Cyclone.. Which one? ClearVue won

[Ed Lang]

At the end of this thread I will post that I have put a ClearVue on order.





I have read till I am about to explode!

What I would like to hear is from REAL experiences with the Grizzly, Onida and Clear Vue owners. If you have another one and would like to chime in, please do. I am ready to buy, just not sure what one is the "best". It seems to me that the bottom line it how clean the output filters stay will say a lot about how good the cyclone design is. The largest machine that will be connected is the 20" Grizzly planer. Also connected will be the Grizzly 19" BS, 10" TS, Drum Sander and hose over at the lathe. I will also install a floor sweep.

I will be running new ductwork so now is the time to move from my 4" to ??

Cyclone will be mounted in the corner of a 28'X42' shop. Most of the machines will be in the front half of this space. Only scroll saws are in the rear.

I am leaning towards the 5HP Clear Vue at this time.

[Jim Becker]

I have owned two Oneida units and have been extremely pleased with the product and company. The 1.5hp component system was fine when my shop was tiny and the 2hp commercial that I now run (similar to the 2hp Gorilla) is extraordinarily good at what it does for my larger shop with larger tools. Made-in-USA with a made-in-USA motor...a rare opportunity these days...an these folks only do dust collection.

All of the units you are considering should be equally suitable for your application. Choose based on your comfort with the vendors/manufacturers and in the case of the ClearVue, your time to put it all together.

Your duct work will generally increase to a much larger size; at least 6" on your mains, for example. In the case of the 2hp Onieda, your initial main run will be 7".

[Mike Weaver]

...snip good stuff...

All of the units you are considering should be equally suitable for your application. Choose based on your comfort with the vendors/manufacturers and in the case of the ClearVue, your time to put it all together.

...snip good stuff...

Jim,
This may be a bit of a thread hijack, but...

How much extra time do you think a ClearVue would take? - from looking at the pages, it looks ready to go. I think the only extra time would be in making a filter stack?


In any case, I can't disagree with anything you've said and, as always, you have given sound advice.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Jim Becker]

How much extra time do you think a ClearVue would take? - from looking at the pages, it looks ready to go. I think the only extra time would be in making a filter stack?

I think that someone who is building or has built one is best to answer that question. My statement revolved around the fact that the buyer needs to source and/or build stuff that comes with the Grizzly and Oneida systems "in the box". That conceivable takes more time...and is only what I was suggesting. And it's a valid choice that can give a lot of satisfaction!

I also don't think the question is outside of the thread subject, either...it's an important consideration in Ed's choice.

[Don Frambach]

I have the Oneida 1.5 hp unit in my garage shop. It is made very well and works as advertised. If I had it to do over again, I would have purchased the 2 hp version because 1.5 hp is not quite enough to collect from beneath the table saw as well as from my overblade Excalibur guard. I also have the internal filter model which is a little difficult to service. I am currently working out a conversion to the external filter model.

[Ed Lang]

My concerns are the lack of power with the 2HP units. That is why the 5HP looks good to me.

The big thing I am wanting to find out is how much dust gets to the output filters on each system? I think I understand the object of getting the dust in the can, not the filter. My thinking is then if little is getting cleaned from real world use, then the cyclone design must be good. If you have to clean the output filter, then the cyclone design must not be as good as it could be.

I want to get this purchase right the first time as I am going to start asking questions in the laser woodworking forums and I will not have the money to buy another cyclone after that forum finishes with me :)

Getting all of the parts shipped from one source and having everything fit is important to me. I don't want to order from several sources, run all over the country to find this and that and have to cobble up stuff to get it to work.

[Jim Becker]

My concerns are the lack of power with the 2HP units. That is why the 5HP looks good to me.

This is interesting...my 2hp Leeson powered unit presents a danger to small animals anywhere near my shop...it moves a LOT of air. Your concern really needs to be about what airflow you need to accomodate your machines, not the horsepower of the motor. Impeller size is more important, within reason, and as long as your motor is sized to be able to swing the impeller to it's full capacity, you'll be happy. "Real horsepower" is also something to look for, not marketing numbers, the same as "real CFM" is what you want, not free-air claims that some purveyors of dust collection systems provide. There are a lot of so-called 5hp motors that are really only 3hp in normal operation. Etc.

What is the CFM requirement to service your shop? Once you have that, you can use that to help decide on a cyclone setup as well as the required duct work to support the air flow needs. You really have to work back from the tools to get there...

[Mike Weaver]

...Your concern really needs to be about what airflow you need to accomodate your machines, not the horsepower of the motor. Impeller size is more important, within reason, and as long as your motor is sized to be able to swing the impeller to it's full capacity, you'll be happy. "Real horsepower" is also something to look for, not marketing numbers, the same as "real CFM" is what you want, not free-air claims that some purveyors of dust collection systems provide. There are a lot of so-called 5hp motors that are really only 3hp in normal operation. Etc.

What is the CFM requirement to service your shop? Once you have that, you can use that to help decide on a cyclone setup as well as the required duct work to support the air flow needs. You really have to work back from the tools to get there...

Jim hit the nail on the head -
Ed, you should figure based upon CFM, not motor HP.

I'm doing the "cobbling up" myself with a Pentz cyclone, so perhaps my following comments/views should be taken wth a grain of salt...:confused:

For a "safe" bet, Oneida has been a standard to which others have tried to catch in the past. I think they are still top notch. They have a design service that can engineer a fine solution for you,

I suspect that the ClearVue will easly do what you need, but without having the CFM requirements and what the ducting will look like, it's hard to definitively say so...

Jim correctly pointed out earlier that the Clear Vue will take some more time, but I don't think I'd put it in the "cobbling up" category since the unit is basically ready to go (minus a straightforward filter stack).

It will require you to order from different sources though since you'll need filters like those from Wynn Environmental.

Anyway - it all starts wth CFM requirements, in my opinion.
Cheers and Good luck,
-Mike

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi guys! While I can't tell you about performance yet, I can tell you a little about installing the Clear Vue. I took some extra steps that are probably not needed. I put 2 coats of clear poly on all the MDF parts. Everything is in the kit, including motor and impeller. The only thing you have to supply now is the filters, the lumber to make the "shelf" for the mount to mount to, and the trash can for the dust and ships. I also went a little overboard in sealing up things, a lot more than was needed, but that is just me. then I built a "tree" to mount this to, instead of bolting the 2X4 bracing to the wall and mounting the unit. I did this for noise control, even though I don't know how noisey it is yet ;-). I would say if you had a couple 2X4's, a trash can, and ordered the filters when you ordered the Clear Vue, it could easily be done in a day, less if you have some help lifting parts into place. If you would like some more detailed info on what I did, see: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14427&page=4
With that said, this is a great time to be in the market for a cyclone. There are several really good options. I purchased the Clear Vue because it fit my needs and desires. Part of my decission was the price I got it at, at that time it was less than the Grizzly, and the Gorilla hadn't been announced yet.
Let us know what you decide! JIM

edit: The Leeson 5 hp is compressor duty rated. I understand it is acutally more like a 3 hp for real world comparrisons. Jim

[Andy London]

[QUOTE=Ed Lang]My concerns are the lack of power with the 2HP units. That is why the 5HP looks good to me.

