Birth of a shop

[Marty Walsh]

This has been a LONG time coming, but I’m finally ready to break ground on my new shop. I’ve been reading all the ‘new shop’, ‘shop remodel’, and ‘shop advice’ threads on here for quite some time. I’ve incorporated quite a few things I learned on here and wouldn’t have otherwise thought of. For that, I thank all the SMC’ers for your shared experiences and expertise!

Some of you might recall a few threads I’ve started or participated in regarding various aspects of wooden floors in a shop. My previous shops have had concrete floors and I’ve never liked them. Besides being hard on tools that inevitably get dropped, I find them very tough on the legs and back after long hours of standing.

With input from Frank and others on here, utilizing piers and beams along with an engineered system of I-joists and LVL’s, I’m going to finally get my wood floors. I know there are some of you out there that don’t believe in the engineered products, but after exhaustive research, conversations with the local building inspector and a few contractors, I believe the benefits I’ll be seeing will make them worth it.

I’m doing this ONCE and I have the room, so I’m going pretty big. It’s going to be 40’ wide, by 64’ long, with 10’ ceilings. (That just might keep the “go larger” comments to a minimum!)

Before I post a few diagrams, let me take a minute to thank Dave Richards, without whose assistance, I’d still be floundering in Sketchup. I modeled the entire shop in Sketchup. I’ve done quite a bit of remodeling, and a few large deck projects, but I’ve never tackled an entire structure from start to finish, nevermind ALONE! The decisions I’ve had to make and the choices I’ve had to deal with have been almost overwhelming. Sketchup allowed me to make changes, find potential problems, and fine-tune details, all without lifting a tool or wasting any material. Creating a true-to-scale model with all the details also allowed me to create an accurate material list. It was a lot of work, but I think it was time well spent. I guess I’ll find out when I get going!

Ok, here are a few different views of the shop. Since this is a Sketchup model, I can take snapshots of any detail I want or need to. And since it was done with layers, I can isolate every aspect of the model. It was also pretty cool to be able to virtually 'walk around' inside the model.

Front
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Back
39130

Pier layout:
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Attic Space
39132

Floor Plan
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Foundation:
This will be an open foundation pier and beam system. There will be four rows of seven piers (28). Each pier will consist of a 12” diameter 4’ long concrete filled Quik-Tube (Quikrete brand of Sona-Tubes), sitting on a 2’ x 2’ concrete cookie with two L-shaped pieces of 3/8” rebar embedded in each cookie, extending up into the concrete tubes. Since there’s no frost line here, and the flooring engineer specified a minimum clearance of 16” between dirt and the flooring, I’m planning to sink the piers roughly 2.5 feet into the ground. Since the I-joists will straddle the two center beams, the two center rows of piers will be sunk about a foot deeper. Topping each pier will be a block of pressure treated 2x10 attached using Simpson MAB23 straps. The double LVL’s in the floor system will be nailed to these 2x10’s. Once I have the piers installed, I plan to have the ground treated with termidor (or equivalent). I’ll then put down a 6 mil plastic vapor barrier, which I’ll cover with pea gravel.

Floor:
As I said, this is going to be an engineered floor system, using Trus-Joist “I-beams” and “LVLs”. The floor has been designed for 150lb/sq ft live load, and 20/lb/sq ft dead load. A standard residential floor is 40/live 20/dead, so this is about four times stronger. I’m not sure it would handle the load of a shop full of Dev’s caliper of equipment, but it’ll be plenty strong enough for my needs. It’ll be topped with 7/8” T&G Advantech sheathing, which will add to the strength and rigidity. I’ll be adding fiberglass insulation between each truss in the floor. I’m also planning to run hardware cloth across the underside of the trusses in hopes of keeping out a majority of the critters. (Thanks Frank for the idea!)

Walls:
I posted a thread about ceiling height a short while back, asking about 12’ high ceilings. That’s what I originally planned, but have since changed to a 10’ height. I don’t think the additional two feet would be a benefit, and it would be harder to light, and more space to cool and heat. All walls, including interior ones, will be 2 x 6 construction…more room for insulation, and wiring, and I just prefer the beefier walls. Instead of sheetrock, I plan to cover the walls and ceiling with 15/32” OSB. It’s lighter, easier to install, and in my mind more flexible for mounting cabinetry and other wall-hung doo-dads.

Windows:
I knew I wanted loads of natural lighting. I also knew I didn’t want the windows interfering with wall outlets, work surfaces, or sheet goods leaning against the wall, so I’ve placed them 56” high. There will be three on the front, three on the back, all of them being double wide, double hung units 80” wide by 48” high. I’ve also added a pair of large windows in the office space. Each will be 72” wide by 80” high. The view out of each will justify the cost and work…at least that’s the way I see it.

Porch:
I wasn’t originally going to put a porch on the shop, but the more played with the model, I wanted one to block some of the sun and afford me a comfortable place to go regardless of the weather when I just need to walk away from a project. Sketchup allowed me to create it virtually, allowing me to know EXACTLY what materials would be involved so I could determine what the cost would be. In the grand scheme of things, it’s only a few more studs, 9 more pieces of sheathing and 2.5 more bundles of shingles, so a porch will be included!

Attic:
I had originally planned on a 4:12 roof since I don’t like doing roofing, especially on a steeply peaked roof, and that's the minimum pitch I could get away with using standard architectural shingles. But, when I was working with the local truss company, we did a few ‘what-if’ models and he showed me the ‘room-in-attic’ truss system. The cost was almost the same for the attic room, and all I needed to do was change to a 5:12 pitch. It buys me 64’ of 10’ wide 6’ high storage space. He also beefed up the vertical webs in the trusses so I could hang the motor for a cyclone from them. I plan to have the air handler for my HVAC system, dust collection and my compressor up there, as well as all sorts of assorted storage…jigs, materials, etc. I plan to cover the floor of this attic space with 23/32” OSB, and the walls and ceilings with 15/32” OSB.

Electrical:
I haven’t even begun modeling the electrical for the shop. I plan to do that once I get the structure under cover. I’d rather be standing in the space visualizing where things will go, and where I’ll need power, than to speculate and waste time having to re-do things once I’m in the structure. I plan several banks of fluorescent strips over-head, each on a separate circuit. I also envision some track lighting over benches, and maybe machines, but I’ll decide that once I get to stand in the building.

Tool placement:
I’m handling this the same way as the electrical. Until I get the structure done, I don’t want to plan anything. Not to mention, I’ll be adding several larger tools since I’ll now have the space.

There you have it…at least the way it’s currently planned. I value the opinions of everyone here, so I’m open to changes (within limits and budget). If any of you folks see anything glaringly wrong, or omitted, please let me know.

I’m off now to get the price quotes from the three vendors I have competing. Once I choose the primary vendor, I’ll be ordering the Quik-tubes, which should take about a week to arrive. I’ll be outside either later today or tomorrow, doing some site-prep work, then putting in my batter strips and laying out the actual location of all the piers. That reminds me, I need more string…

Pictures WILL follow! I’ll try to update this thread as often as makes sense, which might be as frequent as every day, or as infrequent as once a week, depending on where I am in the process.

Frank has certainly raised the bar on ‘shop construction’ threads. I doubt I’ll live up to his high standard, but hopefully this will be beneficial to others. I know I’ll benefit from the wealth of knowledge I can tap into here…

Thanks for following…
- Marty -

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marty.............Good luck with the project and be sure to post photos along the way. I was making good progress on my new shop.....Then got sidelined by the turners here and work. I hope to get back and finish mine shortly.

Enjoy and keep us posted!

[tod evans]

way cool marty! sound like all your ducks are in a row. this last weekend i suggested to another fellow on the forum to look into an electrical "raceway" down the center of his shop, i ran mine and the trunk for the dust collector right down the center. by using a raceway you`ll afford yourself flexability in tool placement and additions as well as save money on conduit costs if you pull lotsa circuits.........just something else to look into..thanks for the thread..02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

way cool marty! sound like all your ducks are in a row. this last weekend i suggested to another fellow on the forum to look into an electrical "raceway" down the center of his shop, i ran mine and the trunk for the dust collector right down the center. by using a raceway you`ll afford yourself flexability in tool placement and additions as well as save money on conduit costs if you pull lotsa circuits.........just something else to look into..thanks for the thread..02 tod

Tod,

Thanks for reminding me. I read that comment of yours over the weekend. Are you referring to a product like this: http://cableorganizer.com/wire-duct/closed-slot.html ?

Or do I get creative and use 6" S&D pipe and poke holes where I need them? Or is there something else I should use?

I'll certainly have the room to run the raceway up in that attic space...

Did you run Romex in your raceway? Did you run extra in anticipation of new needs, or just leave room for expansion?

- Marty -

[Jim O'Dell]

Marty, great plan! Wish I could have started "fresh" on mine. I'm jealous of the 10' ceilings. :) I look forward to watching your updates. One of these days, if money turns around, I'll get back to my shop and finish it where I can actually use it. Jim.

[lou sansone]

love the shop.. great design and size

best wishes and keep up all posted as to the progress
lou

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marty.......... a lot of the floor ducts I've worked around were just a trough recessed into the floor. A normal cover is just set into to it. A wooden trough say.....8" deep and say 10" wide.....with a rabbeted edge 1 1/2 or even 3/4" deep so you could put a 1x 12 or 2x12 in the opening. By doing this you can place the openings any where you want. Typically in concrete some people put a 1/4" rabbet so a piece of 1/4" steel can be used. Again...it allows some flexibility in hole placement for entrances and exits to tools.

[tod evans]

Tod,

Thanks for reminding me. I read that comment of yours over the weekend. Are you referring to a product like this: http://cableorganizer.com/wire-duct/closed-slot.html ?

Or do I get creative and use 6" S&D pipe and poke holes where I need them? Or is there something else I should use?

I'll certainly have the room to run the raceway up in that attic space...

Did you run Romex in your raceway? Did you run extra in anticipation of new needs, or just leave room for expansion?

- Marty -

marty, what i did was have the local sheetmetal shop break 5` sections of 14ga galvanized metal into a "u" shape 6wx4h, then break a 6-1/8wx 3/4 "u"shaped lid. i welded the trough together in the attic&90`d down to the panel. leave the lid sections 5` for easy access. a standard stud-punch makes perfect holes for ridgid emt connectors. drill-n-tap for 1/4-20 lid bolts and you`re good to go.
no i didn`t use any romex in my shop at all, even the lights are wired with 10ga, all the lighting circuits are switched via contactors from one switch, compressors, same way only 4ga wire for their run. so when i come in in the morning i throw 2 switches and i`ve got lights-n-air, outside security lights another contactor and switch...some food for thought..02 tod

[Dave Richards]

Marty, that looks real good. I'm envious of all that space you'll have. Good work on the drawings, too.

[Jim Becker]

Marty, the modeling looks great and that's going to be a super shop!

[Steve Clardy]

Looks like a great start!!!!

[Frank Pellow]

Marty, that is going to be an amazing workshop! It will have more space than we have in the combination of our house and my shop.

I am very happy to have been of help, and thanks for the credit that you gave to me.

That's a nice job that you did with Sketchup. I wish that I had had it available to me when I designed my shop. It would have helped me a lot.

I am really looking forward to hearing about and seeing your progress.

[Dev Emch]

Great Start. But how about the floor? I am a bit nervous about the floor and most folks know why.;)

[Dev Emch]

Foundation:

Floor:
As I said, this is going to be an engineered floor system, using Trus-Joist “I-beams” and “LVLs”. The floor has been designed for 150lb/sq ft live load, and 20/lb/sq ft dead load. A standard residential floor is 40/live 20/dead, so this is about four times stronger. I’m not sure it would handle the load of a shop full of Dev’s caliper of equipment, but it’ll be plenty strong enough for my needs. It’ll be topped with 7/8” T&G Advantech sheathing, which will add to the strength and rigidity. I’ll be adding fiberglass insulation between each truss in the floor. I’m also planning to run hardware cloth across the underside of the trusses in hopes of keeping out a majority of the critters. (Thanks Frank for the idea!)


LOL.... Didnt see this part of the post.:p When someone asked my brother and I about the best way to build a building these days... we both blurted out in unison...

SYTROFOAM.........CONCRETE......and OAK!

It was funny to hear this come out the way it did....:D

[Chris Damm]

While that's a good start for a shop, you still need to make it bigger!

Murphy's Law #4 "The amount of junk you accumulate equals the square of the place you have to store it."

[Marty Walsh]

marty, what i did was have the local sheetmetal shop break 5` sections of 14ga galvanized metal into a "u" shape 6wx4h, then break a 6-1/8wx 3/4 "u"shaped lid. i welded the trough together in the attic&90`d down to the panel. leave the lid sections 5` for easy access. a standard stud-punch makes perfect holes for ridgid emt connectors. drill-n-tap for 1/4-20 lid bolts and you`re good to go.
no i didn`t use any romex in my shop at all, even the lights are wired with 10ga, all the lighting circuits are switched via contactors from one switch, compressors, same way only 4ga wire for their run. so when i come in in the morning i throw 2 switches and i`ve got lights-n-air, outside security lights another contactor and switch...some food for thought..02 tod

Tod,

Definetly food for thought. I think I'll be pestering you for more information when I get to the electrical for the shop. :rolleyes:

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

LOL.... Didnt see this part of the post.:p When someone asked my brother and I about the best way to build a building these days... we both blurted out in unison...

SYTROFOAM.........CONCRETE......and OAK!

It was funny to hear this come out the way it did....:D

Dev,

I was expecting some input from you, which is why I named you and your taste for heavy iron personally in my initial post! ;)

Given the specified load capacity which was designed for 3/4" sheathing, and the fact that I'm increasing that to 7/8" and will probably top it with another layer of 3/4" 'something', I think I'll be able to handle some pretty heavy iron. And since the shop is large enough, I'll have it spread out a bit. I think I'm going to be fine. Time will tell...

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

While that's a good start for a shop, you still need to make it bigger!

Murphy's Law #4 "The amount of junk you accumulate equals the square of the place you have to store it."

Wow, I didn't think I'd be getting the usual 'make it bigger' comments based on the size of the shop. But, there's always one in every crowd! :rolleyes:

Seriously Chris, I'm hoping between the main part of the shop, and the tremendous storage space I've designed into the attic, I won't outgrow the shop for quite some time!!!

One of my challenges when I start populating it with my tools and new acquisitions is to use the space efficiently. I'll be sure to solicit input from the seasoned experts on here...

- Marty -

[tod evans]

Tod,

Definetly food for thought. I think I'll be pestering you for more information when I get to the electrical for the shop. :rolleyes:

- Marty -

feel free but be forwarned i ain`t no `lectrition! and here in the sticks osha-n-inspectors are fed to the hounds...but what i`ve done has passed the approval of some friends who are card carrying union `lectritions as far as function and overkill....02 tod

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marty..........I'm not an electrician but I work on large scale electronics. When it comes to electrical as Tod is saying ....you never have to apologize for being over sized!

[Pete Harbin]

Congrats on the pending shop Marty!

Pete

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Marty, That looks like a great shop in the making and I thing you're wise to wait on the final organization until later on. Great plan!

[Marty Walsh]

Well, time for an update while I wait for the delivery of my 60 bags of concrete and 28 forms/tubes...

I'm at the dirty and boring, yet critical, stage of levelling the site and laying out the foundation/piers.

Had a buddy with a backhoe come over last night and grade the front a bit so the porch will be properly elevated in relation to the shop:

39462

Then I spent the morning and some of this afternoon setting my batter boards up, stringing the site, and marking the exact column locations:

39463

Now that I've seen the shop layed out on the ground, I'm starting to scare myself a little. It's one thing to layout a big shop in Sketchup, it's another altogether to actually see the size of this thing on the ground! Even with my wide angle lens, it's tricky to get a shot of all the columns.

39464

Once I had the columns marked, I dragged out the laser level again and reshot the grade. I then created an exact scale mock-up in Sketchup showing the precise grade of the site. This allowed me to determine exactly how deep each row of piers has to be dug. Because of the grade change, I've decided I'm going to raise the rear columns 2' with an additional section of tube. That's easier than having to regrade half the site. At least that's the way I see it:

39466

The backhoe is due back here this evening so I can get the holes dug tomorrow. Assuming the concrete and tubes get delivered today, I should have them all in and ready to be poured early next week. But it's getting late and I don't see a truck yet... :confused:

I had originally thought about doing the hoe-n-wheelbarrow thing, but a thread in the off-topic forum got me thinking about those 60 bags on their way. I took a quick run to HF in Savannah and picked up the electric concrete mixer while it was still on sale. Should save my back and arms...some...:rolleyes:

Thanks for looking...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Well, no concrete showed up yesterday or today. :confused:

But what did show up was the backhoe I was expecting, along with one of the best dang operators I've ever had the pleasure to watch in action. It sure helps to have friends with heavy equipment! ;)

39536

Using the grade diagram above that I created in Sketchup as a guide, I screwed together some scraps and made story boards for each of the four rows of holes. All I had to do was stand around while he dug the hole and when he thought it was about right, he'd have me stick the story pole in the ground to judge the depth. I'd give him the thumbs up and off he'd move to the next one.

39538

What would have taken me days with a shovel, took less than two hours. And I hardly broke a sweat:

39540

I now have 28 of these in the yard:

39539

We still have some cleanup to do in the bottom of the holes to make them level and ready for concrete. That's tomorrows task. And since the concrete and tubes didn't make it here, I can take my time and spread it over into Monday if I need to.

Fingers crossed that I hear a truck coming down the path first thing Tuesday...

- Marty -

[Steve Clardy]

Thats a good start!!

[Corey Hallagan]

Wow, that is going to be some shop! Looking forward to see the progress!

Corey

[Frank Pellow]

Getting the holes dug properly is a big step.

I hope that the concrete shows up soon.

[Jesse Cloud]

Wow Marty, what a great post. You are going to have one great shop. I think your decision to put a porch on it was inspired. Keep those pics coming!

[Marty Walsh]

Time for an update...

We spent the long HOT weekend cleaning up the holes, and adding blocking in those that required it. (I owe LOML *BIG* time for ruining her holiday weekend since she was out there helping me!!)

My bags of concrete and Quik-tubes showed up first thing this morning as expected. All told, 84 bags (80lb) of concrete mix, two full pallets, and 35 tubes were sitting in the yard when that truck left. I'm glad they sent a couple of young kids to deliver it. I didn't have to touch a bag! :rolleyes:

I then spent the better part of the morning/afternoon TRYING to assemble my new Harbor Freight cement mixer. I've updated the thread in the Off Topic forum here with the gruesome details. Suffice it to say, it was NOT one of the easiest things to assemble. I did suceed. Here's proof:

39761

That picture also shows 76 bags of concrete still on the pallets. I say 76 since the HF mixer was able to get almost 8 bags mixed before it DIED :eek:

Here's how far we got:

39762

Three miserable pads poured is all we got done! The motor of the mixer got so hot I could fry eggs on it. It decided to die in mid-mix on the third batch. So we had to finish mixing that batch by hand, as well as the next to finish off the third pad.

