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Thread: hybrid table saw review

  1. #1
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    hybrid table saw review

    Here is a good article on hybrid table saw's by popular woodworking

    http://www.popularwoodworking.com/up...HybridSaws.pdf

  2. #2
    Thank you for the link, it had a bunch of good info.

  3. #3
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    Indeed, it was very informative. I was considering a hybrid for my next saw purchase. Since it appears I won't gain much in the way of power, it seems I should likely opt for a full-blown cabinet saw. I've already got the 220V outlet.

  4. #4
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    He did do a pretty nice job with that article! Lots of detail, lots of explanation of his likes and dislikes, he expressed his opinions of many of the design features, and he mentioned several negatives with each machine. I don't agree with everything he mentions, but it's refreshing and realistic to see the downsides noted as well as the good.

    A couple of points I'm surprised he didn't mention is whether the motor has a standard NEMA 56 frame or not. AFAIK, the GI does not...and the Grizzly and Jet may not, but I'm not sure about those. I can't recall if he mentioned warranty differences, or that the Griz is mail order either, but those are points I'd investigate if I was saw shopping.

    Thanks for posting that...
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  5. #5
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    I have a problem with the Steel City coming in up front and Craftsman getting knocked down. I thought I read somewhere that they are the same saw. Is this true?
    Last edited by Tom Henry; 12-19-2007 at 3:27 PM.

  6. #6
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    I have the General Hybrid saw. I like it, it's a good fit for me.
    The article is right about the throat plate. It has to be replaced. lee Craft makes a great one for 1/2 the amount of $$$ a General OEM ZCI cost. You need a ZCI with this saw. The OEM throat plate is ah,,,,, Junky.

    It would appear that the author made the same mistake I did when changing blades. The dust shroud does get in the way, unless you raise the blade completely. Then it's not in the way.

    I took the side of the dust shroud off. The shipped way, all of the material had to educt through a 1 1/2" port. Not a great design in my opinion.

    The fence is a little troublesome. It can shift without a little mod to the friction pad. The fence parallel adjustments are wimpy, and require checking often. In the saw's defense though, most of my work is with long, heavy, thick tropicals. It's pretty easy to apply a lof of leverage with a board 8'-12' long, and 2" thick.

    The power of the saw is where I don't fully agree with the article. I've put 2" thick Jatoba, Wenge, Bubinga, Padauk, Orange Osage,Cocobola, Macassar Ebony on long rips and that saw has not skipped a beat.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Henry View Post
    I have a problem with the Steel City coming in up front and Craftsman getting knocked down. I thought I read somewhere that they are the same saw. Is this true?
    They are both from associated companies and likely come from the same plant, are very similar, and even share many parts, but they're not "identical" per se. But much of what is said of one could be said of the other, with the exception of the accessories that he knocked that don't come with any other saw....he's entitled to his opinion of their value, or lack thereof in this case, but they don't detract from basics of the saw....I actually like the outfeed as opposed to nothing, and actually kept it, but flanked it by additional width.
    Last edited by scott spencer; 12-19-2007 at 5:15 PM.
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott spencer View Post
    They are both from associated companies and likely come from the same plant, are very similar, and even share many parts, but they're not "identical" per se. But much of what is said of one could be said of the other, with the exception of the accessories that he knocked that don't come with any other saw....he's entitled to his opinion of their value, or lack thereof in this case, but they don't detract from basics of the saw.
    OK...so lets knock it down like this...
    1. Same motor?
    2. Same motor mount?
    3. Same Top?
    4. Same quick release blade guard
    5. Craftsman come with a better fence!
    6. Accessories can be trashed from Craftsman but still included
    It smells fishy to me!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Henry View Post
    OK...so lets knock it down like this...
    1. Same motor?
    2. Same motor mount?
    3. Same Top?
    4. Same quick release blade guard
    5. Craftsman come with a better fence!
    6. Accessories can be trashed from Craftsman but still included
    It smells fishy to me!
    Wouldn't be the first review we don't agree with and won't be the last. I tried to glean the details and leave the subjective comments behind. Reviews are funny; like a recent band saw review where the Laguna won even though it was the only saw to stall during testing even though it had the most HP(???). I think the Laguna is a fine saw but the text in the article accompanying the review didn't seem to follow the test results (written and reviewed by the same guy BTW).
    Last edited by glenn bradley; 12-19-2007 at 4:11 PM.
    “Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it,”
    -Jonathan Swift

