What bit to make dutch or cove lap siding?

[Anthony Whitesell]

Pretty simple question for the residents experts here. What bit to make dutch or cove lap siding?

http://www.buffalo-lumber.com/dutch-lap-siding.htm

[Jerry Miner]

What machine do you want to run it on (molder, shaper, router...?)

Panel-raising bit would come close. I've run similar stuff on a shaper, but a molder would be my preferred machine.

[Anthony Whitesell]

For the number I have to do, I was thinking router table.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm thinking a cove panel raising cutter comes closest for the top cut.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I had to make something that look close to that & to get the long tongue on the cove I removed the bearing & ground off the post to get the tongue. Did it in a few passes on a router table.

[Anthony Whitesell]

My first three thoughts were:

1) From MLCS, Part number #8681
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/raised_panel_router_bits2.html

2) From MLCS, Part number #8687
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/raised_panel_router_bits1.html

3) Use the tablesaw with a cove cutting jig.


Keep in mind I am looking to do this on at least 192 linear feet of wood.

[Peter Kelly]

Factoring in waste you'd need over 200' so I wouldn't even consider a router table and a coving jig on the saw only allows for 1/8" or so at a pass so it'd take many, many passes to get there.

Aren't there any millwork shops in NH that carry novelty siding?

[Jay Jolliffe]

I'd go with # 2 as long as your router table will take that big of bit....

[Anthony Whitesell]

There are but apparently there is a premium charge for running the in-house molding machine when compared to the cost of:

(a) buying 4s and edging it myself

(b) buying rough and planing and edging it myself

(c) using the lumber I have milled myself and planing and edging it myself.

I'm afraid my router won't like to run the horizontal panel bit as the motor is only 2 1/4 HP (Bosch 1617EVS). I have not used a vertical panel bit (#1), bit supposedly they need less HP because the diameter is not as large.

Good catch that the tablesaw cove jig will only remove the height of the carbide (or less) per pass. To remove all of the material, would be 3 passes minimum (3/4" to 3/8")

I have found these three options. Does anyone know of any others?

[Anthony Whitesell]

. . . . . .

[Peter Kelly]

If you can drive over to NY, Ghent Wood Products stocks Novely siding: http://ghentwoodproducts.com/price-lists-ghentwoodproducts/siding-novelty.php

[Anthony Whitesell]

That would solve pricing #1 and #2. Near to me they are asking $0.75/lin ft for rough 1x8x8'. That price comes out to $0.85/lin ft plus gas.

Still doesn't beat #3 and the more than 600 bdft of lumber that cost me less than $25 plus some sweat (ok, so a lot of sweat).

[Rod Sheridan]

315808

The above knife should do the trick.............Rod.

[Anthony Whitesell]

315808

The above knife should do the trick.............Rod.

Sorry. No access to a shaper. Not to mention that one doesn't look quite right.

[Curt Harms]

I just ran an 8' oak strip cutting a edge profile on a router table. Every place I paused to reset my grip there's a bump. This is not an issue with short stock, it is with long stock. I had one feather board, should have had at least two, one horizontal and one vertical. Maybe 4 feather boards - one vertical and one horizontal either side of the cutter. One piece wasn't too bad to sand out the bumps but close to 200 L.F.? You'd want a way to feed the entire length without pausing if possible. I think I understand why people usually have stock feeders on shapers.

[Anthony Whitesell]

The current plan is to build a 4'x4' tool shed which would require about 200lf but in 4ft increments. So I don't think stopping will be an issue. If I was to attempt this for a full size 8'x12' shed, there would be way more L.F. and pieces in the 8 to 12 ft range (or perhaps 6 to 8 foot lengths). Maybe I would need to scrounge up a shaper, but where would I put it...

[lowell holmes]

Good Luck :)

Your going to have a mess trying to do that moulding with a router. I've cut cove on my table saw, but I wouldn't want to tackle that large of a project.

The stresses that cove cutting on a table saw puts on the saw blade is substantial and a bit un-nerving. It requires several passes to achieve the cove.

I have a manual feed shaper. The shaper cutter (bit) would probably be a $150 - $200 investment. I think you will be money ahead by just buying the siding.

[Peter Kelly]

If you're not needing to match existing siding could you not make channel rustic instead? Could probably get away with a few passes using a dado set.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Good Luck :)

Your going to have a mess trying to do that moulding with a router.

A mess in what regard? It is not going to come out looking nice, or is going to make a lots of sawdust?


The shaper cutter (bit) would probably be a $150 - $200 investment. I think you will be money ahead by just buying the siding.

You made me curious. The shaper bit by Amana is about $100 shipped. The bit for the router is only $30. I realize there is a difference in design and quality.

[Rod Sheridan]

Sorry. No access to a shaper. Not to mention that one doesn't look quite right.

Sorry, missed the part about the "bit".

I've used that knife for a very similar cove profile on baseboard.

Regards, Rod.

[lowell holmes]

A mess in what regard? It is not going to come out looking nice, or is going to make a lots of sawdust?



You made me curious. The shaper bit by Amana is about $100 shipped. The bit for the router is only $30. I realize there is a difference in design and quality.

How big is the board that you propose to mold. For talking purposes, lets say it's 8' long. So you might end up with 1X8X96" to shape. The board will likely have warp and bow in it, so it must be flattened in order to run a router over it. Will the 96" long board be on a work bench, saw horses, or some other device? Trying to flatten the board and run a router over it and then do this 15 or 20 times. That is going to be a tedious job and when you have a 3 hp router in your hand. a scary job.

If the router is in a table or you are using a shaper, extensions to the shaper table will be needed so you can lay a 96" long board and run it face down, over the cutter while flattening the board. I've built several 3068 entrance doors using my shaper to mould the edges. I'm here to tell you, passing your hands within an inch of the cutters is terrifying. All kind of push sticks and feather boards are required. Occasionally, a knot might explode, sawdust is every where. and this is the 12th board you've run, and about that time the phone rings. Like I say, it can be done, but will be a mess.:)

Good Luck

[Anthony Whitesell]

How big is the board that you propose to mold. For talking purposes, lets say it's 8' long. So you might end up with 1X8X96" to shape. The board will likely have warp and bow in it, so it must be flattened in order to run a router over it. Will the 96" long board be on a work bench, saw horses, or some other device? Trying to flatten the board and run a router over it and then do this 15 or 20 times. That is going to be a tedious job and when you have a 3 hp router in your hand. a scary job.

If the router is in a table or you are using a shaper, extensions to the shaper table will be needed so you can lay a 96" long board and run it face down, over the cutter while flattening the board. I've built several 3068 entrance doors using my shaper to mould the edges. I'm here to tell you, passing your hands within an inch of the cutters is terrifying. All kind of push sticks and feather boards are required. Occasionally, a knot might explode, sawdust is every where. and this is the 12th board you've run, and about that time the phone rings. Like I say, it can be done, but will be a mess.:)

Good Luck

If you are getting your fingers within an inch of the bit, then something is wrong with the setup. There should not be any reason to get fingers that close to a bit or blade.

I would be using a router table with a fence, featherboards, and dual port dust collection (base and fence). Other than managing the jointing, planing, and shaping of 50 boards there shouldn't be much of a mess. I don't have a lot of time or money. But I have a lot more time than money.

[Peter Kelly]

You'll smoke that small Bosch router trying to shape 50 boards with that profile.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Am I better off with the horizontal version? The Bosch router is only 2 1/4 HP.

[Peter Kelly]

A vertical panel-raising cutter might work for a few boards but the cut quality won't be good and you'll probably ruin the router.

The stated "2 1/4" hp won't likely be enough power to make a horizontal panel bit work.

[lowell holmes]

Anthony, I went back and looked at the site you showed at first. After reading the site, I realize that the siding you are interested in is 105 siding. It is commonly available in pine and maybe fir. I think I've seen it in cedar. I'm sure you can find it in the borgs. You my have to shop to find the cedar 105 siding.

[Anthony Whitesell]

If it was internal woodwork (such as trim or wainscoting) I would worry more about finish. I think how little roughness there might be would be more than acceptable for siding.

So the consensus is there is no way to make this siding in a one-man shop without ruining my tablesaw or router? What does one use to make this type of woodwork?

