California to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2035

[Doug Garson]

While there are no power plants using gasoline, there are power plants using natural gas, coal, and oil which are all GHG producers. Nuclear does not produce GHG but produces a lot of other junk we cannot dispose of. Solar panels take as much energy to produce as they take to manufacture. Hydro and wind are about it. But until 100% of electricity is produced by hydro and wind, the production of electricity produces GHG (or potentially worse). Also do not forget to compare GHG per mile not per "fill up" as there is not a vehicle with more miles per fill up on electric than on gasoline.

Yes, the majority of power generated in the US generates GHGs unlike Canada where I live where over 80% of electricity is from non GHG sources but even if you charge an EV from the grid you still generate fewer GHG than an ICE vehicle and as the grid becomes greener it gets even better. Have a look at this video, he does a good job of explaining it and debunking some of the myths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G67i_Z8ukD4

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmu...even%20higher.

[Brian Elfert]

Yes, the majority of power generated in the US generates GHGs unlike Canada where I live where over 80% of electricity is from non GHG sources but even if you charge an EV from the grid you still generate fewer GHG than an ICE vehicle and as the grid becomes greener it gets even better. Have a look at this video, he does a good job of explaining it and debunking some of the myths.

A good share of Canada's electricity comes from hydroelectric. Canada is lucky to have the proper geography to produce a lot of hydroelectric power. It also helps that Canada has far fewer residents than the USA so electric demand is also far less.

The USA long ago installed hydroelectric in the places it makes the most sense. We just don't have enough sites for hydroelectric to get a lot of our power from hydroelectric. A guy I know moved to Tennessee. He specialized in solar installation. Solar is very tiny there because electricity is cheap due to all the hydroelectric.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Yes, the majority of power generated in the US generates GHGs unlike Canada where I live where over 80% of electricity is from non GHG sources but even if you charge an EV from the grid you still generate fewer GHG than an ICE vehicle and as the grid becomes greener it gets even better. Have a look at this video, he does a good job of explaining it and debunking some of the myths.

What I have been reading is based on per tank and per charge. These links to not change that. I would have to charge a Tesla 2 1/2 times to get the mileage from one tank of gasoline. The next nearest mileage per charge vehicle is half of Tesla, making it 5 charges per tank. Based on the numbers I have found, puts GHG per mile higher for EV.

[Doug Garson]

What I have been reading is based on per tank and per charge. These links to not change that. I would have to charge a Tesla 2 1/2 times to get the mileage from one tank of gasoline. The next nearest mileage per charge vehicle is half of Tesla, making it 5 charges per tank. Based on the numbers I have found, puts GHG per mile higher for EV.

I'm assuming you didn't look at the links I provided, here's a quote from the second link "One of the questions I’m most frequently asked about electric vehicles (EV) is: “Are they really a cleaner option?” While it’s obvious that a fully-electric vehicle eliminates tailpipe emissions, people often wonder about the global warming emissions from generating the electricity to charge an EV. The latest data affirms that driving on electricity produces significantly fewer emissions than using gasoline and is getting better over time.Electricity power plant emissions data for 2018 has just been released and we’ve crunched the latest numbers. Based on where EVs have been sold, driving the average EV produces global warming pollution equal to a gasoline vehicle that gets 88 miles per gallon (mpg) fuel economy. That’s significantly better than the most efficient gasoline car (58 mpg) and far cleaner than the average new gasoline car (31 mpg) or truck (21 mpg) sold in the US. And our estimate for EV emissions is almost 10 percent lower than our previous estimate two years ago. Now 94 percent of people in the US live where driving an EV produces less emissions than using a 50 mpg gasoline car."
Mileage per charge is meaningless, what counts is GHG emissions per mile driven.
Please provide a link to the site you say claims higher GHG per mile for electric vehicles vs ICE vehicles, I promise I will look at it. Note that the data quoted is two years old so there is no doubt that based current data it is even better.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm assuming you didn't look at the links I provided,

Sorry, you would be incorrect. I did look at them.