At least they're going to come out ok, at least from the looks of the first three:

39763

So, tomorrow's game plan is to head to the local rental place to get their industrial strength mixer. I'll get as many pads done as I can before the heat of the day sets in. Once it's too hot to work anymore, (or once this old body tells me it's had enough), I'll load the &^%$ HF mixer in my truck and bring it back for a refund.

And Frank, after mixing those last two batches 'your' way with a hoe and wheelbarrow, all I can say is you're a better man than I!!! :( That's NO FUN at all!!! And doing that for 76 more bags would probably put an end to me... :eek: Oh, and the fact that it's been in the low to mid 90's here for the last week hasn't help matters! :eek: :mad:

Hopefully more to follow tomorrow. Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Frank Pellow]

Sorry about the problems (but not surprised) with your HF mixer Marty.

What you have done so far looks good.

I think that 90 degrees F is about 32 degrees C and I spent the last two days working outside all day in temperatures that were warmer than that (35 degrees C) and with high humidity as well. Its draining isn’t it. But I was decking and gardening neither of which is as hard as mixing concrete. I doubt that I am a better man than you –the largest project I ever didwith hand mixing was about 30 wheelbarrows full –less than what you would need to do.

[Marty Walsh]

Sorry about the problems (but not surprised) with your HF mixer Marty.

What you have done so far looks good.

I think that 90 degrees F is about 32 degrees C and I spent the last two days working outside all day in temperatures that were warmer than that (35 degrees C) and with high humidity as well. Its draining isn’t it. But I was decking and gardening neither of which is as hard as mixing concrete. I doubt that I am a better man than you –the largest project I ever didwith hand mixing was about 30 wheelbarrows full –less than what you would need to do.

Thanks Frank. This isn't the most fun aspect of the build, but it's one of the most critical.

And yes, the heat sure is draining. I just did the conversion...it's been between 34.4 and 35.6 here in Celcius degrees. Doesn't seem quite so hot when I type it like that!

Anyway, hope to make better progress tomorrow...
- Marty -

[Steve Clardy]

Time spent, HF cost, dying on you, cost of bagged concrete, I learned a few years back, anything over 4-5 yards, call the mixer with the diesel engine and driver to come visit. Quicker, easier, pay em, cry a bit, continue on.

[Marty Walsh]

Time spent, HF cost, dying on you, cost of bagged concrete, I learned a few years back, anything over 4-5 yards, call the mixer with the diesel engine and driver to come visit. Quicker, easier, pay em, cry a bit, continue on.

Steve,

The diesel mixer WILL be here NEXT WEEK to pour the actual tubes. The pads should work out to about 75-80 bags (about 1.5 yards). The tubes themselves will be right about 4 yards in the big spinny thing...

There's too much 'finesse' work that I have to do to pour the pads. There's no way I could afford to have the diesel driver here all day while I get the work done a pad/tube at a time! It's probably less than half the cost to do the pads by hand as I'm doing.

- Marty -

[Steve Clardy]

Gotcha!!
Your bags are premixed? Concrete, sand, rock?

[Marty Walsh]

Gotcha!!
Your bags are premixed? Concrete, sand, rock?

Yup, Quik-rete...just add water and sweat, and pour. :(

[tod evans]

keep pluggin` marty. you`re gaining.

[Dave Richards]

Marty, the shop is coming along nicely. Are you finding that your struggles in getting the drawings done in SU are paying off now that you are actually building?

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, the shop is coming along nicely. Are you finding that your struggles in getting the drawings done in SU are paying off now that you are actually building?

Dave,

Not only are my efforts paying off, but watching what I drew come to life is doubly exciting! Seeing things come together EXACTLY as planned and drawn confirm that it was all time well spent! Thanks again for helping me through it...

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Special mid-day update...

Well, I was all ready to go get an industrial concrete mixer from the local rental place this morning. LOML and I were on the deck at sunup having coffee, when I thought I'd go give the HF mixer one last chance. Still in my bathrobe, I checked to make sure the extension was connected at the house, walked out to the mixer, plugged it in and threw the switch.

Much to my amazement, it fired right up and kept going!!! I guess it must have just not liked the heat last night, and having to work for a few hours straight right after assembly. Whatever it was, it was time to get to work before the mixer decided to call it quits again.

LOML took off a few hours this morning to give me a hand, and as you can see, it was time well spent:

39799

There's now 21 poured pads, with rebar and the tubes in position! We blasted through 18 of them this morning! And without Denise's help, I'd still be out there working on...oh I don't know...maybe number 12 or 15. It's amazing how much faster it goes when there are two of us blasting away!

I have to do a little more fabricating now so I can get the last row of 7 poured. Since the site slopes down as shown in the diagram above, I have to extend the tubes by about 24". I have 14 tubes left, so the plan is to cut 7 of them to the required extension length, then duct tape them to the full length section to create the required length.

(I'm worried that I'm already using duct tape in the building of my new shop, and I'm still only working on the foudation. I better have Denise hide the roll when I'm done extending the tubes so I'm not tempted to use it anywhere else!!!!! :eek: )

Oh, and the other fabricating I have to do is cut and bend rebar for those last seven tubes, and make some braces to hold them plumb and level when the spinny diesel concrete shows up.

Hopefully later this evening, I'll post a picture showing this pile completely gone:

39800

That's 58 empty concrete sacks against that pine tree. There are only 26 left on the pallet, and we won't be needing them all. I'll still need it to pour the posts for the porch, so it won't be going to waste.

It's back to work for me while Denise toils away in her office.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Don Baer]

Looking good and I'm glad the HF mixer just needed a rest.

[Dave Richards]

Marty, I'm glad I could help you out. You really did all the work though. I'm glad you're enjoying the process. It's a good thing you didn't have a roll of SketchUp duct tape. :D

[Marty Walsh]

A major milestone met this morning...

Denise and I have been busting tail for the last two days, in preparation for what had to happen this morning. We had to get all the pads poured, with the tubes and rebar in place, for a total of SEVENTY TWO 80lb bags of concrete. Boy were we glad that HF mixer decided to come back to life!!

Then we had to backfill all 28 holes, which was no easy task with a shovel, since most of what we were dealing with was HARD Georgia clay. Then we had to reinforce the back elevated row of tubes. Then we had to box blade the interior of the site so the big spinny concrete truck could get access.

With all of the above accomplished this is the end result:

39910

We now have 28 of these:

39911

And although Denise didn't want me to post this, here's a shot of her levelling out the tops after I inserted additional rebar and the Simpson MAB23 anchors:

39912


By the way, I AM THE LUCKIEST MAN IN THE WORLD to have Denise. Did I mention today is her Birthday? And this is how I treat her before she has to spend the day in her office!?!?!? :confused:


Next task is to let the columns cure for a day or so, then take the box blade and level out the surface so I can spread the plastic. Then I get to move that pile of 9 tons of gravel you can see in the picture above. Although Tod had a great idea to avoid the plastic and gravel, asthetics won over since the shop exterior has to match the house, which has lattice work around the bottom.

Monday will be another major day, since the engineered floor is due to be delivered. It arrived at the yard today, but I asked them to hold it for me since I didn't know for sure when the concrete truck would be here and gone.

I'm supposed to be borrowing a friends large tractor this weekend that has a set of forks on front so I can set the beams in place. They weigh in at over 350 pounds a piece, and doing that by hand for 24 beams might be just a little too much for me to handle after this weeks shovel and concrete work...:(

Thanks again for following. Hopefully you're enjoying this as much as we are...

- Marty -

- and B'day girl Denise! - :D

[Jim Becker]

Marty, borrow or rent a compact tractor with a loader to move that stone around!! Really... ;) ...I'm not kidding. The loader is the most used implement we have for our tractor and it's on the machine full time except when mowing.

Congrats on getting your concrete "done"...looks great!

[Steve Clardy]

Looking great!! Happy B-Day to your Wife!!

[tod evans]

you guys have been humpin`! happy b-day to your wife marty.. tod

[Larry Cooke]

Marty,

I've been lurking on this thread and wanted to say that I've enjoyed following it. One thing that really surprised me was the picture you took with the gravel. It really gives you a perspective of just how big your shop will be. I'm really green with envy on this shop! (And to think someone told you to go bigger!)

I know it's hard work but there is no better satisfaction than when it's finished and you step back and look at it for the first time. Keep at it, it's worth every ounce of blood and sweat you put into it.

Oh, and wish Denise a very happy birthday! (I think someone needs to take her out for a very nice dinner.)

Larry

[Marty Walsh]

Jim,

A tractor with a loader is on our wish list. Unfortunately, our tractor isn't 4WD and we've been advised against putting on a loader on it. So, for now, it'll be a shovel and wheelbarrow to move the gravel. After humping 72 bags of concrete, and backfilling those holes, I don't think 9 tons of gravel will really matter! :confused:

Steve and Tod,

Denise thanks you! And I thank Denise!

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

I've been lurking on this thread and wanted to say that I've enjoyed following it. One thing that really surprised me was the picture you took with the gravel. It really gives you a perspective of just how big your shop will be. I'm really green with envy on this shop! (And to think someone told you to go bigger!)

I know it's hard work but there is no better satisfaction than when it's finished and you step back and look at it for the first time. Keep at it, it's worth every ounce of blood and sweat you put into it.

Oh, and wish Denise a very happy birthday! (I think someone needs to take her out for a very nice dinner.)

Larry

Larry,

Glad you're enjoying our adventure.

As for the size, as I said early on in this thread, designing the shop in Sketchup was one thing. Heck, I could have designed it to be 400' x 640' and it wouldn't have mattered. But once I layed out the batter boards and saw just how big it's going to be, I realized I had bit off a HUGE task!

And yes, that's nine ton of gravel in the pile. To put it further in perspective, those tubes are 12" around and the row closest to the gravel is about 20" out of the ground.

You're also right about the satisfaction from doing it all ourselves. At least so far you are. Denise and I had a celebratory gatorade on the deck after the concrete truck left. It's so kewl to see this thing coming to life!!!

Denise thanks you too. And you can rest ASSURED that she will be taken to the finest restaurant she cares to venture into this evening. (After she gets the concrete from under nails, that is! :rolleyes: )

- Marty -

[Vaughn McMillan]

The progress is looking good on the gymnasium, Marty. A person really gets a feel for the size when they see you standing in that field of piers. After the gym is done, when are you and Denise gonna start building the shop? :p

You're a lucky guy to have a wife who can swing a hammer and screed concrete. Pass along a happy b-day to her from me, too.

- Vaughn

[John Bailey]

Marty,

Looks good. The only negative is all those pictures of you and not enough of Denise. Happy birthday Denise!!

John

[Marty Walsh]

The progress is looking good on the gymnasium, Marty. A person really gets a feel for the size when they see you standing in that field of piers. After the gym is done, when are you and Denise gonna start building the shop? :p

You're a lucky guy to have a wife who can swing a hammer and screed concrete. Pass along a happy b-day to her from me, too.

- Vaughn

Vaughn,

I like that...our Gymnasium! :D

It sures does look that way. Did I plan to make this TOO big?

NAHHH, it can NEVER BE TOO BIG! :D

And yes, as I said, I'm the LUCKIEST man to have her. Not only can she screed concrete, she even works in the shop with me. What more could a man ask for...and expect to get?!

She'll see the birthday wishes when she reads this after work.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

Looks good. The only negative is all those pictures of you and not enough of Denise. Happy birthday Denise!!

John

John,

All I can say is that she's camera shy. I'll make a point of taking more shots of her...but getting her to allow me to post them is another matter altogether!! :rolleyes:

Thanks on her behalf...
- Marty -

[Don Baer]

Marty,
Great progress and your wife is a real jewel to give you so much support.

Another Happy Birthday to her.

[Corey Hallagan]

Looking good Marty! I bet your chomping at the bit to get at the building itself!

Corey

[Marty Walsh]

Looking good Marty! I bet your chomping at the bit to get at the building itself!

Corey

Corey,

You have NO IDEA! I'm developing a serious allergic reaction to shovels!!!

But that should come to an end on Monday when the engineered products show up for the floor. It's on to 'wood-working' of sorts now! :D

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

Looks good. The only negative is all those pictures of you and not enough of Denise. Happy birthday Denise!!

John

John,

After reading your post, Denise relented today and allowed me to shoot and post a few shots of her...

Before and after pics of her leveling the site with our tractor and box blade, and then her taking a break admiring her handiwork:
400394004040041

Better...? :p

She shot a few of me, and I won't post them... :p

Back to shoveling gravel...
- Marty -

[John Bailey]

Some guys have all the luck!!:D

John

[John Scarpa]

Marty, I'm late coming to this thread. You are going to have one amazing shop when you are complete with it. I'm going to enjoy wathcing this one take shape!

[Jim Becker]

A tractor with a loader is on our wish list. Unfortunately, our tractor isn't 4WD and we've been advised against putting on a loader on it.

Yes, you need/want a 4wd for a loader. But just about every "rent-a-center" in the country has small tractor/loader combinations available for a reasonable fee if you want to save your backs!

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, I'm late coming to this thread. You are going to have one amazing shop when you are complete with it. I'm going to enjoy wathcing this one take shape!

John,

Thanks for following along with my adventure. I'm enjoying watching my dream come to life as well.

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Yes, you need/want a 4wd for a loader. But just about every "rent-a-center" in the country has small tractor/loader combinations available for a reasonable fee if you want to save your backs!

Jim,

Our local rent-a-center, for what it's worth, only has a small backhoe for rent. We were planning to rent it to excavate the holes before a buddy of mine supplied me with his large one, along with one of his crew to operate it. The problem with the small backhoe is the rate for rental. They want $175/day, with a minimum one day charge.

The good news is that we're already through that first load of gravel. The bad news is that I'll be ordering a few more tons first thing in the morning. Checking my reciept, I realized I had only gotten 7 ton, not 9 as stated above. I'll probably need at least two more ton.

And of course, you're right. We're both SORE!!! But I have to get the aditional gravel down quickly since my LVL's and I-Joists are scheduled to arrive at sun-up tomorrow.

Too bad I don't know anyone with a loader...

- Marty -

[Corey Hallagan]

Man is that going to be a big shop! Can't wait to see it go together.

Corey

[Marty Walsh]

I love it when a supplier delivers as promised! The material for the floor system showed up first thing this morning as expected.

Here's the LVL's and I-Joists waiting to be put in place:
40189 40190

There are twenty 32' long pieces, and six 14' long pieces of 1 3/4" LVL. These get doubled up around the perimeter, and tripled up in the center two rows. Then there are forty seven 40' long I-Joists. These sit on top of the two center rows of beams, and sit in hangers on the end two rows.

And here's the insulation for the floor as well as the hangers, hanger nails, adhesive and insulation hangers:
40191

Now if only I didn't have to go get another couple ton of gravel and spread it before I can get to work on this pile of materials... :mad:

What was I thinking letting Denise go on that business trip this morning?? :eek: :eek:

I'll update before I break the wrapper on the materials...which I hope to be either later today or first thing in the morning...
- Marty -

[Frank Pellow]

It's a good step when you finally get to use some wood when building a woodworking shop.

I am enjoying this thread Marty. For the next month or so, I will not be able to get to Saw Mill Creek very much but, the few times that I am able to, I will certainly be checking your progress. So, keep up the good work!

[Marty Walsh]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Frank. I can't imagine where I'll be in the project if you don't get to check in for a month. I'm really happy with the pace I've been keeping. Although, these old muscles would probably disagree.

One thing that's interesting, comparing this build to yours, is the shear volume difference in the steps. I reminded Denise about your '37 wheelbarrows' full of gravel while I was hauling ours. I asked if she could estimate how many I had toted. She laughed...saying that I had hauled 37 that one morning alone...and it took me almost three days to haul the total of just over 11 ton! I need maybe a ton or two more to finish it off, but that can wait for a while. I'm really not getting along too well with my shovel lately! :(

Well, I'll keep posting updates on my progress Frank...hope you enjoy seeing where I am in the process.

- Marty -

[tod evans]

keep `em comming marty! ya`ll are kicking butt...tod

[Marty Walsh]

I'm taking a "heat of the midday" break, so I thought I'd post an update on what I've been up to...

Yesterday started out with the delivery of the floor materials. I then went and got another four ton of gravel delivered, for a total of just over ELEVEN TON! I shovelled, wheelbarrowed, and spread that. I'm still short about a ton or so, but I've had it with shovels, so I'll finish it at a later date. I got the main field covered well, I just lack a little around the perimeter and on one end.

Then I FINALLY got to cut some wood!!! I made the pier caps, which are 12" long pieces of pressure treated 2x10. After cutting them to size, I walked them around and drilled holes for the Simpson brackets to pass through.

While fitting the caps, I noticed that the columns weren't flat. Denise was rushed badly while trying to screed them, and had left lumps and tips that had to be removed for the caps to sit level and flat. We should have been better prepared for the cement truck. I didn't even remember to bring out a trowel, so Denise had to make the best of it using a piece of 2x4. As a result, this morning I spent four hours with an angle grinder flatenning the pier tops.

40282

Once I got all 28 piers flat, I walked around bending the Simpson MAB23's down and nailing them. Yeah, a hammer instead of a shovel!!! :D

40283 40284

Although, after 448 nails, my forearms aren't so sure the hammer is that much better than the shovel. There are 16 nails per bracket and I couldn't shoot them with my nailgun...:(

So, here I am taking a break with the field of piers ready for the floor system:

40285

Hopefully, my next update will show the floor system going in...

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Busy and productive afternoon...

I started working to get the beams (LVLs) installed. Boy, is that gonna be a challenge, and a slow going one at that! Trus Joist puts some sort of wax-like coating on their LVLs to help protect them from the elements. (That's one of the reasons I chose them.) Well, trying to man-handle 200lb 32' long beams onto a set of forks, and then stand them up and assemble three of them isn't the easiest thing I've ever done!

I got the three stood up and lined up, put four quick clamps on the end I was working on and was about to drive a few nails to start the assembly. Just as I pressed the gun into the beam, over it went, and since they're 'waxed' they slid off the forks!!

I thought the beams were going to be closer to 300-350 lbs each, but when they toppled over and I was able to lift them and right them on the forks, I had to investigate. Trus Joist's web site shows them as 6.1 lb/lft, which works out to just under 200 lbs each. I didn't think I was lifting 300+!!!

I went and got over a dozen more quick-clamps and held the whole thing together so I could get it nailed without having it topple over again.

Assembly consisted of 3" nails every 16 inches, two inches from the edges, and from both sides of the assembly. Those LVLs are some dense material! My Paslode could only drive the 3" nails in about 3/4 of the way. I had to finish with a hammer.

Then the fun began! I had a heck of time positioning the assemebled beam onto the piers. I drove a forklift for a few years when I was in college...but that was about 30 years ago! And I don't recall ever having to maneuver anything 32' long, and position it to within 1/4". It probably took me the better part of an hour to get this sucker in place:

40306 40307

Initial results are pretty promising. I have to tweak the positioning tomorrow. The beam needs to move west about an inch. But so far it looks like I did a passable job with the piers:

40308

Here's one of the reasons it took me so long to get the assembly in place:

40309

There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room to maneuver!!

Well, I'm probably starting to bore some (or most) of you. So I'll try to refrain from posting until after I get the rest of the beams in place. That could take me a few days though...unless I find a better assembly system, and get a WHOLE lot better with that tractor!

Thanks for following...hope you're enjoying my adventure...
- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

Boring? Nope!

Bring it on and git 'r done.

[Frank Pellow]

Marty, you certainly are not boring me.

In a lot of ways, I look upon your shop project as my shop project done all over again but this time done BIG, and I find it fascinating.

Keep up the good work!

[Ben Grunow]

Marty- those floor joists should be available in one piece (you can get 48' LVLs and TJI's I believe, they come on an 18 wheeler though-I hired a framing contractor who wanted full lengths so we got 'em, what a side show unloading by hand-lull and his 40 men made it easy but I think 5 able bodied carpenters could manage a 40' joist,maybe I'm nuts). Installing these full length would reduce labor slightly and help stiffen the floor. Also nice when floor sheathing goes down because layout for cutting and nailing is consistent instead of off setting every 13'. Might also be nice for underfloor ductwork. You could also install solid bridging every 8' or so to add a little stiffness. Just thinking out loud.

BTW I finally read your description and looked at your SU plans and I now see that you don't need diagonal bracing on your piers since they are in fact concrete.

[Marty Walsh]

Marty- those floor joists should be available in one piece (you can get 48' LVLs and TJI's I believe, they come on an 18 wheeler though-I hired a framing contractor who wanted full lengths so we got 'em, what a side show unloading by hand-lull and his 40 men made it easy but I think 5 able bodied carpenters could manage a 40' joist,maybe I'm nuts). Installing these full length would reduce labor slightly and help stiffen the floor. Also nice when floor sheathing goes down because layout for cutting and nailing is consistent instead of off setting every 13'. Might also be nice for underfloor ductwork. You could also install solid bridging every 8' or so to add a little stiffness. Just thinking out loud.

BTW I finally read your description and looked at your SU plans and I now see that you don't need diagonal bracing on your piers since they are in fact concrete.

Ben,

The LVL's are 32' long, since the shop will be 64' long. I couldn't get 64' long LVLs, nor would I have wanted to since handling them alone on site would have been next to impossible!!! The 'assembly' I'm creating is tripling up the LVLs to make a 5 1/4" thick beam. Two of these assemblies run the length of the shop on the center two rows of columns. The outer two rows get doubled up LVL assemblies.

You're right that you can get 40' long I-Joists. Look at my pictures to see them. They'll span the width of the shop, so there won't be any offsets for the flooring install. And since they'll be sitting on top of, and supported by the triple beams in the center two rows, I think the floor will be plenty rigidi!!!

FIVE men to install the 40' joists??? :eek:

I'll be doing it ALONE! Watch for updates when I get to that stage in the next few days.

- Marty -

[Jim Becker]

Ok...I see a shiny new New Holland with forks on it lifting the beams. (good idea) And a nice blue Ford in the previous pics. Too bad the NH wasn't available when the stone was getting thrown about...should be a bucket lying around that fits that quick-attach! :)

Good progress, Mary! That's gonna be an outstanding shop!

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, you certainly are not boring me.

In a lot of ways, I look upon your shop project as my shop project done all over again but this time done BIG, and I find it fascinating.

Keep up the good work!

Frank,

You and your shop project have been a tremendous inspiration to me. I really appreciate all the work you put into your shop, and the way you so generously shared it for the world to see. I'm attempting to do the same here...in part to return the favor to those that come after me...

You should see a LOT of similarities between our shops, since I 'borrowed' quite a few of your good ideas. I just had to scale them up a little...:D

Glad you're enjoying the adventure...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Ok...I see a shiny new New Holland with forks on it lifting the beams. (good idea) And a nice blue Ford in the previous pics. Too bad the NH wasn't available when the stone was getting thrown about...should be a bucket lying around that fits that quick-attach! :)

Good progress, Mary! That's gonna be an outstanding shop!

Jim,

It sure is nice to have friends with kewl toys :p

Unfortunatley, he doesn't have a bucket for the NH. It's his hay baler...you should see the computer control panel for baling that's in it. I can take a pic if you wanna see.

- Marty -

[Don Baer]

Marty,
I am enjoying watching you build your dream shop. Maybe some day when I win the lottery I can bore some creeker with a like build.

don

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,
I am enjoying watching you build your dream shop. Maybe some day when I win the lottery I can bore some creeker with a like build.

don

Don,

I WISH I had hit the lottery. I worked long and hard in a suit and tie to be able to 'retire' and get this built. And there's NO WAY I could afford to have it built for me, which is why I'm doing it myself.

And on the 'retire' thing...Denise keeps telling everyone I'm retired. Well, let me tell you...I've NEVER worked so hard in my life as I have since I retired. :eek:

I tell everyone I've 'changed careers', from computer scientist to woodworker.

Glad you're enjoying....
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, are there any highschool kids who need a few days work around? it`d be money well spent to have some help with your beams. keep posting your progress pics! tod

[Rob Russell]

Marty,

It's fun to watch all the steps you're going through to build a shop that's as big as our house.

Too late now, but something you could have done with those joists is to cut one of them into 2 pieces and alternate/overlap the sections of the (2) 32' pieces. That way you wouldn't have a total break right in the middle of all building but would have a continuous beam. That'd be stiffer out in the middle of your floor than having the 2 sections just meet. It would mean a fussier assembly process.

Rob

[Marty Walsh]

marty, are there any highschool kids who need a few days work around? it`d be money well spent to have some help with your beams. keep posting your progress pics! tod

Tod,

I was talking to my neighbor about that last evening. I've put the word out and hope to have some bites. It sure would be easier to have a few extra hands...

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

It's fun to watch all the steps you're going through to build a shop that's as big as our house.

Too late now, but something you could have done with those joists is to cut one of them into 2 pieces and alternate/overlap the sections of the (2) 32' pieces. That way you wouldn't have a total break right in the middle of all building but would have a continuous beam. That'd be stiffer out in the middle of your floor than having the 2 sections just meet. It would mean a fussier assembly process.

Rob

Rob,

I asked the engineer about that, but he said it wouldn't be necessary since the piers are spaced the way they are. And you're right, it would sure make the assembly more complicated. I have my hands full with the process the way it is!!!

- Marty -

[tod evans]

strong backs and weak minds are the staple of any framing crew! take care of your back you`ve gotta lot of lumber to move and believe it or not this "on the ground" stuff is the easiest. tod

[Marty Walsh]

strong backs and weak minds are the staple of any framing crew! take care of your back you`ve gotta lot of lumber to move and believe it or not this "on the ground" stuff is the easiest. tod

Tod,

Don't tell me that!!!! :eek:

I do realize what's in store...and sort of ready for it. We'll see...

- Marty -

[Michael Gabbay]

Marty - It's really cool to see the shop built. If I were closer I'd love to help. Keep the pictures coming.

Mike

[Rob Russell]

Rob,

I asked the engineer about that, but he said it wouldn't be necessary since the piers are spaced the way they are. And you're right, it would sure make the assembly more complicated. I have my hands full with the process the way it is!!!

- Marty -

Marty,

It's not a matter of the pier spacing, it's the type of beam that you'd have. When you have a complex beam with multiple support points, the sections of a beam on either side of a section stiffen it.


......................Load
........................|......................... .
........................|......................... .
........................v......................... .
---------------------------------------Beam
I...............I...............I...............I Piers
A..............B..............C...............D

Pushing down on section BC will cause sections AB and CD to deflect up. Sections AB and CD will resist that deflection, stiffening section BC.

......Load
........|..........................
........|..........................
........v..........................
--------------------------Beam
I...............I...............I Piers
E..............F...............G

Pushing down on section EF will cause section FG to deflect up and, as above, FG will resist that which effectively stiffens section EF. What you don't have is anything on the other side of section EF to resist that upwards deflection.

What you'll notice is that - in the very middle of your shop where you're on the 2 end sections of the beams - the floor will deflect a bit more under loads. That doesn't mean that the floor isn't strong enough, that it's going to badly sag or anything like that. You might need lots of load and micrometers to measure it. I'm sure your floor will do everything you ask of it. I'm just the anal type who would have made the installation overly complicated just so I could make it as strong/stiff as possible.

Rob

[tod evans]

rob, if it proves to be a problem sandwiching the joint between two pieces of 1/4" plate 4-5 feet long and through bolted is easy to retrofit...02 tod

[Rob Russell]

rob, if it proves to be a problem sandwiching the joint between two pieces of 1/4" plate 4-5 feet long and through bolted is easy to retrofit...02 tod

Yup. Would accomplish the same thing. Probably overkill just as what I was talking about is probably overkill too.:rolleyes:

[Frank Pellow]

... I worked long and hard in a suit and tie to be able to 'retire' and get this built. And there's NO WAY I could afford to have it built for me, which is why I'm doing it myself.

And on the 'retire' thing...Denise keeps telling everyone I'm retired. Well, let me tell you...I've NEVER worked so hard in my life as I have since I retired. :eek:

I tell everyone I've 'changed careers', from computer scientist to woodworker.
...
- Marty -
Hey Marty, substitute the word 'Margaret' for 'Denise' and you have exactly my background and situation. :) And, I hope that you are as happy about your situation as I am about mine.

[Jim O'Dell]

Marty, I too am enjoying the picturs and updates. Wish I could retire and work on my shop. you're not boring anyone. we love the step by step process. Jim.

[Ted Jay]

Tod,

Don't tell me that!!!! :eek:

I do realize what's in store...and sort of ready for it. We'll see...

- Marty -

Have you talked with "todays" teenagers lately??:confused:
You'll learn that you should have paid an adult who knew at least something of what your wanting done, and you'll learn that your just an old man who doesn't know anything.... but they keep asking for your help and opinion????:D

Oh, and I'm not even retired>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

It's not a matter of the pier spacing, it's the type of beam that you'd have. When you have a complex beam with multiple support points, the sections of a beam on either side of a section stiffen it.
.
.
.
... I'm just the anal type who would have made the installation overly complicated just so I could make it as strong/stiff as possible.

Rob

Rob,

I'm the same type, which is why I had already asked the engineer if I needed to overlap them as you explain. I totally understand and agree with your logic. But he said it wasn't necessary. And boy am I glad he did. I'm having a heck of a time doing it the simple way!!!

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty - It's really cool to see the shop built. If I were closer I'd love to help. Keep the pictures coming.

Mike

Thanks Mike. If we hadn't moved to Georgia, you could have come over and helped. I worked in Herndon for over 10 years before moving south. I lived out in Warrenton, since I couldn't take the crowds and traffic in Herndon! :rolleyes:

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

rob, if it proves to be a problem sandwiching the joint between two pieces of 1/4" plate 4-5 feet long and through bolted is easy to retrofit...02 tod

Tod,

Exactly! Although I seriously doubt I'll have any problems. I'll keep this solution in my back pocket...just in case... ;)

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Hey Marty, substitute the word 'Margaret' for 'Denise' and you have exactly my background and situation. :) And, I hope that you are as happy about your situation as I am about mine.

Well Frank,

When I first quit the software world, I was truly enjoying things. Denise bought me a small jon boat and I'd go fishing every day while we waited to sell my house.

But as soon as we sold the house and moved, things took a turn. It was a SHARP turn, as evidenced by what you're watching.

I long for those lazy days of fishing every day, especially since my boat sits next to the house under a cover. But I'm really liking the process I'm involved in. It's TOUGH work, but I'm sure the fruits will be well worth the labor!

Breaks over, back to the LVLs for me...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Have you talked with "todays" teenagers lately??:confused:
You'll learn that you should have paid an adult who knew at least something of what your wanting done, and you'll learn that your just an old man who doesn't know anything.... but they keep asking for your help and opinion????:D

Oh, and I'm not even retired>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ted,

The youngun's around here are still the old fashioned, polite, hard working type. (I'm still not used to being called 'sir' by anyone under 40!)

But I'm not getting any takers on the offer of a summer job, so I guess I'll just keep plugging away alone. I guess it's just too hot for them, and they have an idea how hard the work is.

At least this way, I have no one to blame for screw ups but myself! :rolleyes:

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Ok...I see a shiny new New Holland with forks on it lifting the beams. (good idea) And a nice blue Ford in the previous pics. Too bad the NH wasn't available when the stone was getting thrown about...should be a bucket lying around that fits that quick-attach! :)

Good progress, Mary! That's gonna be an outstanding shop!

Hey Jim,

I was just going back reviewing my posts when I noticed something about your post here.

Listen, I may have hair past my butt...but I'm no MARY!!! :eek: :eek:

And now I have to explain to Denise that there wasn't any MARY here while she was away for the week. Thanks Jim! :mad:








I just couldn't resist..... :D
- MarTy

[Jim Becker]

Ooops! Fat fingered it! (Sorry......) And my hair is only past my shoulders. I should know better and proofread!

[Marty Walsh]

Trouble in Paradise...

Well, I wasn't going to post until I had the remainder of the triple and double beams in place, but...it's time for me to ask for assistance from all the expertise of the creek. Please read on...

Here's where I am. I got the two rows of triple beams assembled and in place. I was checking as I was going and I found that they are DEAD ON LEVEL, which is quite a pleasant surprise.

Before I started on the two outside rows of double beams, I put an I-Joist in place to see if there were any adjustments needed. Again, a pleasant surprise to see that it was also level:

40388 40389

Here's where things got ugly. Since I need to post four more pictures, I'm going to continue this is another post...stayed tuned...
.
.
.

[Marty Walsh]

Trouble continued...

Ok, so here's the problem. The rows are level, and end to end they're level. But, I screwed up on the height of two complete rows. (At least I was consistant!)

(By the way, I'm only using the I-Joist as a reference. There's going to be a double LVL beam running the length on both sides, with the I-Joist in hangers along the beam. Just wanted to make that clear before someone comments...)

Here are the four supports of the I-Joist you see in place in the previous picture:

Pier farthest to my right:
40393

It sits nicely flat on the pier pad. No problem, right? Keep reading...

Pier second from the right:
40394

As you can see, it sits 1/2" too high. That's a piece of 1x material I'm holding next to it for reference. Keep reading, it gets worse...

Pier three from the right:
40395

Hmm, it's sitting very nicely flat on the pad. Hmmm...keep reading...

Pier farthest to my left:
40396

This one I don't understand. It's almost a full 2x (1 1/2") off!!! :eek: I put a piece of scrap 2x under it, but it ever so slightly throws the joist out of level, (too high).

I remember reading in Franks post where he had the piers contracted out, and yet had to notch his beams to fit the piers since his piers were also out of whack slightly. His weren't as out as mine, but then again, I did this to myself. I don't have a contractor to blame.

So, here's my thought/question. Would it be alright to "shim" the two rows that are short? The left most column can be done if I were to drag my planer out and take maybe an 1/8" off some 2x material. I'm not all that worried about that one, (should I be?). But that one second from the right is only off 1/2". I'm worried if I plane 1x material down, the shim won't have much meat and might not serve its purpose.

Am I totally off base thinking I can shim these beasts? The thought of having to notch them all makes me reach over and take a heavy gulp of the cocktail I just made myself...:(

What other creative solutions would anyone care to share?

See, and you thought this was going to be a one way dialogue with me showing you what I've been doing. Time to participate fellow creekers...

- Marty -

[Jim Becker]

I'd say you done good pouring all those piers as close as you have them....no way could I have gotten them that close! I "would think" that shimming is normal and as long as you can securely anchor everything to the piers...but I'm guessing about this. Oh, and you really cannot notch the I-beams and doing the same to the LVLs would be a pain in the butt! If you can shim...shim.

[Steve Clardy]

Looks likeno choice but to shim. Use treated material.
Bummer

[Marty Walsh]

I'd say you done good pouring all those piers as close as you have them....no way could I have gotten them that close! I "would think" that shimming is normal and as long as you can securely anchor everything to the piers...but I'm guessing about this.

Jim,

Thanks...I'm not all that upset with myself, given the sheer size of what I'm doing. I've never tried anything CLOSE to this big before. It's one thing to chuck a few posts in the ground for a deck or an addition. But having to get the height and left and right positioning dead on was a challenge for sure. A challenge I "almost" got correct.

I figured shimming was normal/acceptable too. And of course I'd use pressure treated stuff just like the pads.

I know I can't touch the I-Joists. I thought about notching the beams, but what a nightmare that would be!!!

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Looks likeno choice but to shim. Use treated material.
Bummer

Steve,

The alternative is to notch the beams that are sitting correctly so they sit lower. But, that's a WHOLE LOT more work, and it would mean having to move those monsters again! :eek:

- Marty -

[Steve Clardy]

Steve,

The alternative is to notch the beams that are sitting correctly so they sit lower. But, that's a WHOLE LOT more work, and it would mean having to move those monsters again! :eek:

- Marty -

No. I wouldn't notch the others. You have just a few to shim.

Things happen. I know its disheartening when those things happen, but this isn't a perfect world.

[Marty Walsh]

No. I wouldn't notch the others. You have just a few to shim.

Things happen. I know its disheartening when those things happen, but this isn't a perfect world.

Well, a few is a relative term. I'd have to shim two entire rows of piers. Seven would get the planed 2x material, the other seven the planed 1x material.

I EXPECT things to happen. I'm not a contractor and have never attempted anything like this. I'm actually quite pleased with the way things are going. As I said above, I put the I-Joist in place to "see what adjustments might be necessary". I expected issues...and I found them...

Oh well...I guess I try to get my planer out of storage for five minutes of work! :mad:

I really can't think of any alternative. But then again, that's why I'm throwing the question to the creek...

- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

Not too bad for a first time, Marty. Shimming with flat thin pressure treated stock is perfectly acceptable unless you're going to be building a point loaded structure (eg timber frame) above this floor framing.