[Anthony Whitesell]

Neither Home Depot or Lowe's carry it. Pine, fir, cedar, or other. They stock shiplap siding in pine and bevel siding in pine and primed cedar. It may be available by special order but I did not ask. Probably the same price as the local sawmill.

[lowell holmes]

Neither Home Depot or Lowe's carry it. Pine, fir, cedar, or other. They stock shiplap siding in pine and bevel siding in pine and primed cedar. It may be available by special order but I did not ask. Probably the same price as the local sawmill.

I googled 105 siding New Hampshire. There were several sources, but it all seemed to be Eastern white Pine.

[Peter Kelly]

So the consensus is there is no way to make this siding in a one-man shop without ruining my tablesaw or router? What does one use to make this type of woodwork?Typically a through-feed molder or sticker. Short runs can also be done on a spindle shaper with a power feed though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRz5OpXEfUU

[rudy de haas]

Since I've recently become a shaper user I feel compelled to suggest that you're not going to do this easily using a router (you can, of course, particularly with a nice soft wood like cedar and a 3.25HGP router but don't try it on hickory or jatoba). If your putative shaper came with a pin/knives set like King's KW-091 you could probably do this in one pass. Using something like grizzly's C2069 (or C2078) on a first pass gives you the nice curve you need at 1.5 inches - and a small rabbetter like their C2030 series would let you give that a 1/4 inch square tongue. So get the height set-up right and two easy passes get you done.

[lowell holmes]

Since I've recently become a shaper user I feel compelled to suggest that you're not going to do this easily using a router (you can, of course, particularly with a nice soft wood like cedar and a 3.25HGP router but don't try it on hickory or jatoba). If your putative shaper came with a pin/knives set like King's KW-091 you could probably do this in one pass. Using something like grizzly's C2069 (or C2078) on a first pass gives you the nice curve you need at 1.5 inches - and a small rabbetter like their C2030 series would let you give that a 1/4 inch square tongue. So get the height set-up right and two easy passes get you done.

315860

Gentlemen,

This shaper is similar to mine. My cabinet looks different, but the machine shown above the stand is basically what I have. The issue is that the hole in the table is smaller than the shaper cutters you have shown, so to use this machine, the cutter would have to be above the table. This would require a plywood sheet be fastened to the steel top with a hole in it to accommodate the cutter. An 8"X3/4"X 120" (or longer) board will have to be fed across the cutter, holding the cupping and bow flat on the board. I suggest that the table will be extended 36" on both sides. The plywood sheet would probably be 72" long.

Then the the stock would be fed past the cutter while holding the cupping, twisting, and bowing flat to the table surface. I just don't see that is feasible.

I do have a vertical panel cutter that could closely emulate the shape you're looking for.The board could be held against the cutter with feather boards. It would be difficult to hold board I described absolutely firmly enough to eliminate twist, bow and irregular shape.

I've built several raised panel entrance doors using the techniques described. A board that is 6"X 1 3/4" x 82" is much stiffer than board we are describing, but I still ruined more than one board.

I just don't see making siding with such a setup. A large shaper with a 96" long table and power feeder would do the job, but a shaper table like shown here is not much better than a router table.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm not sure about your lumber, but when I have a freshly jointed and planed board there isn't any cup, bow or twist in it. One trick to routing bowed or rounded stock on a router table is to use a shorter fence not a longer one. This is analogous to using a point fence while resawing on a bandsaw instead of full length fence.

I was wondering how much better a shaper would be over a router table. I found several bits for each but they are all nearly the same size (within 1/2"OD). From the post above, it looks like the big boys use a planer with molding knives. Even so, I do not think the life expectancy of the router bit, shaper bit, or molding knife is different enough to solely determine which machine is the best to use.

The original question is what the options were to cut that profile. It appears all the options have been explored.

[M Toupin]

I do not think the life expectancy of the router bit, shaper bit, or molding knife is different enough to solely determine which machine is the best to use.

