring machine and a decent edgebander, not a little table top jobber that uses a hair dryer, but a good bander that'll apply at the very least 1mm pvc banding. Your just not going to be competitive using a cordless drill and an iron. Can you find an edgebander on e-bay for $2k....sure. Now can you find one that's working that needs little further work for $2k....not a chance. An edgebander is a very complicated machine with a lot of moving parts that have to be completely in sync and working properly. One day it works fine for you, the next....? If your lucky and really shop around you can probably find a decent one, get it shipped to your shop, and have a tech set it up for a little under $5k. Now I'm still not sure what banding this particular project requires so can't say whether or not Michael will need to have the banding outsourced or not? Generally speaking, anything commercial is going to need at least 1mm PVC if not thicker, therefore requiring an edgebander for application.

    I've seen a lot of those small 2 and 3 man shops go under over the last 12 years including a close friend of mines. It's not nearly as easy as some here seem to think it is. There's what it looks like from the outside looking in, and then there's the reality of doing it. I'm not posting here b/c I'm a pessimistic old curmudgeon that wants to see Michael fail, or b/c I enjoy the argument and stirring things up! I'm taking time to post b/c I've 12 years of getting up every day and trying to make a buck doing it. I've put everything I have into my business and I still come to work not knowing if I'll still be open next month. If you approach this business in the same way you approach a hobby you've already failed. If you bid projects sky high hoping nobody will bid against you, your going to fail. If you think your going to come in and re-invent the wheel every day, your going to fail. The point is not to convince Michael not to do this job, the point is to have him do it and make money at it so he can move on to the next job.

    JeffD

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    Not necessarily true. Next time you're at your doctor's office, inspect the cabinets in the examining room. You will often find an all-melamine cabinet with exposed melamine sides where the ends are banded.
    Right, and this is where Im saying there is another means of fastening, likely dowels, assembled in a case clamp.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    Yes, long splines or biscuits would be my choice.
    Sure, or dowels. I am not sure Id be comfortable with two biscuits and their minimal surface area to contain the partitions but again its depends on the intended use. Tossing the bins full of teddy bears or ping pong balls is a lot different than a heavier item.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    They want 200 units, right? Not 750.
    Not following, my reference to 750 was a $750/unit cost as compared to the example everyone is using of 400. The 400 number is just an example as I believe Michael stated he talked to another shop who said 400 but we dont know if thats what they would have charged for the completed piece, what theyd charge for the machining, or what theyd charge for the machining and material. Its never bothered to be corrected which is really irrelevant because no one is talking about whether 400 is fair or not, its just been used as an arbitrary number.

    My 750 comment was in relation to your statement of landing a job with a high bid because no one else would touch it. I highly doubt this will be the case if this item is put out to bid because its day in and day out work for a shop setup to make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    Phil's method of assembly.

    (1) Cut pieces.
    (2) Band pieces.
    (3) Use router with edge guide and down-cut spiral bit to create slot for bottom.
    (4) Use router-table mounted 5/32" slotting bit to slot the ends of the sides/partition pieces.
    (5) Use spacer boards to align a biscuit cutter to cut slots in front/back.
    (6) Assemble units on their back, on sheets of MDF, on the floor. Use 3m glue guns on two biscuits per side of each side/partition, use PVA glue on others. The hot-melt glue is going to hold things tight enough until the PVA sets up.
    (7) Slide-in bottom.
    (8) Attach front using same method as #6.
    (9) Square the unit, and then shoot staples up through the bottom into each partition to keep the unit square.

    Build unit #2 right on top of the one you just finished.
    Again, its a perfectly fine work flow however we will have to simply agree to disagree that competing in a commercial market you could ever be profitable without some fuzzy math (labor/shop time). A router table and router bits for panel machining alone would sink you. Spacer board and a hand biscuit cutter would sink you. No case clamping would sink you. The gaps alone would be a nightmare. The fact that the sides would be held on by 6 biscuits alone? Of course you could add more sure. Move to the spline (further alignment nightmares). It'd be worth a try for sure but I highly doubt gravity and a rubber mallet are going to get the biscuits/box together tight. Its a house of cards.

    Have you ever seen a melamine shop assemble boxes with dowels and a clamp? Its pretty impressive.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyzxz1HgwBM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq531yhjcBE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nug6WnhJcXY

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •