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Thread: Mortise marking suggestions.

  1. #1
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    Mortise marking suggestions.

    I had an mint old Stanley #77 that found a new home in a tool purge due to non-use. Iím getting ready to launch a few projects with a fair bit of M&T joinery and could use a dedicated mortise gauge. I have a Tite-Mark I use for day to day marking. Are the mortise accessories worth the investment? Iíd almost rather have something dedicated so I can keep it set up for the whole project and still use the Tite-Mark for other needs. What is a tool junky to do?
    Sharp solves all manner of problems.

  2. #2
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    Several optionsÖ titemark additions, the double Veritas, a cheap traditional pin mortise gauge, a second gauge to mark the second edge, resetting the tight mark to second edge, or just donít mark second edge at all.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post

    I’m getting ready to launch a few projects with a fair bit of M&T joinery and could use a dedicated mortise gauge. I have a Tite-Mark I use for day to day marking. Are the mortise accessories worth the investment? I’d almost rather have something dedicated so I can keep it set up for the whole project and still use the Tite-Mark for other needs. What is a tool junky to do?
    Tools for working wood has them starting at under $20 > https://toolsforworkingwood.com/stor...Mortise+Gauges

    Lee Valley has nicer models at higher prices > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...s?item=35N0201

    Besides having a dedicated tool, one thing that makes me skeptical about the "mortise accessories" is one has to be purchased for each size of chisel. Then there is a possibility it isn't an exact match to one's chisel.

    Another option would be to make your own gauge.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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    Thanks for the tips Jim. I’m torn between pin gauges and cutting gauges. I have a couple of single pin gauges and have honed the pins to cut instead of scratch. The cutting style seems to work better for me. I work with QSWO quite a bit and between the hardness and grain marking can be a challenge. I use blue tape a lot (thanks for the tip Mike Peckovich). I have LN mortise chisels and may check with them on the match between their chisels and the TM mortise cutters.
    Sharp solves all manner of problems.

  5. #5
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    I have LN mortise chisels and may check with them on the match between their chisels and the TM mortise cutters.
    I like the Tite-Mark so much I bought another that was listed on the SMC Classifieds. It is currently sitting in Customs. Strange since it was originally made in the U.S. Though it is being sent to me from Canada.

    When using gauges it is convenient to have multiples for different sizes.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post
    Thanks for the tips Jim. Iím torn between pin gauges and cutting gauges. I have a couple of single pin gauges and have honed the pins to cut instead of scratch. The cutting style seems to work better for me. I work with QSWO quite a bit and between the hardness and grain marking can be a challenge. I use blue tape a lot (thanks for the tip Mike Peckovich). I have LN mortise chisels and may check with them on the match between their chisels and the TM mortise cutters.
    I have a TM mortise cutter and a 1/4í LN mortise chisel. I you want, I can check to see how closely they match.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post
    Thanks for the tips Jim. I’m torn between pin gauges and cutting gauges. I have a couple of single pin gauges and have honed the pins to cut instead of scratch. The cutting style seems to work better for me. I work with QSWO quite a bit and between the hardness and grain marking can be a challenge. I use blue tape a lot (thanks for the tip Mike Peckovich). I have LN mortise chisels and may check with them on the match between their chisels and the TM mortise cutters.
    Rob, for M&T marking, my preference is a Japanese cutting gauge (the one in the middle below) or my own design (on the right), which is effectively the same style but with fixed cutters ...



    I do have a wheel gauge (as seen on the left), but the issue with wheel gauges is that they may be fantastic at scoring face grain, but do not deal well enough with end grain. In end grain the wheels cut lightly, and often the marks disappear as the end grain closes up.

    Cutting gauges work wonderfully in both face- and end grain.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  8. #8
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    I'll second Derek, I have used a crown pin gauge (not a fan), the LV on the left in Derek's photo, which is ok, and I have a Japanese gauge very similar to the photo in the middle I bought from Stu right before he closed shop, which is a delight. Short version, would also suggest a cutting gauge.
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Rob, for M&T marking, my preference is a Japanese cutting gauge (the one in the middle below) or my own design (on the right), which is effectively the same style but with fixed cutters ...



    I do have a wheel gauge (as seen on the left), but the issue with wheel gauges is that they may be fantastic at scoring face grain, but do not deal well enough with end grain. In end grain the wheels cut lightly, and often the marks disappear as the end grain closes up.

    Cutting gauges work wonderfully in both face- and end grain.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Thanks for chiming in Derek. I love a cutting style gauge and made one that’s very effective, but it’s a single blade style. The version depicted in the center of your photo is something I think would suit me well. Where does one find a tool of this type?
    Sharp solves all manner of problems.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post
    Thanks for chiming in Derek. I love a cutting style gauge and made one thatís very effective, but itís a single blade style. The version depicted in the center of your photo is something I think would suit me well. Where does one find a tool of this type?
    Rob, here is the development ...

    Japanese double gauges - mine is a Kinshiro - cut fantastically, but can be a bugger to set up for the offset. This is how you do it ...


    Mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.





    This is going to aid in setting up the mortice gauge. Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.





    Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gauge.





    Mark the mortice lines.


    My mortice cutting gauge is my design (2015), aimed at the best of all worlds: knives plus fixed positions, so that setting the offset is a simple matter.


    It is based on the Kinshiro profile, but has a Western arm. It is made from some scrap Fiddleback Jarrah and brass. The fence is 4 Ĺ" long x 2 Ĺ" high ...




    The novel feature here is that the blade is a fixed width, but is exchangeable for other fixed width blades ..