Retire your four foot level and break out a builder's level (http://www.contractor-books.com/CB/AutoLevel/PAL_Series.htm) and shoot all 28 spots. Add shims or plane that 2x10 down a snoodge as needed. Then set the balance of the framing on top.

[Marty Walsh]

Not too bad for a first time, Marty. Shimming with flat thin pressure treated stock is perfectly acceptable unless you're going to be building a point loaded structure (eg timber frame) above this floor framing.

Retire your four foot level and break out a builder's level (http://www.contractor-books.com/CB/AutoLevel/PAL_Series.htm) and shoot all 28 spots. Add shims or plane that 2x10 down a snoodge as needed. Then set the balance of the framing on top.

Andy,

That's actually a 6' level. But I did all the layout with my Stabila laser level. I was showing the 6' level since it was easier than dragging out the Stabila. (which I'll do when I start shmming...assuming that's what I'm going to do.)

[edit] actually, I just went outside to put my tools up and realized that's a 78" level, not a 6'. But I got your point!

I'd have to add shims, since the 2x10 pads on the piers have been NAILED in place and removing them would be a nightmare and probably damage the Simpson brackets from multiple bending/straightening.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, don`t fret! this is a normal occurance, s.o.p. is to use steel shims for load bearing shims..BUT.....the new pressure treated acq lumber will eat steel, so the aproach i`d take is to shim up your piers by placing 30# felt or scrap vinyl siding on top of the acq then add the steel. before you set any "i" joists but after shimming run around to each pier with a water level, don`t rely on lasers or stick levels for this! if you don`t own one they`re really easy to make and are what i use to check lasers and builders levels for accuracy. finish your cocktail and have another you`re gaining ground not loosing any! .02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, don`t fret! this is a normal occurance, s.o.p. is to use steel shims for load bearing shims..BUT.....the new pressure treated acq lumber will eat steel, so the aproach i`d take is to shim up your piers by placing 30# felt or scrap vinyl siding on top of the acq then add the steel. before you set any "i" joists but after shimming run around to each pier with a water level, don`t rely on lasers or stick levels for this! if you don`t own one they`re really easy to make and are what i use to check lasers and builders levels for accuracy. finish your cocktail and have another you`re gaining ground not loosing any! .02 tod

Tod,

I was hoping you'd chime in. I really respect your opinion.

But somehow I knew you'd mention steel. I even went looking and found that I have some big galvanized straps that might work. But here's the problem.

As you mention, I'd have to shim on top of the pad, but under the beam. The beam gets nailed into the pad. If I were to place a hunk of steel under the beam, I'd hit it with any nail I try to drive.

That's why I thought of using more pressure treated stock. Would that not work?

And I thought about using a water level from the get go, but I've had problems with them before on decks...hence the laser. But I guess the laser isn't fool proof...at least not for THIS fool! :confused:

- Marty -

[Vaughn McMillan]

Marty, several people beat me to the punch, but I'd think shimming would be almost expected in this type of construction, and nothing to really worry about. I've only seen steel shims used in similar situations, but that was on concrete structures like bridge decks. Tod brings up good points and suggestions for using steel shims with asphalt felt or vinyl scraps to keep it off the PT wood. [Edit: Never mind, I just saw your post about nailing through the steel. I'd think PT shims would also work, but I defer to the experts.]

You're making great progress, especially for an old hippie! :D

- Vaughn

[tod evans]

marty, the pressure treated will work but most of that stuff is so wet that i`d expect up to a 1/4" variance just between the piers that have 1-1/2" on them.here`s yet another option; place your "i"joists high leaving a gap underneath them, use hot dipped lags to fasten them to the blocking on the piers then point around them using semi-metalic grout. grout is what the railroad uses to shim bridge steel so i think it would be fine for a woodshop, plus it doesn`t shrink or crack......again i`m just thinking out loud..02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, several people beat me to the punch, but I'd think shimming would be almost expected in this type of construction, and nothing to really worry about. I've only seen steel shims used in similar situations, but that was on concrete structures like bridge decks. Tod brings up good points and suggestions for using steel shims with asphalt felt or vinyl scraps to keep it off the PT wood. [Edit: Never mind, I just saw your post about nailing through the steel. I'd think PT shims would also work, but I defer to the experts.]

You're making great progress, especially for an old hippie! :D

- Vaughn

Vaughn,

I'm more of a biker than a hippie anymore. I still ride my Harley, but I quit doing those mind altering things eons ago!!

And who you calling OLD? :mad:

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, the pressure treated will work but most of that stuff is so wet that i`d expect up to a 1/4" variance just between the piers that have 1-1/2" on them.here`s yet another option; place your "i"joists high leaving a gap underneath them, use hot dipped lags to fasten them to the blocking on the piers then point around them using semi-metalic grout. grout is what the railroad uses to shim bridge steel so i think it would be fine for a woodshop, plus it doesn`t shrink or crack......again i`m just thinking out loud..02 tod

Tod,

I was in Sketchup while you were making this post.

I think you got what I had in mind, but just in case...

40398


I agree that the pressure treated stuff is wet. And it's even more so here, since it's made in the next town over. I'm really upset I didn't realize just how wet when I built my deck recently. I started with carefully planned 1/8" gaps, and now have up to and over 1/4" gaps.

I'm not at all sure what you're talking about with the lags though. Especially the part about leaving the I-Joists high. The I-Joists sit in hangers that are attached to the beams. The beams are what I'm trying to set level.

Help me understand what I'm missing...?

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, the space where you drew a shim, leave it open, fasten the i joists as planned (folding the simpson ties up) then point underneath with the non-shrink grout.
i had the picture in my mind of you nailing through the i joist into the pad? like a toe nail, if this is or was the plan then substitute hot dipped lags for the nails.
if the simpson ties actually fold up and nail sideways into the web of the i joist then that`s better than either toe nail scenerio..
i gotta run to the house- hungry kids and all. i`ll check back in the morning..tod

[edit] sorry marty! i`m in a hurry- substitute the term i joist in what i`ve written with beam and it should make sence. tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, the space where you drew a shim, leave it open, fasten the i joists as planned (folding the simpson ties up) then point underneath with the non-shrink grout.
i had the picture in my mind of you nailing through the i joist into the pad? like a toe nail, if this is or was the plan then substitute hot dipped lags for the nails.
if the simpson ties actually fold up and nail sideways into the web of the i joist then that`s better than either toe nail scenerio..
i gotta run to the house- hungry kids and all. i`ll check back in the morning..tod

[edit] sorry marty! i`m in a hurry- substitute the term i joist in what i`ve written with beam and it should make sence. tod

Tod,

Sorry you have to run, but I certainly understand.

I'll keep trying to noodle through your idea, since I don't understand. And i do realize you're talking about the LVL beam, not I-Joist. Oh, and yes, they're supposed to get toe-nailed into the 2x10 pad.

(edit) by the way, the simpson brackets are those straps you see in a previous post. They got inserted through the 2x10, folded out and nailed. They're where they belong and are there to stay. They're 15 inches into the concrete pier!

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Vaughn McMillan]

Vaughn,

I'm more of a biker than a hippie anymore. I still ride my Harley, but I quit doing those mind altering things eons ago!!

And who you calling OLD? :mad:

- Marty -
Sorry for mis-typing...you'd think I'd know the difference, considering the fact that I live in Biker Central. Tujunga has no gang-banger problems, because the bikers ran them all off. A punk will only tag a biker's wall once. ;) I just kind of lump all long-haired guys over 40 into the "hippie" category -- myself included. (My dad has referred to me as "the hippie" since I was about 17 or 18 years old.)

And I only called you "old" out of jealousy...since you're retired and building your dream shop, and I'm not. :D Reminds me of a thread we had in the OT forums some time back about what CDs everyone had in their players in the shop. After seeing the various bands folks listed, I was thinking, man, these old guys listen to some good music. Then I realized the reason I thought it was good music is because I'm one of those old guys. :p

- Vaughn

[Marty Walsh]

Sorry for mis-typing...you'd think I'd know the difference, considering the fact that I live in Biker Central. Tujunga has no gang-banger problems, because the bikers ran them all off. A punk will only tag a biker's wall once. ;) I just kind of lump all long-haired guys over 40 into the "hippie" category -- myself included. (My dad has referred to me as "the hippie" since I was about 17 or 18 years old.)

And I only called you "old" out of jealousy...since you're retired and building your dream shop, and I'm not. :D Reminds me of a thread we had in the OT forums some time back about what CDs everyone had in their players in the shop. After seeing the various bands folks listed, I was thinking, man, these old guys listen to some good music. Then I realized the reason I thought it was good music is because I'm one of those old guys. :p

- Vaughn

Vaughn,

Ok, you're forgiven. I could post a few pics of me on here that would clear things up for sure...but I'm afraid people would stop talking to me!

As for the 'old' thing...well, no comment. Aside from the gray beard, I sure don't think I look or act my age. And I REFUSE to grow up! :p

- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

Marty - seems like you now have it licked except for the sopping wet PT issue. What about going down to the lumber yard and asking for a piece of really old twisted POS PT that even they'd refuse to sell. That'll be dry and you should be able to chop it up into useable machinable sizes.

[Marty Walsh]

Marty - seems like you now have it licked except for the sopping wet PT issue. What about going down to the lumber yard and asking for a piece of really old twisted POS PT that even they'd refuse to sell. That'll be dry and you should be able to chop it up into useable machinable sizes.

You know Andy, I was thinking about doing EXACTLY that! The local place has a huge pile of twisted up crap they can't sell. But since I'm going to be chopping it up into 12" pieces, I don't care.

Although, I'm not sure it's gonna matter much, given that the newer stuff is still there on the piers. But then again, even if I do get shrinkage, 1/4" over 64' might not be too bad!

- Marty -

[Frank Pellow]

Trouble continued...

...
I remember reading in Franks post where he had the piers contracted out, and yet had to notch his beams to fit the piers since his piers were also out of whack slightly. His weren't as out as mine, but then again, I did this to myself. I don't have a contractor to blame.

So, here's my thought/question. Would it be alright to "shim" the two rows that are short? The left most column can be done if I were to drag my planer out and take maybe an 1/8" off some 2x material. I'm not all that worried about that one, (should I be?). But that one second from the right is only off 1/2". I'm worried if I plane 1x material down, the shim won't have much meat and might not serve its purpose.
...
- Marty -
I would shim them. And for the narrower shims, I would use "standard" cedar shims that can be purchased at any lumber place (at least they can be bought at any lumber place around here).

I had to use shims (cedar) on top of 6 of posts that support my cabin at Pellow's Camp when I built it about 30 years ago. The shims are still in place and still sound after all these years.

[tod evans]

marty, after giving this some thought overnight i think baltic birch may be the ticket for your shims. it comes 1/8- 3/4 at most supply houses, is really stable, nails well and my tests have shown it to be very water resistant. for fasteners i`d still recomend hot dipped lags, especially for the beams you need to shim, not only can you get them in long enough lengths but i trust the hot dip process to resist the acq corrosion better than 16`s or even 20penny pole barn nails.

sorry for derailing your thoughts last night with the grout suggestion, steel shims got me on the structural weight bearing track and that`s where i headed. it`d be overkill and expensive plus i don`t know how well grout would perform between pressure treated and an lvl. .02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, after giving this some thought overnight i think baltic birch may be the ticket for your shims. it comes 1/8- 3/4 at most supply houses, is really stable, nails well and my tests have shown it to be very water resistant. for fasteners i`d still recomend hot dipped lags, especially for the beams you need to shim, not only can you get them in long enough lengths but i trust the hot dip process to resist the acq corrosion better than 16`s or even 20penny pole barn nails.

sorry for derailing your thoughts last night with the grout suggestion, steel shims got me on the structural weight bearing track and that`s where i headed. it`d be overkill and expensive plus i don`t know how well grout would perform between pressure treated and an lvl. .02 tod

'Morning Tod,

Baltic Birch, huh? I never thought of that since I never thought of it as being weather/water resistant. And better yet, I do believe if I go digging through my trailer where I have my shop stored, I have some in stock. I've never tried to plane it though, so that might be an obstacle. What do you think?

While we're talking about the shims, Franks idea of using cedar shims has me thinking. Instead of using ACQ, what do you think about using some cedar stock? I can get it nice and dry, and I'm sure I can get some in 1x and 2x around here. (That's assuming the baltic birch won't work cause it won't plane...)

On the issue of lags, I'm shooting 3" hot dipped ring shanks in my gun. Do you think that's not enough?

Glad you nixed the grout idea, since I still can't get my arms around the idea.

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, mornin`, i`m not a fan of cedar in weight bearing applications, even for a shop, but that`s just me. the test i put baltic through was i boiled a 1 1/2" square of 3/4 in the nuke every morning for a month leaving it soak between boilings and it didn`t delaminate. pretty tough stuff eh? looking at the shims you showed pictures of it looks as though 2 layers of 3/4 would be perfect for the fatter one, being as baltic is measured in sillymeters 2 layers = 1 7/16 on the shy side and 2 layers of 1/2 = 15/16. as for the 3" nails? your call........if you come up 1" on the beam and shoot at a 45deg angle you`re not hitting the blocking that`s tied down on the ones you`ve got to shim. .02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, mornin`, i`m not a fan of cedar in weight bearing applications, even for a shop, but that`s just me. the test i put baltic through was i boiled a 1 1/2" square of 3/4 in the nuke every morning for a month leaving it soak between boilings and it didn`t delaminate. pretty tough stuff eh? looking at the shims you showed pictures of it looks as though 2 layers of 3/4 would be perfect for the fatter one, being as baltic is measured in sillymeters 2 layers = 1 7/16 on the shy side and 2 layers of 1/2 = 15/16. as for the 3" nails? your call........if you come up 1" on the beam and shoot at a 45deg angle you`re not hitting the blocking that`s tied down on the ones you`ve got to shim. .02 tod

Tod,

I see your point about the cedar. If I was just using plain shims, (the borg packaged kind), it might be different. But I remember how light (and crushable) cedar stock is. Ok, cedar is out.

And wow to your test of baltic birch! Unfortunately, I just went out to my trailer, and I don't have any 3/4, so I have to go hunt some down today. The 1/2 would be perfect for the smaller gap, since that's just shy of 1/2 inch.

Back to the nails...so do you suggest I get some 4-5" hot dipped lags, pre-drill holes, and drive them in? I thought that since I'll be nailing the shims to the existing ACQ pads, I'd be okay nailing into the shims.

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, the lags are just cheap insurance that everything stays put...yeah that`s what i`d do.
so, what scoot do ya` ride? i used to ride an old shovel stroker for lotsa years but quit riding after son was born untill i feel i`ve calmed down enough not to kill myself...not yet:) tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, the lags are just cheap insurance that everything stays put...yeah that`s what i`d do.
so, what scoot do ya` ride? i used to ride an old shovel stroker for lotsa years but quit riding after son was born untill i feel i`ve calmed down enough not to kill myself...not yet:) tod

Tod,

I guess the lags wouldn't be that much more work. Pre-drilling and driving is indeed cheap insurance.

I know it's been discussed here before, but I can't find the thread. What are your thoughts on the '7-ply birch' that the borgs sell?

Ok scoots, nice change of subject... :D

My current ride is an '88 FLTP Police Interceptor that I bought new in '87. The Washington DC Park Police ordered one too many and I just happened to be at the dealership getting oil for my '81 Shovel when they were boxing it p to send it back. I have 158,000 miles on it so far...:p

I've had cast iron Skirtsters, built a '42 flathead from the ground up for my ex-wife, rode a severly chopped and raked pan with a suicide shifter...the list goes on.

And I can relate to the retiring the stroker. I still feel the need to get the FLTP up to 100mph every time I get on it...and usually do if only for a mile or so...

Thanks again for your help on this Tod.

- Marty -

[tod evans]

you`re welcome marty, as this ol` hippie/biker/hillbilly wishes he had the wind in his face..........i`ll go cut some boards. tod


[edit] borg birch is a utility grade product

[Marty Walsh]

you`re welcome marty, as this ol` hippie/biker/hillbilly wishes he had the wind in his face..........i`ll go cut some boards. tod


[edit] borg birch is a utility grade product

Utility grade = not for this application?

- Marty -

[tod evans]

Utility grade = not for this application?

- Marty -

i wouldn`t.

[Marty Walsh]

i wouldn`t.

Ok kewl...I'll hunt some good baltic down this morning, get some 4" dipped lags, and git'r'done...

- Marty -

[Ben Grunow]

Marty- maybe we are related? I just finished trimming, flashing and siding my house (only took from November to April for 30 windows and about 40 squares of cedar shingles) myself. Now I'm on to the rough plumbing, electrical and HVAC-myself. I have learned that the only way to survive a seemingly overwhelming project is to not think about the big picture. Just focus on each little aspect of the job until it is complete and move on to the next item. Sooner or later there are no items left. I work 5 days as a builder/carpenter and 2 hours each night and Sat and Sun on my house and will for another year or so. Maybe you will finish before me? I will follow your progress and update you on mine. Good luck and keep after it.

[Marty Walsh]

Marty- maybe we are related? I just finished trimming, flashing and siding my house (only took from November to April for 30 windows and about 40 squares of cedar shingles) myself. Now I'm on to the rough plumbing, electrical and HVAC-myself. I have learned that the only way to survive a seemingly overwhelming project is to not think about the big picture. Just focus on each little aspect of the job until it is complete and move on to the next item. Sooner or later there are no items left. I work 5 days as a builder/carpenter and 2 hours each night and Sat and Sun on my house and will for another year or so. Maybe you will finish before me? I will follow your progress and update you on mine. Good luck and keep after it.

Ben,

I realized EARLY on that focusing on the task at hand is the only way I'll keep my sanity on this project. Looking at the big picture is beyond overwhelming!

Luckily, (or not), I'm working on this full time. I average 12-14 hours a day, although sometimes my progress doesn't show it!

Good luck on the house. And thanks for watching...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

TIme for an update...

When we last tuned in, there was trouble in paradise.

The piers didn't align the way I had hoped. Well, with the help of Tod, and his advice to use a water level to double check everything, I'm back on track.

I spent the entire day yesterday trying to shoot the site. My fancy-schmancy laser level is history! Using it, I shot the site carefully from the center of the site and thought I had it licked. Just to make sure, I moved the laser and shot it from beyond the site. I got different readings! I tried again from another position and got yet another different set of readings. They were close, but close-enough just ain't what I'm after here!!! :eek:

LESSON OF THE DAY...if you're gonna use a laser level, it had better be SELF LEVELLING! That's where my problem was. A pair of (relatively) old eyes can only do so well centering the bubble in two vials that dictate accuracy over 60-70 feet!!

