Yet Another Dust Collector Thread

[Ron Selzer]

I use a Bosch jig saw with a very fine, metal-cutting blade to make cuts. It is easier than I expected.

A half inch hole to start the cut then a powered metal shear. I use a Grizzly H5503 at home and a DeWalt at work. Broke the jaw on the Grizzly at home when cutting thru a seam with 3 layers, repaired it with a set of jaws from Harbor Freight.
Just finished up hooking up 14 6" drops at work all but the floor sweep were reduced down after blast gate to hook up to machines. Used Nordfab QF ducting, good stuff. 20 hp AAF dust collector, 17" trunk line.
Like your cradle setup, looks like it will make it easier.
Good luck
Ron

[Thomas Wilson]

A half inch hole to start the cut then a powered metal shear. I use a Grizzly H5503 at home and a DeWalt at work. Broke the jaw on the Grizzly at home when cutting thru a seam with 3 layers, repaired it with a set of jaws from Harbor Freight.
Just finished up hooking up 14 6" drops at work all but the floor sweep were reduced down after blast gate to hook up to machines. Used Nordfab QF ducting, good stuff. 20 hp AAF dust collector, 17" trunk line.
Like your cradle setup, looks like it will make it easier.
Good luck
Ron

17” main is huge. I am using 6” main with 6x4x4 branches above the floor to connect to machines. I work alone so only one machine will be connected at a time. I need to keep velocity up in the main.

[Ron Selzer]

wood shop in a new high school. was installed with 6" drops 7' Above Finished Floor. I took it from there

point I was trying to make was to look into a power shear instead of using the jig saw. All appear to be the same copied off of the original Kett design. Harbor freight has the cheapest version.
Different way to do what you are doing, yet it is how all the pros I have seen in the field do it. As they say any excuse to buy a new tool
You have a very nice system started now and appears to be a nice installation job so far. definitely will top quality when you are done.
Keep in mind it takes roughly 2 4" lines to equal 1 6". 2 x (3.1416x(2x2)) = 25.1328 , 3.1416x(3x3) = 28.2744
Good luck
Ron

[Thomas Wilson]

wood shop in a new high school. was installed with 6" drops 7' Above Finished Floor. I took it from there

point I was trying to make was to look into a power shear instead of using the jig saw. All appear to be the same copied off of the original Kett design. Harbor freight has the cheapest version.
Different way to do what you are doing, yet it is how all the pros I have seen in the field do it. As they say any excuse to buy a new tool
You have a very nice system started now and appears to be a nice installation job so far. definitely will top quality when you are done.
Keep in mind it takes roughly 2 4" lines to equal 1 6". 2 x (3.1416x(2x2)) = 25.1328 , 3.1416x(3x3) = 28.2744
Good luck
Ron

Thanks, Ron. From my vast experience of cutting exactly one pipe cut so far, the allure of a new tool is not quite enough yet. The jigsaw with a fine tooth metal cutting blade method worked really well. One important safety caution about the jigsaw, the upward cut stroke of the blade throws fine metal shavings toward your face. Goggles that fit closely to your face are necessary.

Your advice about maintaining flow area is well taken for conventional dust collectors that develop static pressure in the 10-12 inch of water range. The Oneida Smart Gorilla that I have is variable speed and develops 23 inches static pressure. It can draw 900 CFM through a 4” port. This volume of flow is good for both dust and chip collection. Of course two 4” ports draw even more but the point is that Oneida has heard Bill Pentz about dust collection versus chip collection. Pentz advocates 800 CFM for dust collection. The Smart Gorilla delivers that through 4” ports which is why I bought it. In contrast, Pentz’s designs implemented by ClearVue to achieve similar flow utilizes larger impellers, bigger ducts, and enlarged ports on machines. One could argue that that the “Smart” part of the Oneida design is that the VFD (variable frequency drive and the digital flow controls) is cheaper than larger ducts and ports. Long term reliability is still an unknown for the VFD but the Smart design has been out for a few years without a lot of issues reported.

