Why saw the waste in dovetails vs chiselling it?

[Kevin Smira]

Thanks everyone!

I currently chop the waste almost exactly the way Mike shows it above. Thanks Mike - great tutorial and glad to know my approach is consistent with someone who actually teaches this stuff like you do.

This afternoon, I found a case where chopping the waste would not work for me - there was less than 1/8" between the wide end of my tails. Because I couldn't easily chop the waste, I reduced the number of tails to widen that gap. So I accidentally convinced myself that I do I want to be able to saw the waste occasionally.

So I'll order a KC fretsaw tonight if I can make up my mind on which one to buy. (The 5" Mark IV swivels 360 but is heavier than the 5" Mark III most people have. But the Mk III doesn't do 360.)

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Fred

I have the KC 5” MKIV with swivel and lever tension (the “top of the line 5” non titanium). I saw the waste and find it much quicker. However, as a newer hand cut dovetail woodworker, I find many of my practice boards being chopped off, shooting the end grain again and trying once more. For me, I can’t find the balance between close enough to the line without going “under” it and leaving too much waste. Practice makes perfect and select pine at the big box stores isn’t terribly expensive, so...

As a side note, make sure to order a dozen (or more) blades when you order your saw. For me in the North Alabama area, nobody sells 5 1/8” fret saw blades...so, if I snap one, I’m relegated to chopping!

[Robert Engel]

I learned to do DT's from a Frank Klausz video on drawer making (also pins first). I've done them that way for >20 years. His reason for leaving the waste is it supports the cut from the other side, make a clean endgrain result. I agree and this has been my experience, too, case in point, what Mike is describing. Some will blame it on a dull chisel, IME it will happen right off the stone.

That being said, I often will saw out the waste in hardwoods or thick TS, but only because it saves time, not because it results in a better dt.

Lately I've really like using a 7° bevelled FT rip blade to cut the tails on the TS, then I chisel out the pins by hand. REALLY speeds things up on a big job if you're not opposed to the hybrid approach ;-)

I recommend getting the Klausz video just for another perspective.

[Brian Hale]

I learned to do DT's from a Frank Klausz video on drawer making ...........

Is that the video where he says "Outside of the tree, inside of the drawer" ? That phrase has been in my head for years.....

Brian

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

Mike

Tony has shared the book title. It is on p. 81.
Simon

[Mike Henderson]

he wrote an entire book on it. The complete dovetail: handmade furniture’s signature joint

I have that book! Read it years ago. I'll go back and review it. Thanks.

Mike

[I went and reviewed Kirby's technique. I prefer mine. I think it's faster. For anyone who has the book, it's page 81 (in the first edition).]

[John C Cox]

Ah- I like this. I do know that some advocate paring chisels be ground to low angles and I know that Rob Cosman advocates going as low as 17º at least for softwoods. So you may have answered my question Mike. Perhaps paring vs chopping has more to do with the angle of the grind given your point of the durability of the edge. The harshness of striking with a mallet vs the gentle push of the hand dictates the grind which defines the action of chopping vs paring.

Dave,

It's a dance.....

You adjust the edge geometry to work with the chosen technique and your chisel in hand... But you also adjust technique to work with a known good edge geometry for the chisel in hand....

For example - if you don't know what a particular chisel likes regarding setup for chopping and your technique is pretty good - the simplest thing is to just increase the micro bevel angle (or convex grind at the tip) until the edge holds up...

It's kinda the same with paring... You can reduce the bevel until you have trouble with the edge chipping or folding for a given technique... But within that given "Technique" includes whether you pare straight across end grain or kinda try to whittle it down at an angle and also how large of a chip you take.. Cutting straight across end grain generally requires a little more bevel angle than if you can pare at an angle or pare long grain..

But the technique is also critical.. Pry or twist while paring and you just ruined the fine edge. Scrub walls or the bottom of a mortise to pop chips out and there goes the edge on your mortise chisel..

But if you can't get good results and others can with the same setup - it's worth looking at whether you are really doing things "the same"... For example - your edge is failing and theirs is not... Are you using a 2lb engineers hammer and they are using a 14oz wood mallet? Are you giving it a good hard whack and they are giving it more of a solid tap... -Are you twisting or shifting at the bottom of the cut? Are you using a straight bevel and they are using convex? Are you sharpening on diamond plates (very hard) and they are sharpening on water stones and then stropping(fairly soft)... Etc.. What is really different?

[Mike Henderson]

It occurred to me that some people reading this thread my not know why you don't make your first chop on the gauge line. The next picture demonstrates the reason.
Dovetails-056.jpg

When you chop down, the chisel opens up a "V" shaped channel in the wood. If you start on the gauge line, the back of your cut will no longer be on the gauge line but will be past it. Some people refer to this as "Bruising the line."