So, what I present to you is a modifcation on Tod's water level. I tried a plain water level, but the combination of the grade of the site, and having to traverse the already in place beams to get to the piers, (me over, level under), I was making a mess and spilling water. So, I came up with the following:

40536

I filled a bucket partially full of water. I then created a platform to raise the bucket such that the water in the bucket was at approximately the same height as my highest pier. (Finding that highest pier was part of the messy Revision One level.) I duct taped a hose into the bucket such that it was at or near the bottom of the bucket.

I then cobbled together this:
40539

With the aid of some red food coloring, and a little Dawn dish detergent, I took the other end of the hose and duct taped it to a chunk of 2x4. I took this 'assembly' to my highest pier and clamped it to the beam sitting on the pier.

Once the water quit moving and levelled out, I marked a zero reference:
40537

Using this zero reference, I walked to each and every pier, measuring the delta from my reference and writing it on the pier pad:
40538

I did this THREE TIMES, adding water to the bucket to force a new zero reference, just to make sure I was spot on. (measure twice, cut once...nah, measure THREE TIMES!)

FIVE HOURS LATER, at the conclusion of this exercise, I had dead-on measurements for the required pier "shims". All three runs came up with EXACTLY the same readings. THANKS TOD!!!!! ;)

And that's where this post ends, since I need to post more pictures...

To be continued...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

So, with new references for the pier heights, I set out to make shims from various thicknesses of Baltic Birch. Luckily I had some in stock in my shop storage, since trying to find some locally proved to be impossible! I might as well have been asking for three-eyed-aardvarks!

Them: Baltic Birch? Yeah, we got some...people use dat for whittlin'.
Me: No dummy, that's BALSA!

Them: Baltic Birch? T'aint no such thing
Me: CLICK!
...

Anyway, using my newly obtained measurements, and combinations of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" baltic ply, (or the sillymeter equivilant), I created shims for the center two rows first. That meant having to go in and lift those triple beams with the tractor. At least I'm getting MUCH better with that tractor!

I have to admit, they're not the prettiest, and I wish I didn't have to do it, but the shims worked out great. Time will tell how they stand up. I'll probably flash them, or give them a good coat of something or other. Or not...
40543

Once I had the two center rows of triples shimmed, I started picking up headway again. I got the front row in place, and put on two of the side legs to help stabilize the front row:
40541

I still have to straight-line the front row. The LVLs are just sitting there not nailed together, since I want to get the back row done in the morning so I can square the structure.

Hopefully tomorrow will find me with a finished frame for the floor so I can move onto the I-Joists. I lost a day with the levelling, but at least now I'm back on track.

Thanks again for following...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

whew! i was wondering if you had tossed in the towel after no word yesterday? glad the ol` tried-n-true worked out for you, keep the tubing `cause it`ll come in handy for your sheeting and setting windows. did you ever line up some help?
thanks for posting your progress! tod

[Jerry White]

Marty,

I just have to tell you that I am enjoying your reports immensely. I look forward to following your continuing progress. I'm sorry for your problem with the pier leveling, but on the bright side, aren't you glad you discovered the problem when you did. I learned something on the laser vs water leveling. I would have thought the laser method would have been very accurate. Thank you for sharing and keep those lessons coming!

Jerry

PS: Ain't Sawmill Creek a wealth of resources?

[Marty Walsh]

whew! i was wondering if you had tossed in the towel after no word yesterday? glad the ol` tried-n-true worked out for you, keep the tubing `cause it`ll come in handy for your sheeting and setting windows. did you ever line up some help?
thanks for posting your progress! tod

Tod,

There's no tossing in the towel now. I'm committed to this (or is that, I should be committed?).

I have to hand it to you, the "hillbilly laser level" worked out GREAT!!! And I plan to keep the tubing and bucket around. That's a tool that will forever be in my arsenal from now on.

And no, I've given up on getting any help, other than Denise on occasion. I guess it's just too hot and too much labor for anyone (but dopey me!).

Speaking of heat, that's why I'm posting this in the afternoon. Denise came back from her business trip and just talked me into taking a break from swinging the hammer. It's NINETY EIGHT DEGREES out there! (That's 37 celcius Frank...)

I'm making good progress though, and will post a few shots later tonight when I get done.

Thanks again for your help Tod.
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

I just have to tell you that I am enjoying your reports immensely. I look forward to following your continuing progress. I'm sorry for your problem with the pier leveling, but on the bright side, aren't you glad you discovered the problem when you did. I learned something on the laser vs water leveling. I would have thought the laser method would have been very accurate. Thank you for sharing and keep those lessons coming!

Jerry

PS: Ain't Sawmill Creek a wealth of resources?

Jerry,

Glad you're enjoying my postings/ramblings.

As for the piers, I didn't expect them to be perfect, and finding out when I did was really expected. I couldn't tell until I get the beams up and in place. It was a little disheartening to find out just how much they were off, but they're fine now with the shims.

I'm pretty sure a SELF-LEVELING laser level would have worked. I just couldn't afford one! The manual Stabila I got on sale at Amazon for under $300. The cheapest, good quality, self-leveller was over $1000. Too rich for my budget for sure!

And heck yeah, creekers are some terrific folks! People tell me I'm crazy to be doing this alone. I keep reminding myself, I'm not alone. I have the vast knowledge of the creek helping! ;)

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, you`re welcome! hopefully i can spare you a few busted knuckles and torn muscles before you`re done? i`ve been working by my self for quite a few years now and have figured out some hillbilly solutions for getting things done.
it`s smart to break in the heat of the day, it`s mid 90`s here too so i`m off the jobsight and in the shop with my fan for a while.
glad you`ve got it goin` your way. tod

[Michael Gabbay]

Marty -

I just got some three-eyed-aardvarks in, where should I send them? :D Good deal on the water level. The food coloring was a nice idea.

Mike

[Marty Walsh]

Marty -

I just got some three-eyed-aardvarks in, where should I send them? :D Good deal on the water level. The food coloring was a nice idea.

Mike

Mike,

Dang, Denise was just up there in Oakton. I could have had her pick them up on her drive home! :rolleyes:

And thanks to Tod for the food coloring idea.

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Close, but no cigar...

I had another busy and mostly productive day today. I got all the remaining LVLs in place on my newly shimmed piers. I started to square the structure, but quickly realized I needed to nail the double LVLs together to be able to safely move them during squaring. Hammering a few hundred nails in 98 degree heat sure took its toll on me. Bless her heart, Denise tried to help me drive some, but she couldn't swing my 28oz framing hammer too well. :(

It's starting to look more and more like...something other than just a field of piers:
40599

Ok, so with everything securely nailed, I got back to squaring. I then decided to check the levelness of everything since I had all the LVLs up. I grabbed an I-Joist, and without bothering to cut it to proper length, slid it along the top of the center beams.

I was getting ready to pat myself on the back, and send Tod another thanks, when I found this:
40600

I'm WAAAAAY closer than I was before the shims, but close just doesn't cut it! I can't figure out what happened, especially since I did the whole levelling process three times and got the same readings each time. :confused:

As you can see, I'm off about 1/2" on the back row. Luckily, there are shims back there that can be removed if that's what needed...once I fight out the ring shanked nails. :mad:

Good thing I left the bucket and hose out. I'll be going through that process ONE MORE TIME in the morning.

Now if only "Murphy" would leave the area so I can get some work done, I'd be in business!

Another 100 degree day in store for me tomorrow. Should be interesting...hopefully I can get things levelled and move on to squaring it up. I'm so anxious to get the floor in, but I know it HAS to be right or the rest of the building will suffer.

Hey, no one ever said this was going to be easy. :rolleyes:
- Marty -

[Jim O'Dell]

Bummer, Marty. Something tells me that after a good nights sleep, thing will look up quickly in the morning and you'll be back to squaring in no time. Keep it up but be carefull in this heat. Lots and lots of water. Jim.

[Marty Walsh]

Bummer, Marty. Something tells me that after a good nights sleep, thing will look up quickly in the morning and you'll be back to squaring in no time. Keep it up but be carefull in this heat. Lots and lots of water. Jim.

Jim,

That's what I'm hoping/thinking....

And first thing I do in the morning is fill my cooler with 24 bottles of water and ice! I go through pretty much the entire cooler every day!

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, a sawzall is the best way to pull ringshanks. heck it may be easier to shim up the other beams instead of lowering the ones you`ve shimmed? wish i was a little closer i`d come help for a day....tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, a sawzall is the best way to pull ringshanks. heck it may be easier to shim up the other beams instead of lowering the ones you`ve shimmed? wish i was a little closer i`d come help for a day....tod

'Morning Tod,

The sawzall is already out there. I've just refilled the tube and am letting the bubbles settle out of it before I start.

I thought about adding more shims to other sections. I'll have to wait and see what the level tells me needs to be done.

Sure you don't wanna take a vacation in Georgia? :D

Thanks for the offer...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, i`ve got so much on my plate right now i`m in the shop at 7:15 sunday morning trying to make headway. try and get out of the heat it`ll zap ya` if you`re not carefull. i`m going through 1-1 1/2 gallons of icetea every day and heading for the shelter of the shop early afternoon. good luck this morning! tod

[Marty Walsh]

Murphy went home...

Jim, you were right. A good nights sleep, (after a good steak dinner and a few cocktails), and all is well this morning.

I got the "hillbilly laser level" prepared and devised an even more precise way of using it. I showed Denise how to use it, and let her take all the measurements so I'd have a fresh set of eyes on the process.

Here's what we came up with. We used the same principal of setting the level of water in the bucket to EXACTLY the height of my 'zero reference' (highest, unshimmed) pier. We then attached the tube to a center finder ruler that's graduated in 1/32".

Here's my measurer at work:
40618

I then took a copy of my Sketchup drawing showing the pier level, and walked with Denise as she took measurements and read them to me. Much to my amazement and delight, the most we were off anywhere was 3/32!! Over half of them are EXACT, the remainder are within 1/32" to a 1/16"!!!!

This did NOT make sense, since you can see in the picture that the I-Joist is off an inch. And moving it around, at its worst, it was off almost 1 1/2"!! How could that be since my shimming was within the tolerances that it is?

...

Duh! We learned a valuable lesson this morning about FORTY FOOT LONG I-Joists. They must have developed a bit of a sag being banded on their way here. All we did was turned the I-Joist over and here's what we got:

40619

It's DEAD ON, (well within maybe a 1/16" :rolleyes: )

Here are the ends and a center shot:
40620 40621 40622

Denise is still outside laughing at me. I was SO MAD and embarrassed at myself. I couldn't imagine that I was off over an inch and a half, especially after spending so many hours doing the whole process THREE TIMES!

I told her I was coming in here to make this post, mostly to redeem myself, and let you all know I'm not the careless twit I appeared to be... :p

Ok, back out into the heat. I'll bet Denise is still laughing...
- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

Marty - You did redeem yourself. Until you posted that close-up of your hands, that is. Nice job on the nails!:D

[Michael Gabbay]

Marty - good to hear it was just a sagging joist. Hurry up and get that decking on before you find anything else.

BTW how do you keep your nails so nice with all your hard work? :D

[Jim O'Dell]

Marty - You did redeem yourself. Until you posted that close-up of your hands, that is. Nice job on the nails!:D


snip
BTW how do you keep your nails so nice with all your hard work? :D


Leave him alone, guys...it's just the reflection of the colored water in that levelling device!!!:D :D :D

Marty, I'm glad it was just fatigue. Been there, done that too many times. In fact, I just came in from being out in my unventelated shop for the past 3 hours. Refused to look at the thermometer I've got out there. I've been up on a ladder with my head against the roof working on my cyclone piping. I can stand there and not make any sense out of what I'm doing, so that's it, I'm done. Maybe my mind will clear and I can develop a strategy for how to tackle it, from inside the house. Work safely and take plenty of breaks. Jim.

[Art Mulder]

It's DEAD ON, (well within maybe a 1/16" :rolleyes: )


I thought 1/8" was considered close enough in rough carpentry...

Glad the solution was simple, I was hoping for your sake that it was something like that.

enjoying the saga...

...art

[Marty Walsh]

Leave him alone, guys...it's just the reflection of the colored water in that levelling device!!!:D :D :D

.
.
.
Jim.

Actually gentlemen, I always wear gloves when I'm out there, but this was a PRECISION operation and I needed full dexterity to be able to maintain 1/32" tolerances...:D

Good thing I didn't show you a shot of my feet :rolleyes:

- Marty -



(taking a break from the heat for a while. The thermometer in the shade says 103. The evening news said the 'heat index' yesterday was 113 degrees, (44.99 Celcius Frank) and it's just as hot today, if not hotter! :eek: )

[Frank Chaffee]

Marty,
I too, cleave to a mature woman, and I find your wife’s hands to be absolutely luscious.
Frank

[tod evans]

so marty, where are you progress wise on monday morning? have you ordered out decking yet? with the hours you`re putting in you should be ready by the end of the week....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

so marty, where are you progress wise on monday morning? have you ordered out decking yet? with the hours you`re putting in you should be ready by the end of the week....02 tod

'Morning Tod,

Well, the structure is square and mostly lagged down:
40662

I have to admit, squaring this beast sure isn't as easy as squaring case work, drawers or frames! The principals were the same, but I had to resort to an 8lb sledge to make my adjustments!

The lag bolts were a good idea Tod...talk about solid feeling!!! Thanks! I just might be going overboard with them:
40663

(And I have to remember to remove my wide-angle lens when I'm not shooting pics of the whole structure. Those beams really aren't curved!!!)

The way the floor system was spec'ed, I was supposed to just butt and toe-nail the three single layer end beams on the short sides. As you can see, I used one of the cutoffs as a blocker, then I used a pair of 5" lags down into the triple beam. Oh, and there are 8-3" screws holding it together too! :rolleyes:

I left off the far side short beams since that's how I plan to manhandle those 40' I-joists up onto the beams. I'll close that end off when I'm done with the joists.

That's where I am...but here's what's happening now:
40664

It seems that the first tropical storm of the season is heading towards us. The local news said it was supposed to hit by some time late last night or early this morning, so Denise and I were out there until after 10pm TARPING the structure! I now have a new found respect for those guys that tarp sports fields. I never realised just how heavy and awkward large tarps are!

And to answer your question, the decking is already sitting at the suppliers yard. It was supposed to be delivered this morning, but given the delays and snags I've hit, I asked him to hold it there. (I figured it's HIS responsibility to keep it safe and dry until delivery. Once less thing I'd have to tarp...)

The plan was for me to start knocking out the I-Joists starting this morning, but I'm going to wait and see what Mother Nature has in mind for me. If we dont' get hit too hard, I just might be ready for decking next Monday.

After the I-joists, I have to staple the hardware cloth on the under side of the joists, and then add the insulation. THEN I'll be ready for the decking.

I'm really looking forward to the decking, since I'm using Advantech and it's not nearly as succeptible to rain damage.

Taking a much needed break today...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, i`m glad you went with the lags. framers don`t like them `cause ya` can`t shoot `em but they`ll make the whole assembly sturdy. while you`re taking the day off check on the electric caulk guns for your subfloor adhesive, you`re forearm will really be gratefull. also if you don`t allready own one now is a really good time to buy a pneumatic upholstery stapler, they work great for hardware cloth, housewrap ect. and they`re usually not real expensive, i paid well under 100bucks for mine and it`s a passlode....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, i`m glad you went with the lags. framers don`t like them `cause ya` can`t shoot `em but they`ll make the whole assembly sturdy. while you`re taking the day off check on the electric caulk guns for your subfloor adhesive, you`re forearm will really be gratefull. also if you don`t allready own one now is a really good time to buy a pneumatic upholstery stapler, they work great for hardware cloth, housewrap ect. and they`re usually not real expensive, i paid well under 100bucks for mine and it`s a passlode....02 tod

Tod,

Yeah, I can understand not being able to shoot them. Heck, I had to resort to a rachet since my cordless drill driver could only get them in about half way! But you're right, sturdy is an understatement!!

I thought about one of those cordless caulkers, and will probably go that route. I have the adhesive here already, since I'm going to be using a dab on the bottom of the joist hangers before the I-Joists are set into them. (Four cases...my forearm's sore already just carrying them into the garage!!)

Got any brand preferences? Unfortunately, Dewalt doesn't make one, since that's the brand of my other cordless stuff and I'd always have a battery charged and ready (have four XRP batteries that rotate on the chargers).

And as for the stapler...I was thinking of going the Senco route, but not an upholstery stapler. I was looking at the Senco SLS18 for shooting 1/2" staples. Is that too much tool/staple?

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, the sls series staplers will countersink the staples, not what you want for screen wire or house wrap. if there`s a senco dealer close ask about a "c"series gun. as far as a shop stapler goes i use the sks series. for caulking go with the milwaukee. on lags i drive `em with a pneumatic impact makes short work of the job. tod

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marty........It does my heart good to see someone worrying about doing quality work at this stage in your project! It'll be there a long time and it will remain stable! Great work! Keep posting!

[Marty Walsh]

Marty........It does my heart good to see someone worrying about doing quality work at this stage in your project! It'll be there a long time and it will remain stable! Great work! Keep posting!

Ken,

Thanks for the kind words. I only have the chance to do this once, so I'm doing everything within my power to do it right. Plus, I plan to spend just about every day in there. It would drive me crazy if I wound up with a non-level, non-square or spongy feeling shop by my own hands, knowing that "if I had only...".

Plus, before we moved south, we lived near the "urban sprawl and crawl" of the Northern VA/DC area. It never ceased to amaze me how quickly, and how SHODDY they could slap up a home. I got a good lesson in what NOT to do by watching those crews.

- Marty -

[Michael Gabbay]

Marty -

You mean everyone does not use an 8lb sledge to square up their case work???? :confused: Geez, maybe I need to rethink my tool selection. :D

I hear you about the local builders up here. It makes remodeling a very interesting challenge.

Good luck with the storm. Keep the photos coming.

Mike

[Marty Walsh]

Alberto's come and gone...

Initial reports show somewhere between 5-7 inches of rain here yesterday. Mercifully, no sustained winds over 35-40mph. Boy am I glad we tarped everything! :rolleyes:

40820 40824

There's got to be an easier way to get things covered when a storm is heading our way, but I think we did a passable job for our initial attempt.

We used sisel rope to tie the main parts of the tarps down, rounds of Oak where we needed weight, and Quick clamps (heavily coated w/WD-40) where we needed to control mid-span wafting from the winds. Oh, and when we saw how bad the wind 'ballooned' the tarps, we tied rope mid span to cut the balloons in half:

40821 40823 40822

I'm thinking about getting some of those hard rubber bungee cords, like you see holding down tarps on tractor-trailer loads. That should be easier than having to hand tie everything. I know there's no way regular bungee cords would have held. There was some SERIOUS tension in those tarps when the storm actually passed through here!! I was worried I was going to see my framework airborn a few times, but those lag bolts seemed to be holding just fine!