QUOTE]

Keep in mind that is a compressor motor which comes in around 3 h.p. I believe.

I have the 2 h.p. Gorilla, longest run is around 34 feet, running a 7" main with 6" branches, commercial home shop. generally two gates open as my son generally works with me on his own projects/customer orders, shop is around 960 sq feet and has over 14 tools attached to it. I can't imagine needing more CSF than what I am experiencing and am very pleased with the setup.

Andy

[John Bush]

Hi All,

I have a similar setup as Andy-- main shop is 960sqft(2nd floor 600sqft), 11 machines and 2 floor sweeps hooked to a 2hp Grizz. Mine is in an attached shed so noise levels are not a problem and performance is excellent. Mostly have been sanding on both belt and drum sanders and there is virtually no fine particulate dust in the filter bag. I agree with Jim and others in that any of the units you mentioned would be an appropriate choice. I think a 2hp is plenty of performance and selecting a vendor close by is the logical choice. I drove to the warehouse to pick up the Grizz and this gave me the excuse to buy two other machines. Good luck, John.

[John Bush]

Hi All,

I have a similar setup as Andy-- main shop is 960sqft(2nd floor 600sqft), 11 machines and 2 floor sweeps hooked to a 2hp Grizz. Mine is in an attached shed so noise levels are not a problem and performance is excellent. Mostly have been sanding on both belt and drum sanders and there is virtually no fine particulate dust in the filter bag. I agree with Jim and others in that any of the units you mentioned would be an appropriate choice. I think a 2hp is plenty of performance and selecting a vendor close by is the logical choice. I drove to the warehouse to pick up the Grizz and this gave me the excuse to buy two other machines. Good luck, John.

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi again. I'm home for lunch and got to thinking of a few itiems that may sway you, one way or another. On the Clear Vue, the cyclone body is assembled, the blower housing is assembled, but you have to put the 2 together. The exhaust to the filter transition has to be assembled (2 pieces of pre-formed PTEG, and 3 pre-machined MDF pieces that fit together in a few seconds, then gets mounted to the blower housing. The Motor has to be mounted to it's MDF plate, and the impeller has to then be mounted to the motor shaft. You need to have access to an inch/pound torque wrench. Not a foot/pound one!! I don't own one, but borrowed one from a co-worker/friend at work over the weekend. YOU DON'T WANT TO ATTEMPT ASSEMBLY WITHOUT THE TORQUE WRENCH!!
One other thing that I haven't mentioned anywhere yet is that when I went to assemble my Clear Vue, I noticed that the cone part of the cyclone body was not symmetrical. I questioned Ed about this, and he promptly sent a new body out and had the first one picked up, at his expense. No questions asked. Talk about customer service!!! And he has been more than diligent about answering all the questions I have sent his way. Heck of a nice guy to work with.
If you decide to go this route, PM me and I will suggest a few things to have on hand to speed the install up. Jim

[David Pettibone]

The Dust Gorilla 2HP (or 3HP) from Oneida is well worth it if you got the bucks. I had an awful experience with a Jet 2HP Cannister Style Dust Collector ($500) and I don't want to deal with that again. Live and learn for this guy. Major problems with the pleats loading up and starving the motor no matter how often I blew them out with a compressor combined with using the flapper repeatedly.

I am blown away by this unit!!! I do a lot of particleboard and very LITTLE gets past the fan to the external filter. I am not saying there isn't a unit just as good in the 2HP class, but I know this unit is about as good as you can expect for a 2HP cyclone unless we want to get to the molecular level (not me!!!!). I don't expect to ever own another dust collector in my life unless the motor unfortunately konks out on me one day. Then I'll just replace the motor and go on.

If you can huddle up enough cash, get this unit and end it. I have been through 3 dust collectors with no success until now. My wife tires of me saying this is the last one, I promise. Well, she's seen this unit and knows by the look on my face that it works. A smile a mile wide!!! Anyways, do what's right for you and what you can afford. This is just my opinion:cool: of this unit and how it's worked for me. Jim Becker and Andy London also helped in my decision and everything they said about the unit was right on. Take care.

David:) :) :)

[Dan Oliphant]

Ed,
I use the Grizzly 2 hp unit, and also run a home based business. Equipment attached to the cyclone are; cabinet TS (3hp), drum sander (22 inch), router station, bandsaw, radial arm saw, jointer (8 inch) and my planer (20 inch).
Although this unit operates at 75db, they should be placed in an area isolated from the general work area.
The grizzly is a very effecient unit for the cost, don't forget to include all ducting and dampers into your cost.

[Joe Mioux]

My concerns are the lack of power with the 2HP units. That is why the 5HP looks good to me.


I want to get this purchase right the first time as I am going to start asking questions in the laser woodworking forums and I will not have the money to buy another cyclone after that forum finishes with me :)

Getting all of the parts shipped from one source and having everything fit is important to me. I don't want to order from several sources, run all over the country to find this and that and have to cobble up stuff to get it to work.

Ed:

I have the Gorilla. If you have not yet spoken with the Oneida people call them with your requirements. They are the experts. If a 2hp unit is too small they will recommend the 3hp, etc.

More important to me than the DC was Oneida's customer service. Since I purchased their product, they did my duct work desin at no charge! I know that it is engineered properly.

I compared Oneida's prices to another well known duct work vendor and Oneida's price beat the other company.

As you stated you want you want all the parts to fit the first time and you don't want to be running all over the place finding parts to make your DC operate.

In other words, Oneida will provide you with a complete system. All you have to do is assemble. In addition, dealing with one source gives you the benefit of having that company keep a record of your purchases and the drawings of your shop in the database. So, in the future when you need to modify your system, they will have all the information needed for the modification

Joe

[Jim DeMarco]

Ed,

Just like to add my 2 cents here. Everyone has provided some very good info, and the topic of CFM was briefly touched upon. Also the last post directed you to contact Oneida, very good idea. A second source is air handling systems, they have a great section on designing your duct work.
The key to a great system is to spec out and purchase your dust system AFTER the duct work. First off pick your two primary machines, and spec out the size to maintain between 3500 to 4000 FPM velocity in the pipe. Next design the run the duct will take, the easiest calc is to convert everything to straight pipe equivilants....
The key is to maintain proper duct sizing to maintain the velocity through the losses.... shoot me an email and I can better explain.

The point to all of my ramblings is, design the system, do the math, and when you are finished you will know the proper duct size, and the pressure drop at the dust collecter. CFM ratings are vauge actually, the information you need is the CFM rating AT X inches of water (pressure drop).

There is a great section on airhanling systems website. I would be more than happy to crunch numbers for anyone out there. I hope this helps out...