If you start off the gauge line, into the waste, it doesn't matter if your chisel opens up a V and is past where your put the bevel edge - as long as you're not so close that you push the gauge line back.

Once you clean up that initial cut, you can make your next cut on the gauge line and the side towards the waste will give way because it's thin.

Mike

[Edwin Santos]

Hi
I'm in the fretsaw camp. Neither way is wrong. The KC saw is a beautiful tool, a real pleasure to use.

When using the fret saw, here's a tip I got from David Barron. Orient the board so the show side (outside of the joint) is toward you when you are sawing the waste. If your cut goes errant, it will usually be on the back side, so this way the error if any, will not be visible, or at least be less visible. Of course the goal is to saw level so your cut on the back will match the cut on the front, but as the Canadians say, we're human, eh.
Edwin

[Edwin Santos]

I learned to do DT's from a Frank Klausz video on drawer making (also pins first). I've done them that way for >20 years. His reason for leaving the waste is it supports the cut from the other side, make a clean endgrain result. I agree and this has been my experience, too, case in point, what Mike is describing. Some will blame it on a dull chisel, IME it will happen right off the stone.

That being said, I often will saw out the waste in hardwoods or thick TS, but only because it saves time, not because it results in a better dt.

Lately I've really like using a 7° bevelled FT rip blade to cut the tails on the TS, then I chisel out the pins by hand. REALLY speeds things up on a big job if you're not opposed to the hybrid approach ;-)

I recommend getting the Klausz video just for another perspective.

Ever see Frank Klausz saw out the dovetail waste with a big huge bowsaw? Quite a sight. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFqY73lelq8
I took a class with him once, and over the course of it he yelled at all of us, sometimes in Hungarian. But I liked him anyway, and I certainly learned a lot.
Edwin

[Mike Cary]

I just picked up a new knew concepts fret saw. Cut one with it, chopped the other. The baseline on the sawed one was flawless the chopped one I bruised it. Chopped too close, too hard, took too big of a bite. Left just a little waste with the saw, it gave way before the wood bruised. I know this is fixed by good technique but I like idiot proofing my work when I can. It’s necessary when you’re an idiot.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Personally i find it quicker and easier to saw out the waste then to chisel it all out, only a clean up pass with the chisel from each side and done.

[Frederick Skelly]

So I ordered a Knew Concepts Mk-IV fretsaw. I went back and forth between getting the Mk-III that most of you have vs the Mk-IV. I asked KC Customer Service for advice and they emphatically recommended the heavy duty Mk-IV for dovetails. It costs $6 more than the Mk-III. The Mk-IV blade swivels 360*, which I'm not sure is as big an advantage as it sounds, but we'll see. But it is also more rigid, which I like. According to Highland Woodworking, the Mk-IV weighs in at 8oz compared to the 5 oz Mk-III. So that's a lot of extra weight, relatively speaking. Guess we'll see.

I'll post a short review after I try it out.

Fred

[Dave Zellers]

Dave,

It's a dance.....

Thanks John- I appreciate that. I'm holding back because I feel like my question falls into the realm of hi-jacking the original purpose of the thread. But I do appreciate and understand your thoughts.

[Derek Cohen]

So I ordered a Knew Concepts Mk-IV fretsaw. I went back and forth between getting the Mk-III that most of you have vs the Mk-IV. I asked KC Customer Service for advice and they emphatically recommended the heavy duty Mk-IV for dovetails. It costs $6 more than the Mk-III. The Mk-IV blade swivels 360*, which I'm not sure is as big an advantage as it sounds, but we'll see. But it is also more rigid, which I like. According to Highland Woodworking, the Mk-IV weighs in at 8oz compared to the 5 oz Mk-III. So that's a lot of extra weight, relatively speaking. Guess we'll see.

I'll post a short review after I try it out.

Fred

Hi Fred

I am sure that the new frame is a good one. Better? I do not know. The old frame is rigid enough. What is more relevant is how you use the saw. Technique trumps extreme tension.

Hold and use it like you would a dovetail saw, that is, very lightly and let the weight of the saw do the work. Be gentle - never force the cut - that will bend the blade and force it off line. The aim is to saw with the blade kept as straight as possible. Cut on the pull.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Ranck]

I have the new one (Mk-IV) and am still trying to figure out if there is something wrong with it. I have to loosen the adjustment knobs as far as they will go and the tension still pulls the blades out of the holder. I've gone back to using my coping saw for now until I can sort out if there is a manufacture flaw or if it is user error (more likely).

I do like the finish on my older (knew concepts) coping saw over the Mk-IV. The coping saw is an anodized process, the Mk-IV is too heavy paint.