I'm open to suggestions if anyone has any tricks for covering something this large. (Aside from getting the crew from a local sports stadium!!)

As I said earlier, I'm looking forward to getting the Advantech down so I don't have to worry quite so much about the rain. By then, the insulation will be covered by the decking, as will all the joists and all but the outside perimeters of the LVLs.

Which brings up my next question...

What do you folks think about having to keep things covered once I have the decking down, while I'm framing, etc.? I see construction sites all the time that are left uncovered for very long periods of time. It's rare, in fact, to see a site where things get covered. The rain HAS to have an effect on the lumber...is it just not enough of an effect to worry about?

I have no problem with being out there brooming the water off the deck, if that's what it takes. Anything to not have to drag these huge tarps around.

...

Well, Alberto is just about done here. It's still misting a little, so I'm waiting before I pull the tarps and get back to work. I hope to be out there this afternoon...

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, my biggest concern would be the insulation not the wood. the advanteck is good stuff but it may still leak some at the seams. i`d spend my time trying to get a roof over it instead of tarping and untarping, even the tgi`s can stand a few soakings. have you made plans for setting the trusses yet? once your deck is down the walls will go fast, even with one guy, but setting trusses singlehandedly is something you need to start thinking about....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, my biggest concern would be the insulation not the wood. the advanteck is good stuff but it may still leak some at the seams. i`d spend my time trying to get a roof over it instead of tarping and untarping, even the tgi`s can stand a few soakings. have you made plans for setting the trusses yet? once your deck is down the walls will go fast, even with one guy, but setting trusses singlehandedly is something you need to start thinking about....02 tod

Tod,

The insulation is my concern as well. I'm even toying with the idea of postponing the installation of it until I have a roof up. It would be a royal PITA to do it from underneath, but at least then I know I can keep it dry until it gets installed. Is there an obvious flaw in that plan?

And the trusses...ah, the trusses. I've begun looking into getting a crane (and operator) out here to assist me with that. I thought I might be able to cheat and use a block and tackle with the aid of the tractor, but I've nixed that idea in the name of safety and my health. I'm even going to try to enlist the help of a neighbors or two the day the crane is here.

I'll probably have more questions before I tackle the trusses, but for now I'm concentrating on the tasks at hand.

I untarped everything today, and finished getting all the lag bolts in, and the beams straightened. I'll be starting on the I-Joists first thing in the morning.

- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, if you bought unfaced fiberglass it won`t hurt it to get slightly damp, like what may leak through the seams. if it`s faced the kraft paper could be damaged( big deal!) it`s floor insulation in georgia afterall. and the underside of the insulation will be open to the enviornment so it`ll dry out...not so with cellouse! tod

[Randy Moore]

Marty,

Good looking design, I wish my shop was that big but mine is approx 20 x 20 and in my basement.

How do you plan on getting to the attic? I am a sheet metal worker who has had to take old furnaces/A. C. systems out of some tight spaces or up/down some way to steep steps. I hope that you will put in some steps that can handle a load. Air compressor ain't light either.

Again good looking shop

Randy

[Marty Walsh]

marty, if you bought unfaced fiberglass it won`t hurt it to get slightly damp, like what may leak through the seams. if it`s faced the kraft paper could be damaged( big deal!) it`s floor insulation in georgia afterall. and the underside of the insulation will be open to the enviornment so it`ll dry out...not so with cellouse! tod

Tod,

I spec'ed unfaced, but the supply house sent me kraft for the same price. I didn't complain. I hadn't planned to staple the paper to the joists though, (never could understand why you'd do that and then try to have construction adhesive stick to the joist with the paper in the way). I have hanger rods that get installed below it and support it.

The more I think about it, installing it before the decking goes on is probably less strain and stress on me, since I can do it standing up instead of crawling around with the insulation over my head. I need to decide in the next few days since I'm not far from that step.

I guess you're right about it drying out since it'll be exposed from below. Maybe I'm over-worrying...?

I'd just like to avoid that whole tarp nightmare if at all possible ... :o

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

Good looking design, I wish my shop was that big but mine is approx 20 x 20 and in my basement.

How do you plan on getting to the attic? I am a sheet metal worker who has had to take old furnaces/A. C. systems out of some tight spaces or up/down some way to steep steps. I hope that you will put in some steps that can handle a load. Air compressor ain't light either.

Again good looking shop

Randy

Randy,

Thanks. Like I said early on in this post, I have the room, and have always outgrown any shop I had before. I have the chance to do this now, so why not...? ;)

As for attic access, I spoke with the HVAC guy a few days ago. I showed him my updated plans which include the attic space, since I first went to him with a 4:12 roof and no attic. Since the trusses are 24 o.c., I plan to spread a pair out to 30" and install large attic stairs. He said that would be fine since they usually take out the coils from the air-handler before moving it in place anyway.

In addition, Denise had an idea that has me toying with the idea of having the truss company modify the gable end truss on one side to incorporate a door akin to what you'd find on a hay mow. I'll be talking to the truss folks soon and will see what they think. I'll be sure to post an update once that conversation takes place. But even without that door, I'm hoping the stairs will suffice.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Jim Becker]

I spec'ed unfaced, but the supply house sent me kraft for the same price. I didn't complain. I hadn't planned to staple the paper to the joists though, (never could understand why you'd do that and then try to have construction adhesive stick to the joist with the paper in the way). I have hanger rods that get installed below it and support it.

Unless you're installing it from above...no staples...as the kraft paper needs to be on the floor side. The wire hangers are generally enough to hold it up, although I suggest you also string wire/cable/chicken-wire/strapping/whatever to insure nothing drops out over time since it's not an enclosed space like a crawl space. Chicken wire would also help keep out the larger critters from below.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Marty, This is the first time I have been on the internet since last Thursday, so I had a lot of reading to do to catch up with all that you have done simce then. Nice job, and I particularly like your water level.

I would certainly advise keeping all material, with the possible exception of pressure treated wood, under cover.

I would put down the floor insulation first. Are you using the fine galvized mesh under the insulation like I did? If you are, I would put that in place before the insulation.

I guess that it is too late for you, but I used rock wool insulation rather than fibergalss for my shop. It can get a little wet without damage and critters don't like it very much.

[Marty Walsh]

Unless you're installing it from above...no staples...as the kraft paper needs to be on the floor side. The wire hangers are generally enough to hold it up, although I suggest you also string wire/cable/chicken-wire/strapping/whatever to insure nothing drops out over time since it's not an enclosed space like a crawl space. Chicken wire would also help keep out the larger critters from below.

Jim,

I think I'm going to be installing it from above. I had thought to install from below, after I have the roof up, just to protect it from the elements, but I'm thinking that's more trouble than it's worth!

In addition to the wire hangers, I'm following Frank's lead and stapling 1/4" galv hardware cloth under all the trusses. I know all too well how the critters around here like insulation!!

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Hi Marty, This is the first time I have been on the internet since last Thursday, so I had a lot of reading to do to catch up with all that you have done simce then. Nice job, and I particularly like your water level.

I would certainly advise keeping all material, with the possible exception of pressure treated wood, under cover.

I would put down the floor insulation first. Are you using the fine galvized mesh under the insulation like I did? If you are, I would put that in place before the insulation.

I guess that it is too late for you, but I used rock wool insulation rather than fibergalss for my shop. It can get a little wet without damage and critters don't like it very much.

Hi Frank,

Yeah, Tod's idea of the water level worked out GREAT! (So good in fact, that I returned my fancy laser level!!!)

As for keeping everything covered, I'm hoping the Advantech sheathing I'm using for the floor, and the 2x6's for the framing, will withstand an occasional downpour. If it looks like we're going to get some sustained rain, I'll plan to get everything I can under cover. But Frank, here's yet another example of my scaling your shop up. Covering this structure is NO EASY task!!! Those pictures show two tarps that are 60'x40', and another that's 40'x20', and I still didn't have enough!

I guess I just cross my fingers and hope the hurricane season slows down until I get a roof up! :rolleyes:

Yes, I'm using the 1/4" galvanized hardware cloth...thanks for the idea. One major difference is that I can get it stapled in place quite a bit easier than you did. In the front of the shop, I'll have to lay down to get it done, but as I work towards the back, I can do it almost standing upright. I remember the hassle you faced, and the inventive way you tackled it!

The current plan is to install the I-Joists, staple the hardware cloth under them, then install the wire hangers followed by the insulation. I'm trying to get as much done as I can by the weekend so I can have the Advantech delivered on Monday. We'll see how it goes...

Oh, and around here, for whatever reason, rock wool is unheard of. It would be a very special order, and the price would reflect it! The price on fiberglass is outrageous enough!! :eek:

Thanks for stopping by. I hope to have a lot more done for your next visit...
- Marty -

[Phil Maddox]

Absolutely Awesome!!!

You seemed to have a great plan for everything.

One question, do I understand that you will not be enclosing the bottom (exposed) of the floor system and just covering it with wire? That sounds like a breeding ground for bugs and such. I would also want some more protection from moisture than that.

Good luck!!!

Phil

[Marty Walsh]

Absolutely Awesome!!!

You seemed to have a great plan for everything.

One question, do I understand that you will not be enclosing the bottom (exposed) of the floor system and just covering it with wire? That sounds like a breeding ground for bugs and such. I would also want some more protection from moisture than that.

Good luck!!!

Phil

Phil,

Thanks, I've been planning this adventure for quite some time. It's exciting to see my plans come to life...exhausting, but exciting!

You have it right. I'm leaving the bottom of the floor trusses open, except for 1/4" galvanized hardware cloth, with 9" insulation in the cavaties. It should keep the critters from mouse size on up at bay. It should even deter all but the smallest of snakes around here. As for the bugs, there's little I could hope to do. This is southern Georgia afterall! :mad:

By the way, the idea of leaving the space open has been discussed. Frank led the way for me in his thread here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8790). Thanks Frank...;)

Seriously, I'll either have the underside professionally sprayed, or do it myself. And since I have relatively easy access to the entire underside, I can treat it as frequently as necessary.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[edit] Oh, and don't forget that there's 6mil plastic under that 11 ton of gravel. It seems to be providing an excellent vabor barrier, even with all the rain we just got. We'll see...

[tod evans]

Tod,

I spec'ed unfaced, but the supply house sent me kraft for the same price. I didn't complain. I hadn't planned to staple the paper to the joists though, (never could understand why you'd do that and then try to have construction adhesive stick to the joist with the paper in the way). I have hanger rods that get installed below it and support it.

The more I think about it, installing it before the decking goes on is probably less strain and stress on me, since I can do it standing up instead of crawling around with the insulation over my head. I need to decide in the next few days since I'm not far from that step.

I guess you're right about it drying out since it'll be exposed from below. Maybe I'm over-worrying...?

I'd just like to avoid that whole tarp nightmare if at all possible ... :o

- Marty -


marty, since you`re installing screen wire under the tgi`s i wouldn`t bother with the hanger wires. i`d also return the kraft faced insulation and use unfaced just `cause if it does get wet during construction the fiberglass will dry much faster than the kraft paper. the idea of a door in the gable end is ingenious! how `bout a landing and staircase for outside access? even a steel beam cantalevered out past the landing to winch heavy objects up to landing height? keep the posts comming! tod

[Jim Becker]

Tod, many retail suppliers don't bother to stock un-faced insulation in any kind of quantity these days outside of R25 blankets. That's probably why Marty's supplier substituted the kraft-faced material. That said, they should be able to order it from their wholesale supplier if they really want to or Marty asks them to.

[Marty Walsh]

Tod, many retail suppliers don't bother to stock un-faced insulation in any kind of quantity these days outside of R25 blankets. That's probably why Marty's supplier substituted the kraft-faced material. That said, they should be able to order it from their wholesale supplier if they really want to or Marty asks them to.

Jim,

I thought I'd check the creek for updates while I wait for my supplier to call me back about the WRONG SIMPSON BRACKETS THEY SENT ME!!! I didn't bother checking when they made the delivery, since I was too busy checking all the large stuff. My bad... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Jim, you're right about them not stocking unfaced. That's why they sent me the kraft. Is it enough of an issue for me to have them special order me unfaced and delay my progress? I understand the issue of the paper possibly getting wet. I'm just not sure HOW much of an issue it might be.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, since you`re installing screen wire under the tgi`s i wouldn`t bother with the hanger wires. i`d also return the kraft faced insulation and use unfaced just `cause if it does get wet during construction the fiberglass will dry much faster than the kraft paper. the idea of a door in the gable end is ingenious! how `bout a landing and staircase for outside access? even a steel beam cantalevered out past the landing to winch heavy objects up to landing height? keep the posts comming! tod

Tod,

Hey, I like the idea of a landing and stairs to the landing. And the idea of a steel beam is a good one too! But, I need to think about how to support that steel beam, since it really can't be hung from the trusses.

However, I'm still on the fence about the door idea. I'm trying to think through the issue of sealing that door. Since my HVAC air handler will be up there, and there will be attic stairs to the shop below, I'm not sure I want a potentially un-sealable door at the end of the attic.

I need to think this through a little more...but thanks for kicking Denise's idea 'up a notch' ;)

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, since you`re installing screen wire under the tgi`s i wouldn`t bother with the hanger wires. i`d also return the kraft faced insulation and use unfaced just `cause if it does get wet during construction the fiberglass will dry much faster than the kraft paper. the idea of a door in the gable end is ingenious! how `bout a landing and staircase for outside access? even a steel beam cantalevered out past the landing to winch heavy objects up to landing height? keep the posts comming! tod

Tod,

I forgot to ask you something about this post...

You say to nix the insulation hangers, since there's going to be hardware cloth under the I-Joists. If the insulation is just resting on the hardware cloth, wouldn't that make it easier for critters to get at it? In my mind, the hangers would keep it supported a few inches above the cloth...out of critters reach.

But then again, if I just rest it on the hardware cloth, there'll be an air gap between the kraft paper and the decking...potentially letting a little air in to help it dry if it does get wet. And not having to install those hangers, saves me time and a little money.

Decisions decisions... :confused:
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, if the idea of wet paper bothers you it pulls off easily. if you opt for a door on the gable end you could nix the inside access as you wouldn`t need it. on the steel/landing, the steel could be seperate from the actual building, in fact it would be better if it was. i`d set the bottom of the beam 8-10 ft above the landing so when you pull up stuff like an 80 gal compressor you could set it down with no issues. building double doors shouldn`t be much trouble or an off the shelf roll up unit would work too...02 tod

[Jim Becker]

Marty, I can't imagine that it would take them a long time to get the material you want...they just need to call their OC, Certainteed or JM wholesaler and ask for it. Unless they are REALLY off the beaten path.....and as Tod says, you can just rip the facing off. (As I did for my kitchen renovation a few years ago since I wanted to use a polyethylene vapor barrier instead of kraft)

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, I can't imagine that it would take them a long time to get the material you want...they just need to call their OC, Certainteer or JM wholesaler and ask for it. Unless they are REALLY off the beaten path.....and as Tod says, you can just rip the facing off. (As I did for my kitchen renovation a few years ago since I wanted to use a polyethylene vapor barrier instead of kraft)

Jim,

I just spoke with them (about my WRONG Simpson brackets). They said it would take them AT LEAST 10 DAYS to get unfaced to me. (We're definetly off the beaten path...in fact you can't get TO the path from here...:p )

I guess I'll look into ripping off the paper while I'm installing it.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, if the idea of wet paper bothers you it pulls off easily. if you opt for a door on the gable end you could nix the inside access as you wouldn`t need it. on the steel/landing, the steel could be seperate from the actual building, in fact it would be better if it was. i`d set the bottom of the beam 8-10 ft above the landing so when you pull up stuff like an 80 gal compressor you could set it down with no issues. building double doors shouldn`t be much trouble or an off the shelf roll up unit would work too...02 tod

Tod,

I told Denise about you kicking her idea up a notch. We just had a conversation about this, and came to the same conclusion about the interior attic stairs not being necessary.

The only problem she sees is that I'd want the stairs to come straight out from the shop, (no turns or intermediary landings). She doesn't approve of that idea, since I'd be encroaching on her vegetable garden space!! :eek:

I'm definelty going to spend some time in Sketchup tonight mocking something up. I really like the idea, just need to work out some details...

Thanks...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, the stairs can twist-n-turn all they need to if you`re able to install the beam/winch combo `cause you`d never be packing anything up them heavy....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, the stairs can twist-n-turn all they need to if you`re able to install the beam/winch combo `cause you`d never be packing anything up them heavy....02 tod

Boy Tod,

You and Denise beat me to the punch! She emphasized the same thing as she watched me draw this...

40977

Unfortunately, she has all sorts of ideas for the potential storage that's going to result from this 'attic'!!! :eek:

What I still need some assistance on is the 'iron' that would be involved in this. We've decided that I can make doors that would swing IN, so whatever "lift" we come up with can live outside. But, how would I mount it? What would be the bearing points for the lift? Etc...? How would I support the weight of the stairs if they included an x100Lb lift???

How about some input from the creative minds of the creek? Let's design a lift to my 'loft'.... :p

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

37 more to go....

What a waste of time today was! I didn't pay attention closely enough when they delivered my Truss-Joist materials. The Simpson brackets they sent with that load were for FOURTEEN INCH I-Joists. I'm using 11 7/8 I-joists!!

After loosing the better part of the day, I finally got the right brackets and starting making headway:
40978

There's TEN done so far. Not too bad considering I lost most of the day chasing down the Simpson brackets! Only THIRTY SEVEN to go! :eek:

It looks like the extra time we took to make sure everything was level, etc., had paid off. The I-Joists are going in like they were made for the shop!!!! :
40979

The one thing that's going to slow me down is that they spec'ed "web stiffeners" on every I-Joist at EVERY interection with a beam:
40980

So I've been batch cutting chunks of 7/8" OSB and nailing it in at every intersetcion.

Back at it at sun-up...
- Marty -

[Norman Hitt]

Boy Tod,

What I still need some assistance on is the 'iron' that would be involved in this. We've decided that I can make doors that would swing IN, so whatever "lift" we come up with can live outside. But, how would I mount it? What would be the bearing points for the lift? Etc...? How would I support the weight of the stairs if they included an x100Lb lift???