A mid level shaper cutter will far outlast even a good quality router bit every day of the week, there's just no comparison. Not to mention a mid-sized (AKA Delta HD or PM 26/27 size) shaper with a feeder will make your siding in two passes, one for the cove and one for the rabbit. And it'll be consistent which is all but impossible hand feeding a router table. And on material handling, with the shaper you're looking at handing your 50 boards at least twice, once for each edge profile. A router is going to take 3-4 passes for the cove and at least anther for the rabbit, maybe two. So you're looking at handling each board at least 4, maybe 6 times. That's 200-300 times you'll have to handle those boards! I get trying to save money, but sometimes it's false economy. Been there, done that says the guy who made 800lf of T&G from 2"X6" with a table saw and dado set. It worked... but cost me burning up TS arbor and motor. In the end it would have cost just as much to buy T&G not to mention 2 full days of my time standing in front of a TS shoving 8 foot boards through it 3 times each.

On the other hand, you seem to have convinced yourself to try it so have at it and let us know what you think when you're done.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Anthony Whitesell;2432198]I'm not sure about your lumber, but when I have a freshly jointed and planed board there isn't any cup, bow or twist in it.

If you are going to joint and plane the siding, you will be starting with 5/4 stock. I wonder where you will find 5/4 western red cedar.

There would probably be other options if you posted in the neanderthal group.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Access to 5/4 western cedar is not the issue. Access to western cedar logs is. My mill can make whatever thickness I need. Being in the northeast, it will be made of Eastern White Pine from my own logs and mill as alluded to earlier. Due to the linear feet required, I will only be shaping pieces that are clear in the vicinity of the cove cutter in an effort to increase the life expectancy of the bit.

[lowell holmes]

Anthony,
You have thought it out. I am sure you will do a great job of it.

Have fun.

[Bruce Wrenn]

A Sears molding cutter on a radial arm saw would be my choice. Build an elevated table, so you could turn saw so cutter was horizontal. and on the bottom as you pass stock over it. Use 1" round nose cutters. The rabbet could be done on same set up using square nose cutter. A couple hold down, and some good chip collection, and you are good to go.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Funny you mention using a RAS. I went searching CL for a shaper, nothing currently available other than older not so good ones, I saw a RAS with a moulding head.

[Curt Harms]

A Sears molding cutter on a radial arm saw would be my choice. Build an elevated table, so you could turn saw so cutter was horizontal. and on the bottom as you pass stock over it. Use 1" round nose cutters. The rabbet could be done on same set up using square nose cutter. A couple hold down, and some good chip collection, and you are good to go.

That may work. I still have a Craftsman molding head, haven't used it since I got the router table. Corobcutters.com sells heads and knives. They sell a panel raising cutter but it isn't a cove. Would they custom grind a set for reasonable $?
http://corobcutters.com/391-58panelraisingmoldingknife.aspx

[lowell holmes]

I have one also, but it has never been on a saw. It terrifies me. :confused:

[Phil Thien]

I have one also, but it has never been on a saw. It terrifies me. :confused:

Yeah but a lot of guys use them, I think they can be used safely.

Here is another source:

http://www.wmooreprofiles.com/c-1053-corob-cutter-heads.aspx

And they make custom knives. May want to contact them and see if they have something adaptable.

[Britt Lifsey]

I have one also, but it has never been on a saw. It terrifies me. :confused:

For that same reason, the last time I used mine was for rails and stiles on my kitchen cabinet doors in 1990. It worked OK but I always felt like I was standing in front of a Cessna 172 waiting for it to take off a cut me into a million pieces with the prop...

[Anthony Whitesell]

You don't hear me disagreeing or looking on CL for a RAS.

[Curt Harms]

For that same reason, the last time I used mine was for rails and stiles on my kitchen cabinet doors in 1990. It worked OK but I always felt like I was standing in front of a Cessna 172 waiting for it to take off a cut me into a million pieces with the prop...

They're not the quietest things ever :p.

[Bruce Wrenn]

For that same reason, the last time I used mine was for rails and stiles on my kitchen cabinet doors in 1990. It worked OK but I always felt like I was standing in front of a Cessna 172 waiting for it to take off a cut me into a million pieces with the prop...Work next to a Powermatic 60" planer with straight knives, and your molding head will sound like a kitten purring.