Jim

[Steve Cox]

I have the 2hp Woodsucker and have found it to be an excellent unit. There used to be some info on the Bill Pentz site about why he had gone with a 5hp motor for his design and it was because of the impeller. If you were using a more efficient impeller i.e. "caged" or an "airfoil" then 2hp was all the power you needed. I'm not sure if that info has changed or not as once I figured out what unit I wanted I stopped doing extensive reading on the subject. I had had enough headaches trying to figure it all out!!!:D

[Ed Lang]

Thank you everyone.

I am going now to find the air flow required for each of my machines, make a drawing of the shop layout and then make a phone call or two.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Ed Lang,

When deciding on which dc is most appropriate for your shop requirement, you have to look at only one branch of your planned network; the "worst-case scenario" branch. The specific volume (cfm) and static pressure resistance of that branch should be determined, then compared to the "system" performance curve of the dc's which are being considered.

Looking at cfm alone, can be quite misleading. You have to know at what static pressure that particular cfm rating occurs.

Is a 5 hp dc necessary? That depends on your shop requirement, and the individual system performance curve of that particular dc.

Many of the current crop of 2 hp cyclones, are using 7" intakes and 13.5" impellers. This allows for a high cfm rating, but at low static pressure. Remember, these dc's are tested with a very short length of pipe, usually about 10x inlet diameter. On a 7" intake, that's just under 6 ft(70") of 7" pipe.

Let's look at a typical rating of approximately 1200 cfm@ 2" sp. What exactly does that 2" sp mean? The 2" sp represents the total suction, or pressure difference, between the system, and atmospheric pressure.

That "total static pressure", gives you two components. First, you get "velocity pressure". That's the air pressure generated by the speed of the airstream in a given pipe diameter. Second, you get the power to overcome the resistance of that pipe, or "static pressure loss". In other words, total static pressure, or suction, equals velocity pressure AND static pressure loss.

You need about 1" velocity pressure, to get a flow of 4000 fpm in a pipe. If you managed to get a total sp reading of only 2" sp with that short test pipe, that means you only have 1" of resistance power. As you add to that resistance, by lengthening your duct, you consume part of your velocity pressure. (CFM goes down). Once that velocity pressure drops below 1" wc, you have to start thinking about going with a smaller pipe diameter. Usually, that's the next size down, or 6" pipe.

The 6" pipe, will dramatically increase total static pressure. That means that both velocity pressure, and static pressure resistance will increase. You will now get a lower cfm reading, but at a much higher suction level. Now, you can play with duct length, up to the point where velocity pressure drops below 1" wc. Remember, 1" velocity pressure, is about 4000 fpm.

Now "IF" your dc could still pull 1200 cfm in a 6" pipe, then your total SP reading might be 1200cfm at 4.85"sp. That's just an example. It won't happen. Why? Because that particular dc was only capable of pulling that 1200 cfm "AT" 2" sp. It will now pull less cfm, but at a rating higher than 2" sp. You'd typically have to add about 1.3"(bell-mouth)-2.1" sp(plain end pipe) to account for the new "entry loss" of the 6" pipe. You'd now be operating at 3.3"sp- 4.1"sp.(depending on inlet type) Once you've added that new entry-loss, you only have to deal with "length resistance", which is .045" per foot (at 4000fpm, smooth-walled pipe)

If you look at your dc's system performance curve once again, look at that particular sp point on the curve, to see how many cfm you'll get. Remember, that's only the short test pipe, with a 6" reducer on it. You've not added any ducting yet.

Here's an example. Look at the system performance curve for the 2hp Commercial Oneida in this test result chart. At 3.3"SP(bell-mouth), it's pulling roughly 1100 cfm. At 4.1"sp (plain-end pipe) it's pulling about 1030 cfm.

That should allow you to add another 2.9" sp resistance to your ducting, before you start dropping below 4000 fpm in the 6" pipe. (785 cfm at 6.2"sp according to curve)

If you're going to use a 7" main, you have to keep an eye on that 1100 cfm flow rate. You don't want that to drop much below 950 cfm, for a velocity of 3500 fpm in that 7" pipe. You'd only have about 1.5" sp to play with, if that were the case.

The figures I've used to calculate entry loss, are for a bell-mouth entry. That simulates a properly tapered hood. Using a properly tapered hood will reduce that "entry loss" resistance, and therefore, buy you more cfm. Had I used a plain-end pipe for calculation, I'd lose another .8" sp roughly (less cfm). To calculate the new entry loss, you use only the difference between the old entry loss, and the new entry loss.

Keep in mind, this particular version of the 2 hp Oneida Commercial had a 14" impeller. Current versions ship with a 13.5" impeller I believe.

Bottom line, a dc such as this Oneida should easily handle 95% of small-shops. If you're contemplating a 1200 cfm requirement at a particular source (37" dual-drum snader, etc), use 7" pipe, and keep it VERY short to that machine. With all the others requiring 800 cfm at source, you have a fair bit of reach. Roughly 35 feet of all 6" pipe, or a longer combination of 7" main, with 6" drops, not exceeding 1.5"sp in "length resistance".

There's also a fair amount of "grey area" with air flow. For example, you may ideally want to have 3500 fpm in a horizontal main to handle any kind of woodworking waste you throw at it, but if your farthest machine is producing wood-flour, you can get away with 2500 fpm in that main. Careful planning regarding shop-layout, will increase the "reach" of that dc.

If you're trying to fit a dc into an already layed-out shop, give some thought to where you want to place it. If by necessity that means an unusually long run of pipe, THEN you may have to consider a different dc. There are many ways to go. Perhaps a cyclone with a caged back-inclined impeller, like a Torit-Donaldson. That'll get you more static pressure at the same horsepower.($$$$$) Perhaps a well-designed single-stage.

Remember that those elbows add up REALLY quickly. A single elbow can consume 1/2"sp.(12 feet of pipe)

Bob

PS. The underscoring was unintentional, sorry.


http://www.oneida-air.com/advantages/images/performance-curves.jpg

(1200cfm@4.85)

[Jim Becker]

Bob, the original Oneida 2hp Commercial did have a slightly larger impeller, but it was not the same design as the current 13.5" which moves a lot of air, more than making up for the slight difference in the diameter. (I have one and it rocks) The Gorilla 2hp unit uses the same impeller. It's the end result that counts.

[Michael Perata]

I replaced a Jet DC 1100C with an Onieda 2HP Com'l unit and now the shop stays clean.

Maybe I could have saved some money elsewhere, but the Onieda unit works and that's what I wanted.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim,

I just noticed Oneida's latest product description. I was wondering in what way the impeller is different. They appear to describe two different impellers now.

The one they refer to as a "back-inclined", is actually a back-curved radial, is it not? They also talk about an airfoil as well, so I'm a little confused.

I'm getting a bit of a chuckle out of the recently "increasing" performance on some of those dc's. The cfm ratings are higher than they were two months ago, but at reaaaaaally low static pressure points. 1400 cfm at 1" sp??????????

They'd have to take that measurement in an 11" pipe, to get that kind of reading. Too bad really. I find that only confuses people. If that 1400 cfm were flowing in a 1 foot long, 7" diameter pipe, you'd get a reading of 1400 cfm at 5.07"sp, yet their own curve shows about 1000 cfm at that pressure. Hmmmm. Gets curiouser and curiouser.

Mind you, I still think it's a heckuva dc, especially for that price. The Grizz, too. Now I'm wondering who's gonna come out with the "Godzilla". Which reminds me. Whatever happened to the Taco Bell Chihuahua? "Heeere leezard, leezard". :D

Bob

[Allan Johanson]

I'm getting a bit of a chuckle out of the recently "increasing" performance on some of those dc's. The cfm ratings are higher than they were two months ago, but at reaaaaaally low static pressure points. 1400 cfm at 1" sp??????????

They'd have to take that measurement in an 11" pipe, to get that kind of reading. Too bad really. I find that only confuses people. If that 1400 cfm were flowing in a 1 foot long, 7" diameter pipe, you'd get a reading of 1400 cfm at 5.07"sp, yet their own curve shows about 1000 cfm at that pressure. Hmmmm. Gets curiouser and curiouser.
Bob

Marketing departments everywhere are working overtime trying to sell DCs, that's why you keep seeing these useless numbers.

Check out Kraemer and see what numbers they're pushing. xxx cfm @ 1" SP. Completely useless. If you can't trust a big industrial name, who can you trust?

http://www.kraemertool.com/smportcyc.htm

Too much bunk out there.

For myself, I ignore all the max cfm claims. Useless to me. For a smaller DC I'd start looking at a system chart in the 5-6" SP range to get a better idea of what I'd see in my shop or in the 7-10" SP range for something like a Bill Pentz cyclone. That fan pulls like crazy.

But I do have a piece of advice for all you folks out there who live and die by DC calcs alone....all your math ain't worth a hill of beans when you actually hook up a machine to your carefully calculated theoretical airflow numbers.

After all, if all that mattered was getting xxx cfm at the end of a pipe before you hook up a machine, then hooking up a 6" pipe to a small palm sander would work well too. But that isn't the case. The machine itself plays a massive role in this.

In my shop I can have 1400cfm being delivered to a machine, but when you actually hook it up the final airflow drops down to anywhere from 780cfm to 1200cfm depending on the machine using the identical duct run. All kinds of factors kick in here.

Bottom line, don't fret too much about the math. ;)

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris Lee]

Ed,

I have the Gorilla and all I can say is that I can not imagine needing much more suction. I have it set up with about 6 feet of 7" duct with a 6" drop and then about 10 feet of 6" flex hose that I drop down to 4" at the machine. I use it fior my planer, jointer, bandsaw and tablesaw mostly. It picks up just about everything.

Good Luck with your decision. I am not that far from you if you want to see how it runs sometime.

Chris

[Bob Dodge]

DC's like the Kraemers, use a completely different system from the consumer machines. Most industrial dc manufacturers use the same system. They are NOT showing you "AT WHAT" static pressure the dc is operating at, they are showing you the effect of adding "external static resistance".

Every Kraemer chart you look at, starts with the volume the dc is pulling, with 1" of static resistance added to the dc, then 2", then 3" etc. THAT'S why they all start at 1" sp. They're showing you what you'll get as you add ducting. 1", is NOT the operating point of the dc. That might be something like 800 cfm AT 3.7"sp for example, and with 1" sp added, your operating point will now be 4.7" sp.

With consumer dc's, you have to figure that out yourself. You have to take into consideration the inlet pipe for example, and calculate a new entry-loss if you're going to use smaller diameter drops. Then, from there, you have to calculate the effect of adding your pipe.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

I'm getting a bit of a chuckle out of the recently "increasing" performance on some of those dc's. The cfm ratings are higher than they were two months ago, but at reaaaaaally low static pressure points. 1400 cfm at 1" sp??????????

Bob, a fan curve only shows the performance of the system through a range of lab test conditions. But it does shows you what kind of airflow to expect in general from your situation at a given static pressure once your duct work and hoods are in play. In the case of Oneida, they appear to have adopted the max CFM figure from the fan curve in their marketing materials (surprising to me), probably to deal with competitive issues. But the curve is what is important when you compare systems...not the marketing materials. Getting a fan curve on many units is hard, unfortunately, especially one that is honest and accurate. I'm hoping the lessons learned in those systems are futher leveraged to provide better systems for the hobbiest shops, too.,

I think we are wandering down an unproductive path if we worry about how ridiculous a 1" SP figure is relative to real life (which it is) since the curves are just a resource to help you calculate where a given system will perform in your shop with duct work. They have to start and end the curve somewhere! It also points out the theoretical max air that the thing could push which might be useful when comparing fan types and sizes. It's also good to look at the max SP the system can handle before performance falls below what is required to service your tools and duct work...which brings up something else...

One thing that really is interesting is the advent "high suction" (SP) systems that Oneida has been releasing in the past couple of years. This is the result of greater use of CNC technology in small pro shops and the dust collection characteristics on smaller tools that necessarily have high SP requirements due to small ports, hoses, etc.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim,

I wasn't referring to "fan" curves. I'm talking about "system" curves. About three or four months ago when those cyclones came out (Gorilla/Grizz), they both showed lower system performance ratings at the bottom end, and at already low static pressure. Then they both started showing higher cfm ratings, at even lower static pressure readings. Now, they're over 1400 cfm AT 1" sp. Like I said, you have to use 11" pipe to get a reading like that.

Here's the Beacon Engineering calculator. Try pulling 1400 cfm through a 7" pipe, and tell me what static pressure you get. Remember, total static, is the combined total of velocity pressure, and static pressure loss. That's a fan law. The calculator will give you both components, and you have to add those together.

If you're not familiar with this calculator, just under the top section where you enter pipe diameter, airflow(cfm), and pipe length, you'll see "Duct entry configuration". Choose "plain duct end". You can look at other like a bell-mouth entry for example, but for now, stick to "plain duct end".

Now scroll to the very bottom and select "Vertical discharge, no loss". Hit enter, and there's your total.

Hint: When entering "duct length", use 1 ft. This minimizes "length" loss. You just want to see what the operating point is at your dc's inlet. Alternatively, you could use "6ft", to simulate a test duct with 10x diameter. You'll get a slightly lower reading because of the 6 ft "length" resistance.

http://www.freecalc.com/ductfram.htm

Bob

[Jim Becker]

I wasn't referring to "fan" curves. I'm talking about "system" curves.

I believe we are just using different terms for the same thing. Like anything, the extremes at the low end of the SP axis are not important since they are not realistically acheivable. At the low end of the curve (higher SP), you need to know when the system/fan can no longer move enough air at enough velocity to work. One should be asking, "Can this system move x CFM at y SP and a given minimum velocity when my duct work and hoods calculate as..."

[Allan Johanson]

DC's like the Kraemers, use a completely different system from the consumer machines. Most industrial dc manufacturers use the same system. They are NOT showing you "AT WHAT" static pressure the dc is operating at, they are showing you the effect of adding "external static resistance".