How about some input from the creative minds of the creek? Let's design a lift to my 'loft'.... :p

Thanks...
- Marty -

Marty, have you considered installing an "I Beam" right under the Ridge beam, like the old barns used in their haylofts? I would think probably 15" long would be about right, with 10' mounted inside the loft and 5' extending outside the loft doors past the Gable end. With one of these installed, and the use of a "Beam Trolly", you could use a manual chain hoist, OR an electric hoist to lift items up by themselves or placed on a lifting platform or cage, and then pull the lifted item inside the loft via the Beam and Beam Trolley. Note: The beam should probably be a specialty beam, made for this purpose, slightly different from a normal "I Beam", but the Beam Trolly's are only about $50 when on sale at Harbor Freight. You would notch the top center of the swing in doors so they would close around the Beam that protrudes out from the loft doors. These Beam sections are many times available at salvage yards, used, from Mfr plants, etc.

OOPS!!!!!! I just came in on page 13 this time, and missed Tod's post and your reply on pg 12, about the I Beam, Marty. Oh well, still a good idea.

[tod evans]

marty, for the stairs/porch/beam i`d go right back to the sono-tubes only this time instead of simpson ties set "i" beams into the concrete. four of them tall enough to be 24" above your finished ridge. connect them at the top into a square/rectangle, same at landing height, then hang your beam for a beam hoist under the top, build your landing on the second wrap of steel and you`ll have a stout enough lift and platform to pull anything you want to put in the attic up on to. i`d build the stairs out of wood to save money but steel would last longer.....02 tod

[Art Mulder]

marty, for the stairs/porch/beam i`d go right back to the sono-tubes only this time instead of simpson ties set "i" beams into the concrete. four of them tall enough to be 24" above your finished ridge. connect them at the top into a square/rectangle, same at landing height, then hang your beam for a beam hoist under the top, build your landing on the second wrap of steel and you`ll have a stout enough lift and platform to pull anything you want to put in the attic up on to. i`d build the stairs out of wood to save money but steel would last longer.....02 tod

Tod, it sounds strong, but not particularly attractive. Marty - just how often are you going to need to move heavy stuff into this attic? If I were doing it daily, versus once or twice a season, that would affect just what kind of structure I'd look for.

For instance... if you only do this occaisionally, then what about putting a trapdoor in the floor of the attic, then have a tripod hoist that goes over the trapdoor for the occaisional lifting jobs. The rest of the time, just use the stairs.

[tod evans]

[quote=Art Mulder]Tod, it sounds strong, but not particularly attractive. quote]


art, wraping steel with wood is a fairly simple matter. the reason i even suggested a large stout structure in the first place was visualizing getting an 80 gallon compressor or units of hardwood upstairs with no point loading of the trusses.
marty, if you opt for the trap door approach talk to the truss engineer and ask specifically about point loading the trusses as you would using either a tripod set up or a ridge mounted lift point. at 40ft span i`d certainly check before stressing them...02 tod

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Looks real solid, Marty. I've enjoyed this thread thus far since I'm in the planning stages of my own detached shop that I will probably build myself. I think you said you're a "retired" computer consultant. I'm a techie too so let me tell you that even though your shop is a lot of hard, back-breaking work, it's gotta be better than sitting in a windowless cubicle ten hours a day. You're making great progress. Can't wait to see the first project that comes out of that shop.

BTW, how many other guys reading this have a SHOP the size of Marty's future finishing room? Green with envy.

[Marty Walsh]

Well, I agree with Art about the steel 'contraption' not looking all that attractive, and since that side of the shop faces the house/rear deck, looks need to be considered.

Something else Art brings up, that I need to keep in mind, is the frequency that I'd be hauling stuff up and down. Initially, I plan to have the HVAC air handler, large compressor, and cyclone, all mounted up there. Aside from these major hauls, the other items going up there won't be all that heavy. I can see jigs/fixtures, rarely used tools, etc., all going up there. Oh, and we can't forget Denise using it for xmas decorations and who-knows-what-else!!! :confused:

Tod, I discussed loads up there with the truss engineer and he told me I shouldn't exceed 'normal' residential loading. I'm assuming he means 40 lb/ft loads, which a unit or two of hardwood would certainly exceed!!! He did beef up the vertical members that will form the walls of the attic room. That was by my request, since I plan to hang the cyclone from that wall.

I need to rethink this whole idea. I still like the idea of the door on the gable end, but I'm not so sure I want (or need) a heavy duty lift on the side of the shop. I'll be thinking about it while I get back outside and hang more I-Joists...

Thanks for the ideas...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Looks real solid, Marty. I've enjoyed this thread thus far since I'm in the planning stages of my own detached shop that I will probably build myself. I think you said you're a "retired" computer consultant. I'm a techie too so let me tell you that even though your shop is a lot of hard, back-breaking work, it's gotta be better than sitting in a windowless cubicle ten hours a day. You're making great progress. Can't wait to see the first project that comes out of that shop.

BTW, how many other guys reading this have a SHOP the size of Marty's future finishing room? Green with envy.

Rob,

Glad you're enjoying my adventure...

I did say I'm a "retired" geek...but that's probably a misnomer. I basically got fed up with the politics and scheming of Corporate America and just packed up and walked (more like RAN) away from my office job.

I hope to NEVER EVER EVER have to sit in a cubicle again! I had some nice corner offices, since I was in management, but recent trends led to double and triple cubes for management. What a nightmare!

Oh, and I myself have lived with shops the size of my future finishing room, so I can certainly relate!

Back to hanging I-Joists...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Over Half way through the I-Joists...

Nothing earth-shattering to report. I was going to quit at 24, which was at the half way point, but I forced these TIRED old bones to put one more I-Joist in so I could be over half way with 25:

41049

Since it's the weekend, I'll have Denise's help for the next two days. I hope to be able to knock the I-Joists out and move on to the next phase, insulation followed by hardware cloth.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Don Baer]

Looking good Marty. I'm sure when you stand back and see your dream becoming a reality the ackes and pains seem to be tolerable. Thanks for sharing your adventure. I can only hope that when I build my new shop it goes as smoothly as yours.

[Jim O'Dell]

snip
Since it's the weekend, I'll have Denise's help for the next two days. I hope to be able to knock the I-Joists out and move on to the next phase, insulation followed by hardware cloth.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -
Marty, I must be missing something...I would have thought doing the hardware cloth first, then dropping the insulation in from the top would be easier. Don't have insulation falling in your face while you're on you back stapling the cloth in.
And the progress is great!! You're building a very strong foundation. Jim.

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, I must be missing something...I would have thought doing the hardware cloth first, then dropping the insulation in from the top would be easier. Don't have insulation falling in your face while you're on you back stapling the cloth in.
And the progress is great!! You're building a very strong foundation. Jim.

Jim,

That's the question of the day! Since we can't walk on the I-Joists until the Advantech goes on, the only way I see this going is..

1) Install temporary notched 2x4 braces from above to keep the I-Joists at the proper (16" o.c.) distance.

(The TJ Engineer spec'ed me NOT nailing the I-joists to the supporting beams in the centers, so they're "floppy" and not in the right place until the Advantech goes on.)

2) Install the insulation brackets (wires) on first bay by walking the I-Joist bays from the ground

3) Install the insulation on top of the insulation hangers on first bay

4) Repeat steps 1)-3) 46 more times...

(As I mentioned above, I don't want the insulation direclty on the hardware cloth, so it's at least a little difficult for critters to get their paws on it...)

4) Install the hardware cloth from below :(

If we're missing something, we'd love to know. I worked with insulation all day every day for several years and know all too well the "pleasure" :mad:

Thanks...
- Marty -

P.S. Thanks for the kind words. I'm trying....

[Marty Walsh]

Looking good Marty. I'm sure when you stand back and see your dream becoming a reality the ackes and pains seem to be tolerable. Thanks for sharing your adventure. I can only hope that when I build my new shop it goes as smoothly as yours.

Don,

I keep trying to convince myself that the tremendous sense of satisfaction that I'm feeling outweighs the aches and pains.

I'm almost there... ;)

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Vaughn McMillan]

Looking great Marty...I'm really enjoying the ride. I'm envious of your opportunity to build a dream shop; I'll use is as inspiration for my future.

- Vaughn

[Norman Hitt]

Something else Art brings up, that I need to keep in mind, is the frequency that I'd be hauling stuff up and down. Initially, I plan to have the HVAC air handler, large compressor, and cyclone, all mounted up there. Aside from these major hauls, the other items going up there won't be all that heavy.

I need to rethink this whole idea. I still like the idea of the door on the gable end, but I'm not so sure I want (or need) a heavy duty lift on the side of the shop. I'll be thinking about it while I get back outside and hang more I-Joists...

Thanks for the ideas...
- Marty -

Marty, seeing that you have a front end loader on your tractor, How high will it reach? If it would be high enough, you could set those "Heavy items" mentioned above into the loft's Gable end door, OR you might consider renting/hiring a forklift for a one shot deal, and setting all those heavy items up there in one short session, and maybe not really need to build a heavy lift, or at least not for the present.

Just another thought;

If a forklift isn't readily available, you might make a deal with one of the roofing contractors to use one of their "Lift Bed Trucks" that they use to put loads of shingles up on the roofs with, (at least most of them have those trucks around here), and they would have the weight lifting capacity to lift all of the items you mentioned.

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, seeing that you have a front end loader on your tractor, How high will it reach? If it would be high enough, you could set those "Heavy items" mentioned above into the loft's Gable end door, OR you might consider renting/hiring a forklift for a one shot deal, and setting all those heavy items up there in one short session, and maybe not really need to build a heavy lift, or at least not for the present.

Just another thought;

If a forklift isn't readily available, you might make a deal with one of the roofing contractors to use one of their "Lift Bed Trucks" that they use to put loads of shingles up on the roofs with, (at least most of them have those trucks around here), and they would have the weight lifting capacity to lift all of the items you mentioned.

Norman,

That tractor with the loader isn't ours (unfortunately). Not to mention, the loader wouldn't be able to lift anywhere near high enough to get up there.

But if all I need is one time lifting, to get the initial equipment up there, I can get my hands on an excavator (or some other large piece of equipment) to get up that high.

I"m still debating the lift idea. It sure would be convenient to be able to get anything up and down without breaking my back. I'm just not sure how often I'd need it...to justify the cost and effort of building it.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, if you only intend to lift a few heavy/bulky items up to the attic most lumberyards have what they call a "mule", it`s a portable, rough terain forklift that plugs into the back end of a semi. i`m certain that your supplier would agree to provide lifting services free of charge for a one time session considering the amount of material you`re buying from him. just get a handshake on it before you write the sheetgoods check:) .
even if you don`t opt for an overhead hoist type of set-up steel would be my first choice for outboard deck support, mounted in a sonotube and covered with your choice of wood. tod

[Rob Russell]

Unless you're installing it from above...no staples...as the kraft paper needs to be on the floor side. The wire hangers are generally enough to hold it up, although I suggest you also string wire/cable/chicken-wire/strapping/whatever to insure nothing drops out over time since it's not an enclosed space like a crawl space. Chicken wire would also help keep out the larger critters from below.

Putting the vapor barrier on the living space side makes sense to me for a heated space, but I think the vapor barrier goes on the outside for a cooled space.

My understanding of the purpose of the vapor barrier is to keep moisture from condensing in the insulation. For a heated space, you want to keep the warmer, moister air from travelling into the insulation so the vapor barrier goes on the "inside". I'd think in Georgia, where you're mostly going to be cooling, you'd want to keep that nice warm, moist Georgia air from condensing in the insulation. That means putting the vapor barrier on the outside - which would mean on the bottom or away from the floor.

Am I missing something here?

Rob

[Marty Walsh]

marty, if you only intend to lift a few heavy/bulky items up to the attic most lumberyards have what they call a "mule", it`s a portable, rough terain forklift that plugs into the back end of a semi. i`m certain that your supplier would agree to provide lifting services free of charge for a one time session considering the amount of material you`re buying from him. just get a handshake on it before you write the sheetgoods check:) .
even if you don`t opt for an overhead hoist type of set-up steel would be my first choice for outboard deck support, mounted in a sonotube and covered with your choice of wood. tod

Tod,

They call it a 'pig truck' here, since the forklift rides 'piggy back' on the truck. That's what they used to deliver my TJ stuff. And it should be back here Monday morning with my Advantech.

You make a very valid point though. I'm sure they'd be willing to run it out here for me for a one shot hoist if I get everything lined up. Heck, even if I had to pay a nominal fee, I might resort to that in the future.

I'm still thinking about the hoist though...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, the way i would approach insulating your floor is to first screw down walkboards on the tgi`s, then apply tyvek to the underside of the tgi`s. from this point i`d get on top and stuff unfaced bats into the cavities, wires if you want, i don`t think they`ll help or hurt. screen wire if you want? i don`t really think it would be necessarry with tyvek and the lattice enclosed perimeter. just how i`d go about things.....i hate insulation in the face and tyvek is holding up well since it was first introduced.....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

Putting the vapor barrier on the living space side makes sense to me for a heated space, but I think the vapor barrier goes on the outside for a cooled space.

My understanding of the purpose of the vapor barrier is to keep moisture from condensing in the insulation. For a heated space, you want to keep the warmer, moister air from travelling into the insulation so the vapor barrier goes on the "inside". I'd think in Georgia, where you're mostly going to be cooling, you'd want to keep that nice warm, moist Georgia air from condensing in the insulation. That means putting the vapor barrier on the outside - which would mean on the bottom or away from the floor.

Am I missing something here?

Rob

Rob,

I originally spec'ed unfaced, but my supplier sent me kraft since they don't stock unfaced. I'm toying with the idea of ripping the kraft paper off completely to keep it from getting wet and holding moisture until I get the roof up. (See a few posts ago where this was discussed.)

Are you thinking that's not a good idea???
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, the way i would approach insulating your floor is to first screw down walkboards on the tgi`s, then apply tyvek to the underside of the tgi`s. from this point i`d get on top and stuff unfaced bats into the cavities, wires if you want, i don`t think they`ll help or hurt. screen wire if you want? i don`t really think it would be necessarry with tyvek and the lattice enclosed perimeter. just how i`d go about things.....i hate insulation in the face and tyvek is holding up well since it was first introduced.....02 tod

Tod,

I'm going with galvanized hardware cloth for two reasons. 1) I doubt Tyvek would keep the critters at bay, and 2) I already have the hardware cloth!:rolleyes:

Seriously though, the approach I outlined above will be a royal (and itchy) pain, if I have to staple the hardware cloth AFTER the insulation is in. Your idea of walking boards might be something to look into. I'll already have the notched 2x4's up there holding the I-Joists in place.

I'm just very leary about walking on the I-Joists until they're secured to the Advantech. There are warning labels on the I-Joist wrappers, as well as in the install pamphlet, as well as in the product doc, showing a guy falling on his butt from walking on unsecured joists. These things are really floppy! :confused:

I need to decide how to do this soon, since I'm hoping to get the remainder of the I-Joists in today.

Thanks for your input...
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, tyvek and hardware cloth is an option too....a semi-permiable vapor barrier in the correct place plus no insulation in the face...02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, tyvek and hardware cloth is an option too....a semi-permiable vapor barrier in the correct place plus no insulation in the face...02 tod

Tod,

Ohhhh, so you're saying Tyvek under the I-Joists first, followed by the hardware cloth. Now THAT makes sense. But does it make enough sense to justify the cost of a few rolls of Tyvek? That stuff ain't cheap! :(

If it adds to the structure, and not just for making installing the insulation easier, I might be willing to spend the extra money.

Thoughts...?
- Marty -

[tod evans]

marty, tyvek not the generics is really a good product, it`ll keep the air from infiltrating the cavities but allow moisture to pass. being as the structure is open underneath it`s likely it could provide some protection against heat/cooling loss through convection. it wouldn`t hurt to call dupont and ask.....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

marty, tyvek not the generics is really a good product, it`ll keep the air from infiltrating the cavities but allow moisture to pass. being as the structure is open underneath it`s likely it could provide some protection against heat/cooling loss through convection. it wouldn`t hurt to call dupont and ask.....02 tod

Tod,

Timing is against me for calling Dupont, since I'm looking to get the hardware cloth on this weekend. And I'd have to special order the 'real' Tyvek, since everyone around here carries their own 'store' brand.

But I like your idea...decisions... :confused:
- Marty -

[tod evans]

scooter ride and coctails may be in order waiting on duponts tech line:)

[Marty Walsh]

scooter ride and coctails may be in order waiting on duponts tech line:)

Well Tod,

On that note, I'm off to hang more I-Joists. Thanks again for your input...and have a great day!

- Marty -

[Jim O'Dell]

Tod,

Ohhhh, so you're saying Tyvek under the I-Joists first, followed by the hardware cloth. Now THAT makes sense. But does it make enough sense to justify the cost of a few rolls of Tyvek? That stuff ain't cheap! :(

If it adds to the structure, and not just for making installing the insulation easier, I might be willing to spend the extra money.

Thoughts...?
- Marty -
By adding to the structure, do you mean structural integrety, or long term value to the structure? I'd say no to my first question, and yes to the second.

And I missed it earlier if you said you were trying to keep a spacing between the insulation and the hardware cloth. My bad. Definately if you chose to do the Tyvek before the hardware cloth, as long as the Tyvek was between you and the insulation, any little portion that dropped would get caught by the Tyvek before it got to you. Depends if it is worth the cost to keep it out of your face. :D I know Tyvek says not to have the material in direct sunlight for over 30 days, or it will deteriorate. Underneath the structure would be out of direct sunlight, but I wonder if it would deteriorate over time being exposed to the elements? Normal use has it between the insulation and the cladding on a house, so that it is mostly protected. When I did the outside of my shop rehab, I think the Tyvek was about 115.00 for a 10' by 150' roll. Sounds like you would need 2 rolls for underneath, and, how many for the exterior????
I look forward to your update this evening. Jim.

[Rob Russell]

Rob,

I originally spec'ed unfaced, but my supplier sent me kraft since they don't stock unfaced. I'm toying with the idea of ripping the kraft paper off completely to keep it from getting wet and holding moisture until I get the roof up. (See a few posts ago where this was discussed.)

Are you thinking that's not a good idea???
- Marty -

Marty,

I don't think ripping the vapor barrier off of the insulation is a good idea. I also don't think Tyvec on the bottom is a good idea either if Tyvec's purpose is to be a wind block but let moisture through.

I'd check with the local insulation pros, but I'd think that you want a vapor barrier between the hot, moist Georgia air and your insulation. If you don't have that, when the moist air hits the underneath of your cool floor, it'll condense and drip into the insulation and I don't think that's what you want. That means having a vapor barrier underneath the insulation.

You could achieve that by putting the insulation in with the kraft paper on the bottom and stapling it to the bottoms of the joists, then put hardware cloth over it. The only problem with that is the critters will be able to reach the paper. Another way is to staple the insulation in place an inch or 2 up from the bottom of the joists - they look deep enough to do that. If you really wanted to prevent moisture coming up from beneath, put a layer of 6 mil plastic across the bottom of the joists before you put up the hardware cloth.