Mileage per charge is meaningless, what counts is GHG emissions per mile driven.

Mileage per charge is not necessarily meaningless. But more correct is misleading as they often compare per change and per tank which result in substanitally different mileage per "fill up" capacities thus bias the GHG calculations. Absolutely, GHG will be less to charge a car that only goes 100 miles on a charge versus a gasoline power car that goes 500 miles on a tank.
GHG per mile driven is an equal basis as the normalizing to equal mileage (1 tank of gas, 2 1/2 Tesla charges, or 5 charges of second place-don't recall brand just noted it was 1/2 of Tesla)

Mileage per charge is meaningless, what counts is GHG emissions per mile driven.
Please provide a link to the site you say claims higher GHG per mile for electric vehicles vs ICE vehicles, I promise I will look at it. Note that the data quoted is two years old so there is no doubt that based current data it is even better.

I stopped looking into this as it doesn't fit my work style. Job sites don't have a place to charge thus I would be stranded 1/2 way (or more) from home on the ride home. No, I can't move closer as the job sites change. At $150+ per hour to fix my car, I could not afford to pay some to fix an EV when I can fix my gas powered car for $0.
I will see if I have the links, and they are probably older than 2018. I wonder how many watts it takes to fully charge a Tesla. You could easily calculate the GHG from the required reported numbers from your local electric supplier.

[Doug Garson]

Sorry, you would be incorrect. I did look at them.

Mileage per charge is not necessarily meaningless. But more correct is misleading as they often compare per change and per tank which result in substanitally different mileage per "fill up" capacities thus bias the GHG calculations. Absolutely, GHG will be less to charge a car that only goes 100 miles on a charge versus a gasoline power car that goes 500 miles on a tank.
GHG per mile driven is an equal basis as the normalizing to equal mileage (1 tank of gas, 2 1/2 Tesla charges, or 5 charges of second place-don't recall brand just noted it was 1/2 of Tesla)


I stopped looking into this as it doesn't fit my work style. Job sites don't have a place to charge thus I would be stranded 1/2 way (or more) from home on the ride home. No, I can't move closer as the job sites change. At $150+ per hour to fix my car, I could not afford to pay some to fix an EV when I can fix my gas powered car for $0.
I will see if I have the links, and they are probably older than 2018. I wonder how many watts it takes to fully charge a Tesla. You could easily calculate the GHG from the required reported numbers from your local electric supplier.

If by mileage per charge you mean range then yes range is meaningful but there is no correlation between range and GHG emissions per mile driven. I've never heard anyone compare per charge to per tank when talking about GHG emissions. Range of EV is an issue which means currently an EV is not practical for every case (like yours) but range is primarily affected by battery technology and battery technology is constantly improving as is the availability of charging stations. On the other hand, in an ICE vehicle's GHG emissions is primarily dependent on gas mileage, and realistically current ICE technology is pretty mature and it is unlikely future ICE vehicles will have much better numbers than today.
Maintenance is a separate issue from GHG emissions. Actually, many studies have shown over 5 or 10 years an EV while more expensive to purchase, is less expensive to purchase, maintain and operate than ICE vehicles. I'm curious, what repair can you make on your gas car for $0? Last time I checked, spark plugs, oil, filters, transmission fluid, brake pads etc. still cost money to buy.
Like to see your links, bear in mind the older they are the less relevant they are as technology is constantly improving especially newer technologies like EVs.

[Anthony Whitesell]

If by mileage per charge you mean range then yes range is meaningful but there is no correlation between range and GHG emissions per mile driven. I've never heard anyone compare per charge to per tank when talking about GHG emissions.

Not sure what correlation you are speaking. Perhaps normalization is a better word. When reviewing the data, I found out it is all they were talking or comparing was GHG emissions per "fill up". Since the range per fillup is grossly different between ICE and EV, the resultant GHG numbers have a substantial slant to them. As I was told in college, "statistics can prove anything, you just have to find out what is be proved". In this case, the GHG emissions reported for the EV was only for 40% of the mileage for the ICE vehicle. It was reported for the charge but the charge was only 40% of the ICE range, so all of the EV GHG emissions numbers needed to be multiplied by at least 2.5.