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Henry View Post
    OK...so lets knock it down like this...
    1. Same motor?
    2. Same motor mount?
    3. Same Top?
    4. Same quick release blade guard
    5. Craftsman come with a better fence!
    6. Accessories can be trashed from Craftsman but still included
    It smells fishy to me!
    1. Same Motor - Doubtful, usually clones differ in at least motors and switches. In this case, it seems like the C'man motor might be better based on the authors comments.
    2. Same Motor Mount - Maybe? Same trunnion ... maybe.
    3. Same Top - Dunno, maybe. Perhaps SC specified a different cutout for the throat plate. Sears is pretty famous for having odd throat plates. When their saws were made by Ridgid they had different throat plates and even had different miter gauge slots so they could gouge you for parts specific to them. I really wouldn't count on the fact that they don't differ in lots of parts.
    4. Same quick release blade guard - dunno
    5. Craftsman come with a better fence! - Maybe ... the bies is a good fence and I have one on my Unisaw. But, it's not perfect and it's not adjustable. Some of the clone fences are better IMO.
    6. Accessories - If they are trashable, why would more trash factor positively into the ratings?

    Can't say there's not some other factor at work or negative opinion, just saying I think it's unlikely that C'man and SC saws are the same. Neither company is known to leave clones alone. If the SC doesn't have the short arbor shaft mentioned in the C'man dislikes, that would be reason enough for me to want the SC over an otherwise identical C'man. The SC also has the easy setup wings (see my comments below for author setup time biases).
    I certainly don't agree with the criteria of authors in lots of reviews. For example there was an article about mobile bases a while ago in one of the mags where the author placed great emphasis on ease of assembly. That's important to him because he had to spend the time to assemble all of them. Not real important to me since I'm going to do it once and probably never change it. If one works better in the long run, it's much more important to me than 20 extra minutes to set it up.
    I think the mags should use their "web extras" sections to break down their findings on each model with more space than the mags give them. Sometimes I know the chosen model isn't the one for me and I'd like to know what separates a couple others. For example, some of the likes in the SC saw are common to the C'man saw but not mentioned there. No matter what they do though, it's just another data point in the decision process.

    Jay
    Jay St. Peter

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayStPeter View Post
    1. Same Motor - Doubtful, usually clones differ in at least motors and switches. In this case, it seems like the C'man motor might be better based on the authors comments.
    2. Same Motor Mount - Maybe? Same trunnion ... maybe.
    3. Same Top - Dunno, maybe. Perhaps SC specified a different cutout for the throat plate. Sears is pretty famous for having odd throat plates. When their saws were made by Ridgid they had different throat plates and even had different miter gauge slots so they could gouge you for parts specific to them. I really wouldn't count on the fact that they don't differ in lots of parts.
    4. Same quick release blade guard - dunno
    5. Craftsman come with a better fence! - Maybe ... the bies is a good fence and I have one on my Unisaw. But, it's not perfect and it's not adjustable. Some of the clone fences are better IMO.
    6. Accessories - If they are trashable, why would more trash factor positively into the ratings?

    Can't say there's not some other factor at work or negative opinion, just saying I think it's unlikely that C'man and SC saws are the same. Neither company is known to leave clones alone. If the SC doesn't have the short arbor shaft mentioned in the C'man dislikes, that would be reason enough for me to want the SC over an otherwise identical C'man. The SC also has the easy setup wings (see my comments below for author setup time biases).
    I certainly don't agree with the criteria of authors in lots of reviews. For example there was an article about mobile bases a while ago in one of the mags where the author placed great emphasis on ease of assembly. That's important to him because he had to spend the time to assemble all of them. Not real important to me since I'm going to do it once and probably never change it. If one works better in the long run, it's much more important to me than 20 extra minutes to set it up.
    I think the mags should use their "web extras" sections to break down their findings on each model with more space than the mags give them. Sometimes I know the chosen model isn't the one for me and I'd like to know what separates a couple others. For example, some of the likes in the SC saw are common to the C'man saw but not mentioned there. No matter what they do though, it's just another data point in the decision process.