    The knives are made from 4mm thick HSS (they should not need resharpening for a while!). So far I have made double-sided knives for a 1/4", 3/16" and 3/8" mortice-and-tenons, and two straight knives (I made a second when I realised that the first would score 3/8" away from the fence). The idea for these knives came from dovetail planes. Hone the blades on the inside faces only.





    The knives sit in a brass "cassette". This is fitted permanently in the arm ...




    As seen in the first image, each knife may be dropped in or out and is held with a setscrew. As mentioned earlier, I have not seen a similar system on a marking gauge before.


    One of the advantages of using HSS is that you can heat it without fear of ruining the hardness.


    I used a Dremel to shape the centre semicircle, and then a thin, round stone on the drill press to round the inside into a curve.





    Once the external size is done, leave it alone. Sharpen only from the inside.


    The second design feature is a rounded lower section to the arm ..







    The reason for this is twofold:


    Firstly, this is a very strong design that locks the arm very securely. Just a little downforce and there is no sideways movement at all.


    Secondly, the rounded lower section offers better visibility that either a square section or a cutaway at the knife.




    In practice, this is very comfortable to use, and the knives cut clean lines both with and across the grain.







    The full article is here:
    https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMa...ingGauges.html

    Thinking out aloud: is this worth sending to FWW?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #11
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    I'd prefer sending it to Robin Lee! Well thought out!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Rob, here is the development ...

    Japanese double gauges - mine is a Kinshiro - cut fantastically, but can be a bugger to set up for the offset. This is how you do it ...


    Mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.





    This is going to aid in setting up the mortice gauge. Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.





    Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gauge.
    Nice method on on setting offset Derek. My problem is using the same mortise width on the tenon piece and the offset is different. For now I pinch the two blade rods together when I change the offset. It would be nice if it could the mortise width could be fixed in position.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Rob, here is the development ...

    Japanese double gauges - mine is a Kinshiro - cut fantastically, but can be a bugger to set up for the offset. This is how you do it ...


    Mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.





    This is going to aid in setting up the mortice gauge. Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.





    Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gauge.





    Mark the mortice lines.


    My mortice cutting gauge is my design (2015), aimed at the best of all worlds: knives plus fixed positions, so that setting the offset is a simple matter.


    It is based on the Kinshiro profile, but has a Western arm. It is made from some scrap Fiddleback Jarrah and brass. The fence is 4 Ĺ" long x 2 Ĺ" high ...




    The novel feature here is that the blade is a fixed width, but is exchangeable for other fixed width blades ..


    The knives are made from 4mm thick HSS (they should not need resharpening for a while!). So far I have made double-sided knives for a 1/4", 3/16" and 3/8" mortice-and-tenons, and two straight knives (I made a second when I realised that the first would score 3/8" away from the fence). The idea for these knives came from dovetail planes. Hone the blades on the inside faces only.





    The knives sit in a brass "cassette". This is fitted permanently in the arm ...




    As seen in the first image, each knife may be dropped in or out and is held with a setscrew. As mentioned earlier, I have not seen a similar system on a marking gauge before.


    One of the advantages of using HSS is that you can heat it without fear of ruining the hardness.


    I used a Dremel to shape the centre semicircle, and then a thin, round stone on the drill press to round the inside into a curve.





    Once the external size is done, leave it alone. Sharpen only from the inside.


    The second design feature is a rounded lower section to the arm ..







    The reason for this is twofold:


    Firstly, this is a very strong design that locks the arm very securely. Just a little downforce and there is no sideways movement at all.


    Secondly, the rounded lower section offers better visibility that either a square section or a cutaway at the knife.




    In practice, this is very comfortable to use, and the knives cut clean lines both with and across the grain.







    The full article is here:
    https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMa...ingGauges.html

    Thinking out aloud: is this worth sending to FWW?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Very clever. This looks like a nice "next project". I have the wood and access to HSS stock to make cutters. I made something similar (single cutter) and couple years ago and it works very well.

    Sharp solves all manner of problems.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post
    I had an mint old Stanley #77 that found a new home in a tool purge due to non-use. I’m getting ready to launch a few projects with a fair bit of M&T joinery and could use a dedicated mortise gauge. I have a Tite-Mark I use for day to day marking. Are the mortise accessories worth the investment? I’d almost rather have something dedicated so I can keep it set up for the whole project and still use the Tite-Mark for other needs. What is a tool junky to do?
    The traditional method is to use fixed pin mortise gauges, where the gauge matches the mortise chisel. This way the gauge is set up for width of the mortise and you only need to adjust the fence.

    In this method, you can fine tune the distance between pins by filing on the inside or outside edges of the pins. For instance, if you find that after sawing your tenons are a little fat for your mortises, you can narrow the distance between pins so that the tenon fits right off the saw. So faster, more accurate, more efficient.

    This gauge from Roubo is set up for multiple gauges; The gauges in the Seaton chest are set up for individual chisels.

    roubo moetise gauge.jpeg

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    The traditional method is to use fixed pin mortise gauges, where the gauge matches the mortise chisel. This way the gauge is set up for width of the mortise and you only need to adjust the fence.

    In this method, you can fine tune the distance between pins by filing on the inside or outside edges of the pins. For instance, if you find that after sawing your tenons are a little fat for your mortises, you can narrow the distance between pins so that the tenon fits right off the saw. So faster, more accurate, more efficient.

    This gauge from Roubo is set up for multiple gauges; The gauges in the Seaton chest are set up for individual chisels.

    roubo moetise gauge.jpeg
    Well that solves the issue Warren. Almost all my mortises are only three sizes ( 1/4inch, 3/8inch and 1/2inch ) so I should have 3 gauges fine tuned to my chisels and not move the pins. You are right Warren, those old guys knew how to get things done efficiently.

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