Just my perspective.

Rob

[tod evans]

rob, tyvek is actually perfectly suited for martys application. it is a semipermiable membrane in one direction only, when installed correctly it will keep water and air out of the insulation and let whatever condensation forms evaporate. the generic housewraps most supply houses sell do not perform in this manor. here`s a link to explore;
http://www.tyvek.com/whatistyvek.htm

only marty can decide if the wind/water/insulation barrier is worth the bucks? personally in humid sweltering georgia i would opt out of tar covered craftpaper for a vapor barrier in a floor but that`s just me...02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

ZERO I-Joists to go!!

Well, another back breaking day, but something good to show for it:

41104

That's tired old me standing on the LAST I-JOIST soon after we got it installed!

Boy, Sketchup made this look WAY easier than it was:

41107 41105

But once again, I'm really enjoying seeing my Sketchup model come to life!

To give you all an idea of scale, those are 10' 2x4's laying on the I-Joists...
41106

I'm going to shower and have a cocktail to celebrate my victory over those I-Joists. I'll be back a little later to digest all the information and ideas about the insulation. Please don't stop discussing...I need the ideas...

(BTW, I tried checking with local contractors/insulation folks. They had NO CLUE since they "...never bother insulating a floor over a crawl space. So what if it costs more for HVAC." Not what I wanted to hear!!! :eek:

Thanks for watching...be back soon...
- Marty -

[Don Baer]

Martey,
I am so impressed with your rate of progress. keep the updates coming. can't waite to see it when it's all together.

[Jim Becker]

Yalza! Great job, Marty!!!

[tod evans]

looks flat!:) way to go marty!

[Marty Walsh]

looks flat!:) way to go marty!

Hey Tod,

With all I went through, if it didn't look flat, I'd be taking some C4 out there and making it flat for sure!

Cocktail time...
- Marty -

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marty........You're making great progress and doing a very fine job! Great work!

[Michael Gabbay]

Marty - Looks GREAT!!!

My neighbor just finished a sun room on piers like your shop. He insulated the floor with regular fiberglass insulation. I see if he used backed or unbacked. Also, try calling Owens Corning. They've been very helpful in the past for me.

Mike

[Marty Walsh]

Don/Jim/Tod,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not disappointed with my progress, although the weather is dealing me a blow. It's sprinkled a few times already today, and the forecast calls for thunder storms/showers all week.

Given that I'm preparing to deal with the insulation, that's not good for me...or my progress. :mad:

Perhaps it's happening for a reason. That reason is to give me time to research the whole vapor barrier/air barrier/Tyvek issue. I'd really like to do this 'as right as possible' the first time.

Thanks again for following. I'm sure I'll have questions as my research progresses...
- Marty -

[Corey Hallagan]

Looking good Mary! Won't be long now and that frame will be going up!

Corey

[Marty Walsh]

Marty - Looks GREAT!!!

My neighbor just finished a sun room on piers like your shop. He insulated the floor with regular fiberglass insulation. I see if he used backed or unbacked. Also, try calling Owens Corning. They've been very helpful in the past for me.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

I'd be interested to hear what your neighbor did about insulating the floor of his sunroom.

I'd be interested to know:

1) Is the room heated/cooled?
2) Did he use faced or unfaced insulation?
3) If faced, what was the facing, and did he install it towards to room?
4) Did he use hangers or just 'stuff' it between the joists?

I suspect the major difference in the weather between here and NoVA would play a part in the answers to the above, but I'm interested none-the-less if you can find out.

I'm also seriously thinking about giving both Owens and Dupont a call tomorrow...hopefully they're interested in more than just selling me product...

Thanks again...
- Marty -

[Andy Hoyt]

Marty - Have you considered that running any electrical cables, plumbing lines, or DC ducting below the floor will be seriously hampered by the prior installation of the insulation?

[Marty Walsh]

Looking good Mary! Won't be long now and that frame will be going up!

Corey

Sheesh, is there a virus going around related to malfunctioning "t" keys on peoples keyboards? :( :rolleyes:

Seriously, thanks Corey. I was hoping to get to the decking tomorrow when the Advantech gets delivered, but the weather has me thinking about postponing that. I was supposed to be doing the insulation today, but working with that stuff in the rain probably isn't the most prudent thing I'd have done.

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty - Have you considered that running any electrical cables, plumbing lines, or DC ducting below the floor will be seriously hampered by the prior installation of the insulation?

Andy,

I've thought this through over and over, and have decided that I won't be running ducting below the floor. I'm still a little on the fence about electric, since having a few floor mounted 240V circuits would probably be handy. But I suspect I'll forego that as well.

Oh, and the plumbing is going to be pretty straight-forward. I'll have water supply lines and drain lines coming straight down from the bathroom and angling back towards the rear of the shop and the septic. I will have to cut through the hardware cloth to get the pipes in and out, but I should be able to patch and seal that pretty well.

Thanks for the sanity check though...
- Marty -

[Douglas Robinson]

It is just me, or do even the pictures seem to be sweating? I feel for you. Its not just the heat its the humidity? If you were nearby I would offer to help. That is one BIG project for just you and SWMBO!! Good luck and thanks for posting.

With a little envy,

Doug

[Jim Andrew]

Marty, forgive me for my ignorance of southern building practices, but do
you intend to sheet the underside of the floor system with plywood? The
pier system being open underneath looks like you would have to protect the underside of the building from varmints and such. Or is this a concern? Jim

[Tony Baker]

Andy,

I've thought this through over and over, and have decided that I won't be running ducting below the floor. I'm still a little on the fence about electric, since having a few floor mounted 240V circuits would probably be handy. But I suspect I'll forego that as well.
- Marty -

Marty - My shop is roughly 44x24 and on a slab w/ no outlets in the floor. It is crappy to have cords running out to my table saw on the floor.

If I were you and I was building with wood from scratch (easy access) I would put floor mounted outlets all over the freaking place. Seriously - a shop that size is going to be hampered by having extension cords all over the floor or drops from the ceiling. Putting in a few floor boxes and/or conduit stub ups would be easy and really worth it IMHO.

Lookin good - very fast progress. I wish I could quit my day job - I'd have my remodel done licky quick (but no funds for appliances or cabinets!)

Good luck!

[Marty Walsh]

It is just me, or do even the pictures seem to be sweating? I feel for you. Its not just the heat its the humidity? If you were nearby I would offer to help. That is one BIG project for just you and SWMBO!! Good luck and thanks for posting.

With a little envy,

Doug

Doug,

Thanks for the offer. And you're right. It's gotten better lately, but it sure has been HOT out there. One day last week the 'heat index' hit a record of 123 degrees! That drains the life out of me after a day of hard work. I don't know how the construction folks down here can do that day in and day out!!!

Oh, and I don't have a "SWMBO", I have a LOML. There's a HUGE difference! :p I'm lucky to have, and am appreciative of, her help on the weekends. It really is nice to have a LOML that can man my Paslode as I'm installing joist hangers...:rolleyes:

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty, forgive me for my ignorance of southern building practices, but do
you intend to sheet the underside of the floor system with plywood? The
pier system being open underneath looks like you would have to protect the underside of the building from varmints and such. Or is this a concern? Jim

Jim,

I'm at the decision phase of the underneath of the decking right now. If you read back a bit, you'll see that the current plan is to 'insulate' somehow, and then cover the underneath with 1/4" mesh galvanized hardware cloth stapled along every joist to keep the critters at bay.

The decisions I'm facing now are all related to which way to have the insulation facing point, (if facing at all), and whether or not to cover the bottom of the insulation with Tyvek.

Keep reading as these decisions are made and I begin the next phase...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty - My shop is roughly 44x24 and on a slab w/ no outlets in the floor. It is crappy to have cords running out to my table saw on the floor.

If I were you and I was building with wood from scratch (easy access) I would put floor mounted outlets all over the freaking place. Seriously - a shop that size is going to be hampered by having extension cords all over the floor or drops from the ceiling. Putting in a few floor boxes and/or conduit stub ups would be easy and really worth it IMHO.

Lookin good - very fast progress. I wish I could quit my day job - I'd have my remodel done licky quick (but no funds for appliances or cabinets!)

Good luck!

Tony,

As I stated earlier, I was on the fence about 'stuff' in the floor. I did some research and totally nixed the idea of ducting down there. I'm just about ready to nix the idea of outlets down there too. But I do realize the benefit of them being in the floor.

Even if I change my mind and decide to put in outlets, it won't be ALL that much work. Since I have relatively easy access, (the lowest pier is still about 16" off the ground), all I'd have to do is peel back the hardware cloth, drop the insulation, and do my wiring. It would certainly be easier now, but without knowing the layout of the shop, I'd be shooting in the dark as far as placement.

Thanks for the ideas...
- Marty -

[Corey Hallagan]

Sorry MarTy :) Proofreading isn't my forte! Looks like you made great progress today.

Corey

[tod evans]

marty, my last shop had wood floors and i too thought electric in the floor would be slick.....surface mounting boxes in a woodshop is something i`ll never do again! when you sweep up nails or drillpress curls you`ll occasionally get a real cool fireworks show:eek: ,then if you actually want to plug something into a floor mounted receptical you`ll need to blow out the accumulated sawdust (what happens when you blow compressed air into a sawdust filled box?) now here`s the best one for floor mounted recepticals; you`re wheeling along a cart to the finish room with a completed highboy and one wheel crushes the metal cover and starts arcing, you`re in the shop alone trying to balance this 100hr+ piece so it doesn`t crash hoping that the circuitbreaker pops before you need to grab the cart and muscle it out of the box...... never again! i really like a solid floor in a shop.......02 tod

[Rob Russell]

Perhaps it's happening for a reason ... is to give me time to research the whole vapor barrier/air barrier/Tyvek issue.

Marty,

If you end up calling Owens Corning or one of the other manufacturers - I'll be very interested to see what they have to say!

Rob

[Marty Walsh]

marty, my last shop had wood floors and i too thought electric in the floor would be slick.....surface mounting boxes in a woodshop is something i`ll never do again! when you sweep up nails or drillpress curls you`ll occasionally get a real cool fireworks show:eek: ,then if you actually want to plug something into a floor mounted receptical you`ll need to blow out the accumulated sawdust (what happens when you blow compressed air into a sawdust filled box?) now here`s the best one for floor mounted recepticals; you`re wheeling along a cart to the finish room with a completed highboy and one wheel crushes the metal cover and starts arcing, you`re in the shop alone trying to balance this 100hr+ piece so it doesn`t crash hoping that the circuitbreaker pops before you need to grab the cart and muscle it out of the box...... never again! i really like a solid floor in a shop.......02 tod

Tod,

You've hit on one of the MAJOR reasons I'm leaning against having anything in the floor. I can envision both of your scenarios happening!

I can also see potential issues with ceiling drops and cords, but I think they pose less of a real problem than boxes in the floor.

Thanks for the input...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

If you end up calling Owens Corning or one of the other manufacturers - I'll be very interested to see what they have to say!

Rob

Rob,

I'm on hold right now with Dupont, and plan to call Owens next. I'll be SURE to post an update with their collective opinions when I'm done.

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Well, what an 'interesting' conversation I just had with Dupont, and one of their local 'field specialists'.

Unforuntately, I ran into one of the major reasons I left Corporate America...lawyers and product liability!

The bottom line is that Tyvek is (in their words) "100% uniquely suited" for the application I have in mind.

HOWEVER, (here comes the lawyer inspired liability avoidance verbiage)

1) "Tyvek is NOT certified for any application other than an integral component of a vertical wall system"

Since I'm looking to use it as part of a flooring system, they would NOT say it would work. They said it "sounds" like a perfect application of their product. They listed all of the benefits the product would provide me, but since it's not certified for use in flooring systems, they can't recommend my use of it.

2) "We have no test data to certify that Tyvek can exist in contact with a galvanized metal product other than brick ties".

And since I plan to keep critters under control with the galvanized hardware cloth, they adamantly refused to comment. They went on to say that they have "no test data" where critters ever infiltrated Tyvek. I was even given a brief history on the chemical and mechanical composition of Tyvek, and why no critters would want to eat it. But they also couldn't insure that critters couldn't find a taped seam and work their way up to the insulation. They said that the hardware cloth was a fantastic idea, but since they lacked test data, they refused to comment.


Boy, chalk up another one for the litigous nature of our society. Both of the folks were extremely friendly and very helpful...within the confines of their corporate cultures. I suspect if I had the same conversations with these folks that weren't prefaced by the ubiquitous "your call may be recorded", I might have gotten a resounding "GO FOR IT". At least that's my gut feeling from the past 30+ minutes on the phone.

Sheesh....decsions decisions...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Ok, conversations have taken place, and decisions have been made. Here's where I stand and what I plan to do moving forward:

1) Two rolls of Tyvek are being put on the truck this afternoon that will also bring my 7/8" Advantech sheathing.

In spite of the reluctance of Dupont to commit to the feasability of Tyvek in this application, my gut tells me that the added benefits it will provide, keeping moisture from moving up into the insulation, and allowing any condensation under the sheathing to breathe out, are worth the risk of using their product in an 'uncertified' manner.

2) I'm going to use the kraft faced paper with the facing pointing towards the ground.

Conversations I had this morning with Owens and with a local builder were just as confusing and non-commital as my conversation with Dupont was.

The local builder echoed my suppliers comments "why are you bothering to insulate the floor?". (Because I have to live with this structure and pay the HVAC bills!!)

But at least Owens helped me decide about the facing. Well, sort of..

They echoed what's stated here: http://www.owenscorning.com/around/insulation/project/floors_tip.html

Even though common practices here are to not use facing some times, we're considered "gulf' states, and the rules for facing are reversed since we spend more time trying to cool than heat.

What concerned me is that last statement on the link above about the facing being flammable and needing to be in contact with the floor/wall/etc. I'm not sure there's anything I can or need to do about that...

So, here are the steps I plan to follow in the next few days:

1) Install the Advantech
2) Install the insulation, kraft facing down, supported in contact with the Advantech by 'tiger claw' wire hangers. (Owens made a point of letting me know that's what they're called)
3) Install (staple) the Tyvek perpendicular to the I-Joists, overlapping each row at least a few inches and taping the overlap.
4) Install (staple) the hardware cloth parallel to the I-Joists

Sorry for the lengthy updates recently, but I thought I'd share some of the decisions I'm having to make, and the information I'm using to make those decisions.

Hopefully my next updates will show the results of the above decisions...

Oh, and thanks Tod and Rob and everyone else that made me think more about this insulation issue.

- Marty -

P.S. Tod, I'm getting GENUINE Tyvek, not the house brand...$20 more a roll...

[Art Mulder]

marty, my last shop had wood floors and i too thought electric in the floor would be slick.....surface mounting boxes in a woodshop is something i`ll never do again! ...

What about a recessed mounting? I just had this idea... Marty has a fair bit of space under the floor, what if he put in a box in the floor, like 12"x12"x6" deep, and set electric lines into the side of that box. Then cover it with a lid, with a hole, or corner cut out, to feed cords through. Seems like this would help alleviate a lot of the issues with dust falling down.

Our church has things like this up front for power and mic locations on the stage. They have recessed boxes, with the power+audio jacks in the sides, and the lids have all four corners cut off, so that they can feed the cables through.

(Note that i still wouldn't just put these in random locations. I'd first lay out the shop and decide on what tools were pretty much going to stay there - TS, Planer, etc. Marty did say that with his under-floor clearance, he should be able to make these changes in future without TOO much grief.)

[tod evans]

What about a recessed mounting? I just had this idea... Marty has a fair bit of space under the floor, what if he put in a box in the floor, like 12"x12"x6" deep, and set electric lines into the side of that box. Then cover it with a lid, with a hole, or corner cut out, to feed cords through. Seems like this would help alleviate a lot of the issues with dust falling down.

Our church has things like this up front for power and mic locations on the stage. They have recessed boxes, with the power+audio jacks in the sides, and the lids have all four corners cut off, so that they can feed the cables through.

(Note that i still wouldn't just put these in random locations. I'd first lay out the shop and decide on what tools were pretty much going to stay there - TS, Planer, etc. Marty did say that with his under-floor clearance, he should be able to make these changes in future without TOO much grief.)

art, i see no reason this wouldn`t work. if i was to wire through the floor again for some reason i`d mount a junction box to the floor joist and drill a hole in the floor and run so cord from the box to the machine and hardwire it. then if i decided to move equipment i`d only have a small hole to deal with. but everybody does things differently....02 tod

[Marty Walsh]

art, i see no reason this wouldn`t work. if i was to wire through the floor again for some reason i`d mount a junction box to the floor joist and drill a hole in the floor and run so cord from the box to the machine and hardwire it. then if i decided to move equipment i`d only have a small hole to deal with. but everybody does things differently....02 tod

Well, for now I'm going to forego under-the-floor anything. If/when I decide to change my mind, you all can give me a resounding "TOLD YA SO"!! :rolleyes:

I'm off to get some Advantech installed.
- Marty -

[tod evans]

7/8 advantech= 80# each, gotta be gentle so as not to bugger up the tongue or groove.....construction adhesive on top of tgi`s is like grease on a doorknob........no help....95 degrees. i don`t envy you marty! stay hydrated....tod

[Art Mulder]

WIf/when I decide to change my mind, you all can give me a resounding "TOLD YA SO"!! :rolleyes:

Hah. Marty, my shop is in the basement of my house. It is a enourmous 11x18ish size. (note the new definition of "enourmous")

I'm not saying "told ya so" to anyone. I'm just another set of eyeballs and brain cells, looking on and trying to offer ideas.

[Jerry White]

Well, for now I'm going to forego under-the-floor anything. If/when I decide to change my mind, you all can give me a resounding "TOLD YA SO"!! :rolleyes: -

Marty, ONE of the great things about pier and beam construction is that you have the ability to more readily add such modifications as floor plugs after your building is complete. Should you decide you want them, you will then have a better idea of where you want them.

Again, I really like your logic and planning on this project. I have to admit, though, that it makes me tired just reading about all your hard work. Looking GOOD!

Jerry

[Marty Walsh]

7/8 advantech= 80# each, gotta be gentle so as not to bugger up the tongue or groove.....construction adhesive on top of tgi`s is like grease on a doorknob........no help....95 degrees. i don`t envy you marty! stay hydrated....tod

Tod,

Are you SURE they're ONLY 80# each? I think they might have sent me wet sheets, since they feel like they're about 120# each!!!

I'm facing a new challenge/problem today. It's SO HOT that the glue holding the nails together in strips for my Paslode is melting, seperating them from the paper and causing the gun to jam every 5-6 nails. Like I needed this? :mad:

I'm tempted to put the nails in the cooler of water I keep out there... :(

Sheesh...
- Marty -