    Jay
    - Not certain about the motors...thought I read somewhere where the motors have the same UL reg number.
    - Motor bracket is the same
    - The CMan throat insert is the same as a Delta Unisaw insert...it's the same for the SC. Miter slots are standard too
    - AFAIK, the 22124's arbor is the same length as most other hybrids and contractor saws...it's a myth that it's shorter....it's the same length as my GI contractor saw's arbor, the Ridgid arbor, and it's the same arbor that's in the SC. It may be shorter than some cabinet saw arbors though.

    FWIW, SC owns Orion who makes the CMan....the tech support line is the same for both. I've read that SC has tighter specs and that the trunnion brackets are beefier to accept the 3hp motor on the 35675. Some time ago I compared parts list...there were a lot of identical parts. Bottom line for me..."very similar" about sums it up. If they were even money, I'd go with the SC for the longer warranty and their dealer's support, but if I were buying new and paying anywhere near retail, I'd get a Griz 1023SLW or a used General 650, PM66, etc.

    A sale price of $594 with free delivery swayed me to the 22124 a little... I think I would have been pretty happy with any of these hybrids.
    Last edited by scott spencer; 12-19-2007 at 5:33 PM.
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  12. #12
    I have the delta saw. Other than runout (just under 0.002" at the arbor flange), I don't really have any issues with it.

    I haven't had much of an issue with its power, but I'm a novice, so ripping thick stock on it slowly is something that I do already. I would think that with any of these saws, including the grizzly, thinking that you're going to get board after board of 8/4 hardwood stock through it at a high rate without some serious problems is a bit of a pipe dream.

    It's a joy to rip that stuff on a 5 horsepower saw, but even then, you can bog the saw down with a combination if you get a good long stride and really jam it through.

    Of the things I do, using the table saw is a small part of the time, and while it's disappointing to see that my saw lags behind in power, it didn't bother me before the review, so it probably shouldn't bother me after.

    The next saw that I get will be a 5hp PM66 - I already use the saw and am just waiting for the owner to buy a martin sliding table saw (what's the highest T number saw? 74? Something nutty for a hobbyist for sure, but thank David Marks). My point with this is i think that it's a bit misleading to review all of the saws and say that a saw has gobs of power - it may lead a buyer away from getting a full cabinet saw instead, thinking that these 1.75 horsepower saws are going to shred away at 2" hard maple at a high rate of speed. What would be more useful is a larger comparison of all of the saws on the market with data - how long did it actually take to get 5 tries of boards from a standardized lot through the saws. Then people could really make decisions based on a 1.75-2 hp saw that cuts "fast" in one review, while another cabinet saw with 3 hp cuts "slow" in another review. Which really cuts faster in real life?

    I think I could be happy with any of the hybrids they discussed, and I think if I was expecting cabinet saw performance from them in a higher volume setting, I would be disappointed with all of them.

  13. #13
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    I agree some of the author's comments are subjective. I do think he provided enough data to help consumers make an informed decision. It's pretty hard for us to do such comparisons on our own. Where are you going to see all those examples in one place where you can actually cut some wood and try them out? I guess the closest would be the big woodworking show in Las Vegas.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott spencer View Post
    - A sale price of $594 with free delivery swayed me to the 22124 a little... I think I would have been pretty happy with any of these hybrids.
    Good point. If they are almost exactly the same, the article uses list price. The $150 difference would be enough to favor the SC. Real sale prices would be a significant factor in favor of the c'man if you're willing to wait for the good sales. With that price, I think it would've won best bargain too.
    Jay St. Peter

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