Every Kraemer chart you look at, starts with the volume the dc is pulling, with 1" of static resistance added to the dc, then 2", then 3" etc. THAT'S why they all start at 1" sp. They're showing you what you'll get as you add ducting. 1", is NOT the operating point of the dc. That might be something like 800 cfm AT 3.7"sp for example, and with 1" sp added, your operating point will now be 4.7" sp.

With consumer dc's, you have to figure that out yourself. You have to take into consideration the inlet pipe for example, and calculate a new entry-loss if you're going to use smaller diameter drops. Then, from there, you have to calculate the effect of adding your pipe.

Bob

Hi Bob,

I know that you love DC topics and especially industrial stuff so I thought I'd correct you here. You are mistaken about Kraemer's info at the very least. What you wrote sounded very strange to me considering all the other info on Kraemer's site so I contacted them. Here is what they said about their 2HP cyclone:

************

Dear Allan,

Thank you for your e-mail regarding performance on our S 2-6 CYN dust collector.

The air flow for the fan is 1200 CFM at 1" S.P. The pressure drop over the filters is approximately 2". If the ducting has a static pressure drop of 6", the air flow will be 700 CFM.

The inlet to the fan is 7". You cannot hook up a bunch of 7" ducts to the system. A 7" duct would allow for (3) 4" duct connections or (2) 5" duct connections to allow for the proper drawing capacity.

I hope this information is helpful.

************

This makes sense with what I saw on their site. When you look up their performance system curve, you will see that at 8" SP it's flowing almost 700cfm, as in their example.

So the Kraemer chart I linked to is really a system curve just like what Oneida (and other companies) publishes.

FYI, on average this 2HP Kraemer cyclone performs a little better than the Oneida 2HP Commercial cyclone where it counts most (higher SP levels).

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=9933

A little thread I contributed to quite a bit...the Bill Pentz design I cobbled together. Man, this things moves some serious air...just need to get the ductwork to it now.

[Bob Dodge]

Jim,

I agree with what you're saying, to a point, but remember, we're talking about a "system performance" curve here. In otherwords, it's "the system configuration" which I'd be buying, not "that system" but with the inlet removed, and an 11" pipe added, or an 11" pipe acting as a hood on a 7" inlet. I'd wanna know what it pulls "as I buy it".

I'm sure there are lotsa people out there, who would calculate their pipe based on that 1400 cfm figure. If they did, they'd be in for a rude awakening. The "entry loss" alone on a 6" network, or a 7"main/6"drop, would kill that 1400 cfm rating. He'd be lucky to be pulling 1000 cfm after the reduction is taken into account, BEFORE he/she starts adding ducting.

Remember, the post that started this thread, had ED contemplating the purchase of a 5hp dc. I imagine that this percieved "need", is due to all the hype surrounding CFM. There's not a single machine in Ed's arsenal, that requires more than a 6" pipe, or 800 cfm at the business end of that pipe. What Ed needs, is the suction to provide that 800 cfm, where he needs it.

He simply has to calculate the resistance of his "worst-case scenario" branch, then compare that to the "system performance curve" of the dc he's looking at. He can't just look at 1400 cfm and calculate from that flow, he has to take into account, the dc's new entry-loss, and start from THAT point on the curve. The entry-loss difference from an 11" pipe, to a 6" pipe, would be staggering.

A 5hp dc might not necessarily fare much better. You HAVE to consider the operating pressure. Putting a 6" pipe, on a 5hp dc, is a lot like using an undersized 4" main, on a 2hp dc. That 5hp dc, may only "shine", if used with a low resistance 9" pipe for example. Suction is key. He may find for example, that he could operate two machines simultaneously, on twin 6" drops, off a 9" main. That would be a nice high-volume/ low-suction scenario. But if he were to use a 6" main, and operate only one of those machines at a time, he may find that he'd air-starve a low-suction 5hp dc.

Ed's shop is nice and roomy (28x42), but as he said, most machinery is in the front half of the shop. Any "real" 2hp dc should handle that, as long as the network is efficiently layed out. That's a pretty general statement however. To know more precisely if his needs will be met, you need the real numbers, and THAT, is what a system curve is supposed to show.

If Ed found 2" of resistance in his pipe, and simply looked at the stated 1" operating point on the system curve, then added his 2" of resistance to that point, he'd be reading his cfm expectation at the 3" point. He'd be wayyyy off. Why? Because he'd have no idea what the original test configuration was, that generated the 1400 cfm at 1" sp reading. He'd naturally expect that this is the point at which his system tested, "as sold". That's the whole point of a "system curve".

In fact, he couldn't even begin to calculate his pipe resistance, UNTIL he knew how many cfm the dc is pulling "as sold".

Bob

[Jim Becker]

Bob, Oneida's tests are all done with pipe that is the same size as the inlet. I've been in their test lab in Syracuse physically and seen the setup. It's essentially done the exact same way that things were pictured in the WOOD Magazine cyclone article in December 2003. They test competitive systems exactly the same way...there were at least five of them lined up when I was visiting in February 2004.

I really don't know where you're getting this 11" pipe thing...there is no system anywhere in the range we talk about in these forums that has an inlet bigger than 8" that I know of. The norm is 6" or 7" typically with a commercial 5hp system having a 8" inlet in Oneida's case. Only when you get to their big 5-7hp direct drive system to you get a 10" inlet...and that's for a realy big shop. (I'm using Oneida as the example purely because that's the vendor I'm most familiar with)

As to your other calculations, I'll leave that to others more knowledgable on the subject to comment on.

[Bob Dodge]

Quote:

Dear Allan,

Thank you for your e-mail regarding performance on our S 2-6 CYN dust collector.

The air flow for the fan is 1200 CFM at 1" S.P. The pressure drop over the filters is approximately 2". If the ducting has a static pressure drop of 6", the air flow will be 700 CFM.

The inlet to the fan is 7". You cannot hook up a bunch of 7" ducts to the system. A 7" duct would allow for (3) 4" duct connections or (2) 5" duct connections to allow for the proper drawing capacity.

I hope this information is helpful.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've illustrated my point precisely. The 1" is external static. So is the further added 6" of "external static" producing 700 cfm.

1200 cfm,at 1" sp, is not the "operating point" of the dc. It's the cfm flowing, with 1" sp added to the inlet. The clue, was in the 2" pressure drop at the filter.

The operating point should be about 3.733" sp, to pull 1200 cfm through a 7" inlet. That would yield 2.474" friction loss, and a velocity pressure of 1.259"sp.

If you've interpreted Kraemer's response in a way that suggests 1200 cfm is a "free-air" fan only rating, all you have to do is look at the 1200 cfm fgree-air rated consumer dc's. They barely pull 800 cfm at the inlet, let alone, adding another 6" of pipe resistance.

Bob

[Bob Dodge]

Jim,

I know all of that. That's not what I'm saying here.

