Felder PCS - next gen saw stoppage?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, any other changes for the lower model Felder sliding tablesaws for 2021? When does the 2021 catalog get released?

Pat, no major changes that I am aware of. Ditto for the catalog. Most of the energy that I have seen is either going into the advanced machinery lines or into bringing more Hammer machines. The mid-range standard machines seem pretty "solid" as far how they fit the market, so I don't sense any major impetus from Austria to be changing things up.

Erik

[Alan Lightstone]

Ok. As most people know here, I'm a tremendous advocate for technology to allow you to keep your digits intact, after making a mistake on your tablesaw. And have put my money where my mouth is in buying two SawStops. And have a shop full of Felder machines. So serious loyalty to both brands. And I'm thrilled that another company is employing technology to make tablesaws safer.

That being said, $10K addition in cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say a $200 Forrest blade and $80 SawStop cartridge gets destroyed by triggering it. Rinse, repeat 36 times, and the technologies are comparable in cost.

Has anyone in the World triggered a SawStop 36 times? If so, they have no business using a tablesaw.

Just sayin, who's gonna buy this?????

[Rod Sheridan]

Someone who wants a slider that takes a large blade..............Regards, Rod.

[Jamie Buxton]

Maybe it is that Felder thinks they're not going to sell very many of these things. They have development costs which they can only spread over a small number of units, so the unit cost gets very big.

[Adam Herman]

Maybe it is that Felder thinks they're not going to sell very many of these things. They have development costs which they can only spread over a small number of units, so the unit cost gets very big.

maybe it does not fit in the smaller machines?
seems like you would pick your volume machines to roll out something new and spread the development cost. I don't know what they sell the most of though.

[Steve Demuth]

Probably already mentioned, but the Preventive Contact System DOES NOT destroy the blade and allows the operator to reset the system in seconds. The technology involves industrial magnets that flip polarity when triggered, causing the saw unit to drop below the cast iron table. This system was developed in conjunction with the University of Vienna and patented by Felder.

I have always been mystified as to why the Sawstop design uses destructive technology to stop the blade. Given the speed of detection and action, he could obviously just had the blade retract and brake the motor electrically. Looks like Felder got it right.

More interesting is the zero-touch detection. Would like to know more about that.

[Joe Jensen]

maybe it does not fit in the smaller machines?
seems like you would pick your volume machines to roll out something new and spread the development cost. I don't know what they sell the most of though.

I'd think most of these over $30,000 sliding saws are going into commercial shops. For shops that use a big slider as a part of the workflow, a sawstop is not a replacement. I'd think liability mitigation would be the motivation and once insurance companies become aware the insurance discounts for having one would be meaningful. I would assume they did some market research and concluded that enough would pay $10,000 incremental to get a return on investment. As more alternatives hit the market the price would undoubtedly drop.

[Erik Loza]

Guys, Germany alone is something like 30% of Felder's market. Over there, huge sliders with big blades and cutting software are still a big thing. New construction is still hip-and valley rafters out of solid lumber, etc. None of those shops would take a cabinet saw if you gave it to them. Here in the states, it's 99% sheet goods, so we have nested routers and the slider (if one) is "the old machine they held onto". So, naturally, Felder KG will cater to their biggest market, first.

I was talking to a millshop recently that actually could have used a huge slider. They wanted 2-way tilt, which is another premium feature, but otherwise wanted as basic a machine as possible. No software, no bells or whistles. The owner just couldn't get his head around the fact that he needed to step up to a top-of-the-line model to get specialized features. You got to pay to play. When my wife and I were shopping for her new Mini Cooper, there were a few features I wanted that were part of a some package, of which I wanted none of the rest of those options. But, to get the one or two features I wanted, you had to step up. Complain if you like but please don't tell me you can't understand this, LOL.

Erik

[Dave Sabo]

Erik - can’t you special order a MINI built any way you’d like?

It’s often possible , dealers hate it though. I know it’s still possible at Volvo because I did it last year. More $$$, had to wait. Also got the hard sell that it wasn’t possible - and then why don’t you take this one or that one, but it was doable.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, most vehicle manufacturers do not offer a la carté options anymore other than maybe at the top end of the brands in the market. I'm honestly surprised that Volvo would still entertain that. (I still factory order vehicles anyway) For the tools we all like to talk about, Felder's business model has offered more customization that is commonly available, IMHO. But yes, that can translate into a longer wait. When I recently had a conversation with Sam Blasco about something, it was clear that "the common package" would result in a tool in the shop much faster than ordering something that had to be built.

[Mike Henderson]

Very interesting technology but the price??? I hope they can downsize it to a cabinet saw. It would be great if we had multiple companies with multiple technologies.

Someone complained that SawStop didn't do something like this. But remember that Sawstop was a pioneer - the technology was developed many years ago. Once the idea is out there smart people start coming up with better ideas.

Mike

[Erik Loza]

Erik - can’t you special order a MINI built any way you’d like?

Dave, they might imply that but that was not our experience. If you wanted Bluetooth stereo, for example, you had get the whole backup camera package. I really doubt there is any truly a-la-carte vehicle out there. Each vehicle would then technically be a custom build, which kills your economy-of-scale in manufacturing costs and ergo, your margin. It's the same way in the machinery industry.

When I recently had a conversation with Sam Blasco about something, it was clear that "the common package" would result in a tool in the shop much faster than ordering something that had to be built.

I always felt that they had a very smart sales model that way. Based on some of the conversations happening on our side, I sense that 2021 might create a sort of paradigm shift for Felder USA as far how/what we stock here in the US. Hopefully tighten up lead times on the smaller machines and not so much inventory of machines that we only sell a handful of each year.

Very interesting technology but the price??? I hope they can downsize it to a cabinet saw. It would be great if we had multiple companies with multiple technologies. Someone complained that SawStop didn't do something like this. But remember that Sawstop was a pioneer - the technology was developed many years ago. Once the idea is out there smart people start coming up with better ideas.

Mike

Mike, remember that there was a legitimate alternative option (the Bosch Reaxx) but that other company litigated them out of the market. So, if someone wants to point a finger, you know who to point it at. As far as the PCS system coming into smaller saws, I wouldn't hold my breath. It's an expensive and complicated system (for example, it requires a separate main saw group and a separate scoring group, which are all one component group in 99% of sliders). My guess is that even if we could offer it on an entry level slider, it would make the machine so huge that it would defeat the purpose. But that's just my gut reaction.

Erik

[Rod Sheridan]

SawStop is for a 10 inch blade in an inexpensive saw, PCS is for. 16 inch blade in a commercial saw.

SS is a great system, if they built a system strong enough to drop the blade and motor without losing accuracy, the saw would be triple the weight Nd four times the cost.

Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Erik, I think that your employer would do well to adopt and stock some "thoughtfully optioned" models to help with lead times from order to delivery which equals cash flow for them and commissions for you. Custom order is great for the folks who really need that, but I think in North America, availability could improve nicely that way, COVID or no COVID.

And you really do want a backup camera...best thing since sliced bread.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, remember that there was a legitimate alternative option (the Bosch Reaxx) but that other company litigated them out of the market. So, if someone wants to point a finger, you know who to point it at. As far as the PCS system coming into smaller saws, I wouldn't hold my breath. It's an expensive and complicated system (for example, it requires a separate main saw group and a separate scoring group, which are all one component group in 99% of sliders). My guess is that even if we could offer it on an entry level slider, it would make the machine so huge that it would defeat the purpose. But that's just my gut reaction.

Erik

Note that I said that SawStop was a pioneer in the technology. Bosch didn't come along for a good many years. SawStop sued them for patent infringement and prevailed in court. I see nothing wrong with asserting your valid patents.

Mike