Wood River plane recall?

[Peter Quadarella]

In fact there is a whole system dedicated to the mantra "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it," called Six Sigma. Companies adopt this system and ignore (or eliminate) anything that is not measurable. It is widely used in corporations around the world.

[george wilson]

A problem with the Chinese,I've been told,is that they do not use or understand our types of tools,and especially machinery.You'd at least think they could understand a plane iron,though. Plus,they are under a lot of pressure to make things so cheap,I sometimes wonder how they do it at all.

A toolmaker from India was in the Gunsmith Shop in Williamsburg many years ago. He got into a conversation with my future journeyman toolmaker. He said they could make perfectly good quality things in India,but the Americans wouldn't pay for it. Subsequently,my journeyman got his company to make products that he sold. They are perfectly good products,too,and though they cost more to get made than the usual run of Indian things made to a low price,they are still good buys in our market.

There are still problems with delays,product development,and other things,but,by and large,the Indians continue to make good products for sale here,in this particular instance.

[Justin Green]

It makes me wonder why Stanley still makes planes at all... Had I started out less determined to use planes, their block plane would have soured me on the whole hand plane experience. Out of the box, the plane needs a sledge hammer to drive it through the wood.

[george wilson]

Justin,use a little sense!! A DEAD BLOW sledge hammer made of rubber would do less damage to the plane!!

[Mike Henderson]

In fact there is a whole system dedicated to the mantra "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it," called Six Sigma. Companies adopt this system and ignore (or eliminate) anything that is not measurable. It is widely used in corporations around the world.

I'm not sure if you're saying that quality has physical measures. A quality program eventually gets down to physical measures, such as how flat the sole of a plane is.

But the larger question is whether the customer puts any value on what you're physically measuring. Let's say that one company can hold their plane soles to within 0.000000000001 inch of flat, while another can hold their plane sole to within 0.000001 inch of flat. Is the first "higher quality"?

The answer is in whether the customer cares about it.

Engineers always want to say that quality is conformance to specifications - but the really important question is whether the specifications help you sell your product - whether the customer cares about those specifications.

So, sure, you can define quality to be anything you want it to be. But there's legions of people who shook their heads during bankruptcy proceedings and said, "But I always built a quality product." Yep, a quality product by their definition, but not by the customer's.

Mike

[Matty O'Brien]

Hi, I'm new here to the forum.
I just posted a quickie review in the other thread of the Woodriver #5 I picked up 2 days ago at Woodcraft in Canton, MI.
So, if there is a recall it may be regional, which seems weird, unless they have different batches of planes in different areas of the country. The guys at the Canton store hadn't heard anything about a recall.
BTW, I really like the plane and I have not had any problems with the cutter... YET!
I will post again if I do.

-Matt

[Tony Zaffuto]

Everything you've said Mike EXCEPT if you manufacture parts for the automotive industry. My company is fortunately only a "Tier Two" supplier, but even then you have never experienced a more convulted industry to supply.

We have just put to rest a sixteen month quality issue for a part that was to print but had issues because the customer's engineering was not robust enough (their words) but it still cost us a mid five figure amount because "we did not anticipate for the customer their lack of engineering". Go figure.

Even with some of the better tools available, most purchasers and/or virtually every experienced user expects to do some degree of fettling to bring the tool to their degree of satisfaction. I don't want to imply that price point is a barometer of finish and useability but it's definitely a help, as are these forums (except when emotions get involved).

T.Z.

[Brad Patch]

Problem with quality is it's nearly impossible to measure. It's sort of like art, 'I don't know if it's art, but I like it". Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is all about the subject. I think the problem with many companies is they can't measure it, so they quit thinking about it. They aren't willing to make the leap of faith and commit time and effort regardless.

Show me a company that has stopped thinking about the ability to measure things and I'll show you a company that's not going to last in today's environment. Quality systems as outlined by the International Organization of Standards (ISO) are a lot more than using a measuring tool to ensure size tolerances. The standards outlined in ISO can be applied to diverse business such as Bakeries, Funeral Homes and obviously companies that make a physical product. In essense the ISO elements strive to ensure that everybody in a company, using written instructions, is responsibe for their piece of a quality product. The old Inspection theory simply weeded out non-conforming parts. Its expensive to reroute these parts for rework or potential scrapping. Its deadly for a company to let non-conforming products get in the hand of the consumer. Bad products can and do get into the consumers hands, but there needs to be an established, written policy which addresses this.

Companies go to great expense to develop a ISO program and when their Quiality System has been certified by an independant agency they usually have a big banner made and attach to the outside of their building. Most of us have seen these banners but may not have know what they ment.

[george wilson]

Please note: I placed a ? mark behind the Recall. I don't know if it is a recall or not. All i know is that the Richmond store told me that there was something wrong with the blades.

[Jerome Hanby]

Companies go to great expense to develop a ISO program and when their Quiality System has been certified by an independant agency they usually have a big banner made and attach to the outside of their building. Most of us have seen these banners but may not have know what they ment.

I can only speak to ISO 9000, my former employer went through a massive program to become ISO 9000 certified. At the end of the day, it's just a bunch of guidelines and requirements like other similar "standards" and creative paper work comes into play. For instance, we didn't have one product that had a clear path through the ISO 9000 maze, but by squinting and documenting we had enough overlap between support, engineering, and manufacturing to fill in all the blanks. We were already concerned with putting out a quality product and providing quality support, the only benefit we got from ISO certification was access to more European markets.

[Mark Maleski]

"Engineers always want to say that quality is conformance to specifications..."

Not if they're Systems Engineers, they don't. Or shouldn't. Instead we use Measures of Performance/Quality which are based on operational use of the system/component.

Back to the topic: sounds like perhaps the salesman's word on the recall may not have been accurate - but I'm sticking with LN/LV anyway. Is the Richmond store still next to the Mongolian BBQ place?

Mark

[Mark Maleski]

Justin,use a little sense!! A DEAD BLOW sledge hammer made of rubber would do less damage to the plane!!

With a new Stanley plane? Better to use the sledehammer and be done with it.

[george wilson]

It's next door to an Everything's $1.00 store. Maybe that's where the planes got sent?

[Pat Germain]

I was at Woodcraft just yesterday looking at the Wood River planes. I don't know much about hand planes, but the Wood River examples looked very nice.

Pardon me for being cynical, but I'm wondering if there's really a recall, or some store manager is just trying to steer customers toward a product with a higher markup. You don't need a foil helment to consider this. Other retailers do it all the time.

[Editorial Mode] As for quality programs, yawn. A bunch of people get together and somehow get their standard to be accepted. Then they make money training people about the standard. They make money certifying companies who supposedly meet the standard. Then they make more money inspecting companies to make sure they're continuing to meet the standard. Companies build a Potempkin Village to appease the inspectors and it's, "Check, check, check. You're certified!".

Companies make more money buy charging extra because, why, they meet the standard. "We're level 5. We demand a higher price."

Meanwhile, every time employees attempt to follow the standard, management says, "We don't have time for that!" and "We can't afford that!". So, even if the standard was beneficial, it just goes out the window trying to meet the first deadline or the first budget constraint.

I'm surrounded by people with Six Sigma belts of all colors. It doesn't mean they can manage their way out of a paper bag.

Engineers can set standards and determine if they're being met. But only if management allows them to do so. Tragically, NASA learned this lesson the hard way. [/Editorial Mode]

[george wilson]

I know the owner of the Woodcraft store. No,he would not pull something like that. besides,they still had the Groz Indian made planes.