What I'm saying is, they show a cfm rating of 1400cfm "AT" 1" sp. Explain to me how you think they can flow 1400 cfm through a 7' pipe, AT 1"sp.

To get that 1" reading, you'd have to measure it in an 11" pipe. There's no way around it.

Bob

PS. Why I mentioned it, was in regard to the recent CFM war. A few months back, they showed a lower cfm rating, but at 2" sp. Then when the cfm war escalated, I saw this new 1" sp rating, and higher cfm. There was no mention of a component change, to UP the dc's performance, in fact, the lower sp point illustrates pricisely that. It was just a different test procedure. Pressure was lowered, not raised.

Had the dc's performance been increased, then so would have risen the dc's original operating point.

[Allan Johanson]

Bob,

I don't care about other DCs and "free air" ratings. That's irrelevant. You also didn't see the context of my question to Kraemer which included examples from their curve and what would I see if I measured the airflow with a length of ductwork, etc. I don't have a copy of that to show you.

All ya gotta do is look at this:

******

The pressure drop over the filters is approximately 2". If the ducting has a static pressure drop of 6", the air flow will be 700 CFM.

******

Especially the ducting part. If I had 6" SP loss in ducting and used that value alone with their chart (the one called "direct drive blower performance chart")...

http://www.kraemertool.com/datas26cyncdn.htm

...I'd see about 850cfm. But that isn't the case. It can't flow that much air with 6" of ducting. You need to add on the overhead for the filters that they said (2").

Now look at that chart again, but at the 8" SP mark. Now you've got the 700cfm the Kraemer guy said it would flow with 6" SP loss of ductwork in place.

This e-mail along with my original questions and examples to them about what I would see in my shop if I measured the airflow and SP values makes this very clear. Sorry you can't see it.

If you still think it's something else, maybe you should talk to them.

I think you're overthinking this too much. Time to stand back and relax a bit. :D

Cheers,

Allan

[Bob Dodge]

Allan,

If you've invented a way of pulling 1200 cfm through a 7" pipe at 1" sp, I'm sure some physics professors would be quite anxious to hear about it.

Bob

PS. Go to the Beacon Engineering calculator, and TRY it. Put ANY inlet you want on it. Use the SMALLEST pipe length possible. 1 foot. and,,,,good luck.

http://www.freecalc.com/ductfram.htm

At the top, where it says "duct type", enter "round". Enter 7" pipe, 1200 cfm, and delete the 100 foot duct length, and enter 1 ft duct length at the bottom of that chart.

Scroll down to "entry configuration", and choose "plain end duct".

Scroll to the bottom of the page, and for duct discharge, choose "Vertical discharge, no loss". Hit "calculate" below that. YOU tell me what you see.

I see 2.274" total duct loss, AND 1.259" Velocity pressure.

Total static pressure, is the combined total of those numbers. 2.274 +1.259 = 3.533" Total SP. That's the MINIMUM pressure, required to pull 1200 cfm through a 7" smooth-walled pipe, with a plain end.

THAT assumes ZERO outlet loss. If there were 2" outlet loss(filters), the operating point of the blower alone, would have to be even higher, by 2". You'd have to have 4.274" friction loss. Velocity pressure would stay the same, since that's the same volume flowing through the pipe. Total operating pressure, would HAVE to be 5.533"sp for the blower, MINUS the 2" loss for the filter(outlet), you're back to 3.533 at the inlet.

"Direct-drive" blower, means exactly that. It's NOT a belt-drive. If the guy is telling you that the filters ADD 2" sp, instead of "INCLUDED" in the 1200 cfm rating, then this dc would be matched by a $200 Asian 1 1/2 hp dc. Frankly, at $2500.00, I kinda doubt that. If it were as you stated, you'd be pulling 1000 cfm according to the chart. That's at the inlet, no pipe. You couldn't even use 7" pipe on that dc, because you'd already be below 4000 fpm. (approx 3750 fpm)

Just think for a second. FORGET the 2" filter pressure drop, forget the 6" pipe resistance. Just look at the blower. Run the Beacon Engineering calculator, and you tell ME, what you see.

By the way, that 2" pressure drop at "the filter", means "total outlet resistance. Those guys use a smaller diameter pipe at the blower outlet, to convey waste to the top of the filter. That's why the pressure-drop number is so high.(E-series)

The Belfabs, use no such outlet restriction. That's why they claim a 30% performance increase over the competition.

PPS, You should have asked them about the impeller diameter.

[Allan Johanson]

Bob,

You're asking the wrong person. Since you don't seem to understand what's going on I suggest you talk to Kraemer yourself. Ask them whatever questions you want. However I think you're being very unfair to them when you're saying a $200 DC can perform similarly though. That isn't right.

If you really want to start understanding this topic you should buy yourself some testing gear. Just buy some gauges and a pitot tube and start testing things in the real world. Theory can only take you so far, then reality kicks in and really messes things up! :D

FYI, I've found the 0-2" Dwyer magnehelic gauge is great for the vast majority of testing. However, the 0-10" is great for SP tests and at times when you have very high airflow and the 2" gauge can't handle it. The pitot tube to buy is the Dwyer 167-6. Maybe $250 CDN should cover it for the pitot tube and the two gauges. Or you can go digital. Sweet.

This thread has been diverted enough so please create a new thread if you want to continue this topic. Ed wants to know what kind of cyclone to buy and it won't be a Kraemer.

Cheers,

Allan

[Bob Dodge]

Allan, you've skirted the issue again.

You said that the Kraemer's blower only, is pulling 1200 cfm, and that the filter, reduces that to 1000 cfm. According to your logic, you're saying, that $2,500.00 dc is only capable of pulling 1000 cfm with a 7" intake, when the filters are installed. That doesn't even get you 3800 fpm velocity in that 7" inlet. You couldn't use a 7" pipe on it, according to "your logic" despite the fact it has a 7" intake.

A $200. Asian dc, can pull over 800, with a 5" inlet.
The Delta 850, 1 1/2 hp, pulled 895 cfm. 6" inlet, 11" impeller.

http://www.rd.com/americanwoodworker/toolguide/TT_DustCollection.pdf

Care to explain "your conclusion"????

Bob

[Cecil Arnold]

Bob and Allen, while you both appear to be knowledgable in the subject, might I suggest that the discussion has reached or soon will reach the level of a public Pi--ing contest and might better serve those of us who are interested in the subject matter if your difference in opinion were discussed in a less public forum, such as MPs of e-mail. I came to SMC after watching another forum degenerate from woodworking information into political super egos and would hate to see the same thing happen at SMC. Thank you.

[markus shaffer]

Ed,

A lot has been posted here regarding CFM, pressure drop and the such. I did a bit of research before I bought my cyclone (2 hp commercial Oneida) and most of it gave me a headache. There is a wealth of information out there and no one can refute the benefits of the research that Bill Pentz made regarding this topic. While I will always encourage people doing their research, I just wanted to get the right machine and get on with my work.