Maintenance is a separate issue from GHG emissions. Actually, many studies have shown over 5 or 10 years an EV while more expensive to purchase, is less expensive to purchase, maintain and operate than ICE vehicles. I'm curious, what repair can you make on your gas car for $0? Last time I checked, spark plugs, oil, filters, transmission fluid, brake pads etc. still cost money to buy.

All of those listed and then some. I just did a timing system rebuild a few weeks back and paid $0 for labor.

We can skip the links, which are likely older than 2018 if we can determine the watt (or kilowatts) required to charge a Tesla from 0 to 100%. From there the GHG can be derived directly from the federally required reported emissions statistics on (my) suppliers website.

[Doug Garson]

Not sure what correlation you are speaking. Perhaps normalization is a better word. When reviewing the data, I found out it is all they were talking or comparing was GHG emissions per "fill up". Since the range per fillup is grossly different between ICE and EV, the resultant GHG numbers have a substantial slant to them. As I was told in college, "statistics can prove anything, you just have to find out what is be proved". In this case, the GHG emissions reported for the EV was only for 40% of the mileage for the ICE vehicle. It was reported for the charge but the charge was only 40% of the ICE range, so all of the EV GHG emissions numbers needed to be multiplied by at least 2.5.


All of those listed and then some. I just did a timing system rebuild a few weeks back and paid $0 for labor.

We can skip the links, which are likely older than 2018 if we can determine the watt (or kilowatts) required to charge a Tesla from 0 to 100%. From there the GHG can be derived directly from the federally required reported emissions statistics on (my) suppliers website.

Where are you seeing data that compares GHG per fill up? Please provide a link. By your logic, an ICE car with a small gas tank would have different GHG emissions than one with a large gas tank, even if both cars got the same mpg. Which one would it be bigger or smaller? Where does your 40% number come from? Here's a quote from my earlier link, I can't explain it any better "To compare the climate-changing emissions from electric vehicles to gasoline-powered cars, we analyzed all the emissions from fueling and driving both types of vehicles. For a gasoline car, that means looking at emissions from extracting crude oil from the ground, moving the oil to a refinery, making gasoline and transporting gasoline to filling stations, in addition to combustion emissions from the tailpipe.For electric vehicles, the calculation includes both power plant emissions and emissions from the production of coal, natural gas and other fuels power plants use. Our analysis relies on emissions estimates for gasoline and fuels production from Argonne National Laboratory (using the GREET2019 model) and power plant emissions data released by the US EPA. The data, released in January 2020, tallied the emissions from US power plants during 2018.
When looking at all these factors, driving the average EV is responsible for fewer global warming emissions than the average new gasoline car everywhere in the US. In some parts of the country, driving the average new gasoline car will produce 4 to 7 times the emissions of the average EV. For example, the average EV driven in upstate New York has emissions equal to a (hypothetical) 231 mpg gasoline car. And in California, a gasoline car would need to get 122 mpg to have emissions as low as the average EV."
OK, do your analysis and link your suppliers website, here's the Tesla data you asked for. "In general, battery size varies between approximately 50 KW (standard range Model 3) to 100KW (Model S). No Tesla battery is charged to its full capacity (for technical reasons) but as an estimate, you'll need to use about 50 kW of power to charge a standard range Model 3 battery fully." https://evannex.com/pages/tesla-char...ttery%20fully.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Doug Garson]

All of those listed and then some. I just did a timing system rebuild a few weeks back and paid $0 for labor.

Oh, free labor is not the same as free repairs, most of us also pay for labor these days. Been a long time since I put a wrench on a car, modern cars are way too complicated. As I said earlier, studies show fuel and repair costs for EVs are less than ICE vehicles. When you say timing system, do you mean timing chains, sprockets, gaskets etc. ? Or was it an electronic ignition system? I assume they weren't free.