I think at the end of the day, we all really do want to buy the right tool and not have to replace it after some time due to it's inadequate performance. This is why I decided to go with Oneida. They build dust collection machines and that's it. Their ductwork engineers did the layout for me and made sure that I would have a machine that would not only be sufficient for the shop I'm in now, but also for what I'm likely to grow into. I was not pressured to buy something more expensive than what I needed even though I made it known that I was more than willing to spend more if I was convinced I ought to. The service I recieved from Oneida was among the best I've gotten in the woodworking industry.

That being said, the performance of the machine I have is pretty amazing. My shop is fairly small, but I've stuffed a couple big machines in here. There are two gates open on my system all the time, one 5" and one 3" both going to my saw. I can open a 6" gate to my 20" planer leaving the two aforementioned gates open and still more than enough suction to capture everything the planer can throw out. Even when running a 20" inch wide board through it. Fit and finish of the machine is excellent.

Overall, I would say that my time was better spent going with the Oneida because the system and service were pretty all inclusive. I didn't have to buy or borrow anything to install it. I didn't have to fabricate any parts. It came in several boxes via FedEx ground, everything was well packed, everything was there and it went up relatively easy. To me, that was the most important thing. I wanted a product that had the least amount of headaches and that I was sure would be a good investment. I think that's what I got with Onieda. I'm not saying that you can't or won't get that kind of product and service with any of the other companies, but I believe you are guaranteed that with Oneida.

-Markus

[Jim O'Dell]

I have read till I am about to explode!
snip

So, Ed, have you made your decidion yet????? Or have you just pulled a sheet over your head and wished we'd all go away??? ;-))))
There has been some good info here, and like I said originally "...this is a great time to be in the market for a cyclone. There are several really good options." I think it will boil down to which color you like best... green, white, yellow, or none, and which one hits the price point you are looking for. Good Luck, and let us know when you have it coming! Jim.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim,

I agree with you about "a great time to be in the market", and let me add, for dc's in general. Informed consumers are driving the demand. A tip of the hat to Bill Pentz in that regard.

I'm sure either the Oneida or the new Grizz would make excellant choices, as would a shop-built Pentz cyclone. For the faint-of-heart, perhaps even a passive cyclone body (no motor), with a shop-made Pentz blower. All excellant choices.

Let me add one more to the mix for the budget-concious. The new 2 hp Delta 50-761, single-stage. This appears to be a radical departure from the previous crop of consumer-grade single-stage designs. Gone is the choked-down blower outlet, and this should be a very free-breathing design, balanced toward suction rather than amp-draw limitation. Very gutsy move by Delta.

That dc has all 7+" porting (inlet/outlet), along with a 12" impeller. Even the twin 1 micron filters offer low pressure-drop, with 41 sq.ft. of surface area. These are among the nicest filters I've seen on a consumer dc, rivaled only by some of the higher-end General Internationals. This will be a very strong performer indeed, and sells for $499. I'm told. Definitely worthy of consideration. Fit and finish of the entire new series, is excellant. I saw the 3hp and 5hp versions last year, at an industrial trade-show, just prior to public release. Very impressive.

Bob

[Mike Weaver]

So, Ed, have you made your decidion yet????? Or have you just pulled a sheet over your head and wished we'd all go away??? ;-))))
There has been some good info here, and like I said originally "...this is a great time to be in the market for a cyclone. There are several really good options." I think it will boil down to which color you like best... green, white, yellow, or none, and which one hits the price point you are looking for. Good Luck, and let us know when you have it coming! Jim.

Ed,
I'll second a "Me too!" sorta post - a great time to be looking and PLEASE let us know what you went with and when it's on its way.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Jimmy Tallent]

I dont no weather to step in here or not,but iv'e had a tempest cyclone for about 8 months hooked to planer & tablesaw,3 hp and 6 inch pipe, :) not had ANY problems at all. It keeps on hummin.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Quite the thread here guys :rolleyes:

Lots of info for sure, and it is a confusing and amusing subject :D

I recently built a Pentz cyclone,
http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/cyclone/cyclone_finished%21.jpg
it works VERY well, so well I have to laugh out loud everytime I open the clean out at the bottom of my filter stack and find almost NO DUST.
http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/cyclone/filter_stack_cleanout_drawer_check.jpg
If I wipe my hand across the surface of the bottom of the
clean out, I come away with a slight, tiny amount of dust.

It really works!

If you don't mind, I'll share a funny story, I was doing a lot of heavy work, jointing, planing, and cutting dados and using the router table, I thought I should check to see if the dust bin was full...

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/cyclone/cyclone_full1.JPG
Ah........yep, I'd say that was FULL..... :o

Over　full, as some dust dropped out of the dust chute when I pulled the bin out.

I was fearing a bunch of dust in my filter stack, but...
http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/cyclone/filter_stack_clean_out_one_chip.JPG
There was ONE lonely chip, I stopped just in time!:cool:

I've since put a window in the top of the lid.

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/cyclone/cyclone_window.JPG
I've run about 150 US Gallons of dust through this cyclone, and I've yet to get enough dust to measure in the clean out of the filter stack.

So, if the Clea-Vue is based on Mr. Pentz's design, I'd be leaning that way.

Cheers!

[Ed Lang]

I had a long reply for the thread ready to go this morning and my ISP went down. I have it saved on my desktop for posting later today but after the last post.... I want to hear if other have the same results in the dust box under the filter stack. I think this shows how the cyclone works better than any numbers. Real world is what I am looking for. Numbers don't lie, but the way the numbers are obtained may not be perfect. I just want to know where the dust is going? In with the chips or in the filters.

Post your real world results please.

I'll send up my saved post later today.

[Jim Becker]

Ed, the only time I've ever had more than a tiny bit of flour in my under-filter cleanout bin was when I accidently "overfilled" the bin...which I also have a window in now. Of course...the window doesn't help if you forget to look at it! Jointing and planing can fill a 55 gallon bin REALLY fast...

[Allan Johanson]

I just want to know where the dust is going? In with the chips or in the filters.

Post your real world results please.

I'll send up my saved post later today.

With a Pentz cyclone, the dust is going in the dust bin with the tiniest amount ever going in the filters. I've found this with my Pentz cyclone.

Considering Andy London's amazing success with the Oneida Dust Gorilla (over 100 barrels and a handful of dust in the filters), I'd say that is excellent performance too.

When you compare these machines to a single-stage DC with filter bags that clog up in as little as 10 minutes with a drum sander or sanding on the lathe, there is simply no comparison.

You'll be a happy man.

BTW, remember that the ClearVue cyclone is roughly equivalent with the Oneida 3HP cyclone so when you're comparing cost/performance numbers please keep that in mind.

Cheers,

Allan

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Stu,

Good to see you again. Have you gotten around to that blower mod we spoke about a while back, or are you now satisfied with your suction at that last drop?

Bob

[Jim O'Dell]

Don't look now, but I just saw on the Clear Vue site that there is a sale for the combo unit at 895.00 as a 1 year in business anniversay special. I got mine on sale at 943.00 and thought it was a great price. Just verified, that INCLUDES SHIPPING!!!! This might push several others on the bubble over the edge. Includes 6 blast gates, and everything except the filters and chip barrel. Happy shopping! Jim.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hi Stu,

Good to see you again. Have you gotten around to that blower mod we spoke about a while back, or are you now satisfied with your suction at that last drop?

Bob

Hi Bob.

No I've not "tweaked" the blower yet, and not I'm not 100% happy with the set up, but, I'm very busy at work, and the "honey to do" list is getting longer all the time, so I'm getting some work done and I'll tweak the blower when I have some time.

Really it all works very well, but I know there is "Some more" there, and I want to see what I can get. Can you tell my other hobby is motorcycles :D (as in let's find that last 5 hp...!!)

Cheers!

[Ed Lang]

I must admit, I have stayed away from this thread due to the tone it took on. Kinda wished I had not started it now.

For those who are asking..... I have not decided as of today. I plan to draw up the shop layout this weekend and FAX it to the "O" on Tuesday and get a quote. Then I will start trying to narrow the field down further.



So far I plan to NOT mount the unit to the wall but have it on a metal stand. I have seen several web sites and posts that talk (or show) how folks have tried to isolate the DC from the wall for noise. I am also looking for something with a large "can" as the 20" planer will fill up a little one quickly.



I have not ruled out installing the DC outside under a shed roof that runs the length of my shop and putting the output filters in the shop to save on my A/C and heat. I may lose more A/C and heat by running air outside and then back in.... Still thinking on this one.



The Clear Vue, Grizzly and Onieda are the only ones in the running at this time.



It is easy to tell that some folks just crunch numbers and other just go and do it. I am not a number cruncher, thus my original post. I understand that the duct design is a big part of it. I see this type of thing all the time in HVAC duct trunk lines and plumbing where the main line is larger so you can deliver the volume to several little lines. All makes sense, I just don't know how to calculate it. (not looking for more how to calculate it here)



For those of you who are following this thread on the edge of your seats (if you are, don't admit to it in a public forum :0) ) I don't think I would like MDF in my DC. I don't think I want to get the DC from one source and need extra stuff from another source. I would like for the "system" to be designed to work together. I like getting one shipment and installing it. I have a lot of green in my shop. I like the color white on a lathe. I don't need to see the dirt going down the drain.



I will post what is ordered. I should know later next week or the first of the following.

[Andy Hoyt]

ed, yOu've answered your Own quest. The Big O.

It's the Only way to gO

You're in a mild climate and in the design stages. Put it outside in a shed. Insulate the shed. Mount it on a wall that's not common to the shop.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Good Luck Ed!

Whatever you decide, trust me, once you have a Cyclone, you will be very happy with it, one of the few times in life when "Boy it REALLY sucks" is a good thing ;):D

Cheers!

[Ed Lang]

Andy!


There is Only Oneway to make this happen and allOw this thread tO end.

I'll be calling On Tuesday. Oh this sucks:)

Pictures tO fOllOw when it gets here.

I like the idea of mounting it outside and building walls around it. I will give this more thought.

[Andy Hoyt]

Ed. I'm attaching a photo of my cyclone installation. Building a shed for mine was not an option, so I built a closet for it. The interior dimensions are only 29" deep by 79" wide. So your shed doesn't neccessairily have to be huge, unless it will do double duty for something else, like your air compressor. My compressor is noisier than my cyclone!

Had I been able to steal more space from the shop I'd have added another 6" to both. The door is standard 3068 (36" wide), but should have gone with anything wider such as a 3668 (42" wide) because that barrel just squeeze through. Also should have moved the door about 6" to the left.

But it works great.

Also attaching a picture of my homemade barrel tilter for ease in getting the chips out of the barrel and into a trash bag. Works pretty well. Actually it's the tilter that makes the barrel tough to get through the door.

The Big O now offers (didn't when I coughed up the bucks) a device that allows you to put a trash bag in the barrel and then let the DC fill it up. My concern here, especially if you opt for a 55 gallon barrel as I did, is that the bag could be too heavy or too tight to easily remove. You'd have to ask the folks at O more about that feature.

That's it, gonna go lurk elsewhere

[David Less]

I would like to chime in here on DC's in general. Most people realy do not understand there real significance of a cyclone (at one point my self included) until they purchace a bag type system. That significance is the amount of dust separation from the exiting air a cyclone can produce. Such that Bill P's sight trys to explain. The more efficient separators have better air/dust separation as evident by the previous photos. After using a conventional DC with canister I've come to appreciate why a cylone is so important. My canister is always clogging up causing the lost of precious CFM, ie dust collection. The better cyclones, such as Bill P's design offer very high dust to air separation with means around 95+ % efficienties. The cheeper or poorly designed cyclones do not separate the dust as well causing plugged filters thus producing a loss of CFM.

My $.02

David

[Jim Becker]

Ed, I did the closet similar to Andy, but would have done the outside installation had it been feasable for my shop. (Grading prevents it) Either way, you can get nice sonic isolation. BTW, I find the 55 gallon fiber drum quite manageable for emptying. Unfortunately, you can't use the fiber drum if you do the outdoor installation, so be sure to plan for easy access, and, perhaps, the use of a drum caster system.

[Ed Lang]

I would like to hear from any Grizzly cyclone users or anyone who knows of a user with one.

[Bob Dodge]

Ed,

I'm presently designing a duct-network, for a guy who has the new Grizzly cyclone. If you like, I'll have him contact you.

Bob

[Bill Pentz]

I got scolded for hiding this on the end of another thread, so made the requested changes and moved it to its own new thread. "Dust Collection - my latest two cents worth" Thanks. Bill

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Great post Bill, and I can atest to the way Bill's design works, it works VERY well.

Cheers!

[Charlie Jones]

I am very happy with my Clear-Vue. I have been using it for about 5 months now and it has preformed perfectly.

[Ed Lang]

I have decided on the ClearVue system. I think the little extra work I will need to do will net me the best cyclone sytem I can get.

Thank you everyone for assisting me in this..... what a process to get to a decision.

[Jim O'Dell]

I have decided on the ClearVue system. I think the little extra work I will need to do will net me the best cyclone sytem I can get.

Thank you everyone for assisting me in this..... what a process to get to a decision.

Sounds like you based your decision a lot like I did. Especially with the current sales price, really hard to beat. I'll work on a little list to PM you, hopefully later today. Little things I found I needed. Jim

[Ed Lang]

Thank you Jim!


If anyone else who has or has helped install a ClearVue system has any comments, either PM, email or post the suggestions.

I will document as best as I can when installing mine.

I will also be upgrading my esisting 4" ports on most of my machines to 6" ports and building some kind of hood for my lathe.

[Dick Heifner]

Anybody have a link to Clear-Vue?
Thanks, Dick

[Jim O'Dell]

Anybody have a link to Clear-Vue?
Thanks, Dick


Here you go,Dick: http://clearvuecyclones.com/