One final point about higher static pressures is the potential for collapsing the pipe. Thin wall HVAC would definitely collapse. I am installing a new system so I chose heavy duty Nordfab Quick Fit. If you (general member of Sawmill Creek) have an existing system with lower rated duct, it might not be cost effective to replace it.

[Kevin Jenness]

One suggestion I would make is to hang the cyclone as high as possible on the wall. The longer the drop to the dust bin the more margin you have against clogging the filters in case of an accidental overfill of the bin.

[Ron Selzer]

Nordfab Quick Fit is nice pipe to work with, I used the power shears to cut it and don't have to worry about metal chips flying. Only problem with it was Grainger who we bought all the pipe and fittings off of would not quote any custom wyes. So ended up buying 6x6x6 then adding 6x4 reducers, then 3d printing 4x1 1/2, 4x2. 4x 2 1/2 reducers to get to needed hose size. Really like how easy it is to reconfigure as changes were made and will be made in the future.
Worked with vfd's last 30 yrs. or so and they have are smaller, way less expensive and newer ones seem to really last.
you definitely are installing a top-quality system
Ron

[Thomas Wilson]

Nordfab Quick Fit is nice pipe to work with, I used the power shears to cut it and don't have to worry about metal chips flying. Only problem with it was Grainger who we bought all the pipe and fittings off of would not quote any custom wyes. So ended up buying 6x6x6 then adding 6x4 reducers, then 3d printing 4x1 1/2, 4x2. 4x 2 1/2 reducers to get to needed hose size. Really like how easy it is to reconfigure as changes were made and will be made in the future.
Worked with vfd's last 30 yrs. or so and they have are smaller, way less expensive and newer ones seem to really last.
you definitely are installing a top-quality system
Ron

Ron, you are all set now. But for others setting up a new system, Nordfab does make custom components for a reasonable price if you go through a retailer who can make the measured drawings needed. I am certain you can get 2 1/2” laterals. Not sure about 2” or 1 1/2”. There is a lower limit to the diameter that can be formed. I am getting several custom Nordfab parts through Air Cleaning Specialists, www.ductingsystems.com. More on that when they arrive.

VFD’s are a new thing for dust collectors. Only, Oneida and Harvey are offering them so far that I know. Most manufacturers will surely follow. One technical development to follow is the speed control. Oneida has a controller that increases/decreases speed to control flow to a set point (This is what they actually meant by “Smart” dust collector.). Harvey has manual speed control. The problem with the Smart design is that not all tools need 900 CFM. I will be connecting up a router table with dust box that would be much happier loafing along at a couple hundred CFM rather than 900. I plan to crack open an extra blast gate to throttle the flow to the router down. A manual dial might be better or at least quieter.

Dust collection turns out to be a fascinating engineering problem.

[Jim Becker]

I went with the Blastgate Company equivalent of Nordfab and love it. The few cuts I had to make in the temporary shop I did with a...hacksaw...but would use my jigsaw with appropriate blade or a shear if I were going to be doing a larger shop. And both companies provide for custom fabrication if it's needed. I only used that for having machine adapters, um...adapted...to the varying size of machine ports. LOL They have a "stretchy machine" that can adjust the ID or OD as needed. But they can also make up special things where there are special needs.

[Thomas Wilson]

Not a lot of visible progress last week. (I am doing Christmassy stuff in Atlanta for a few days right now.) I have mostly been thinking about how to connect up the duct work. I perhaps I should re-title this thread, “ The Overthinkers Guide to Dust Collection.” The thing occupying my feeble noggin is connecting the elbow coming down from the shop across to the dust collector inlet. In the planning phase when I drew the piping in the closet and the dust collector input and figured and scratched and scratched and figured, I finally concluded … it was going to be close.
DuctDrawing.jpeg
The plan was for the up-down and left-right adjustments against the wall to be done by positioning the DC wall bracket. I have just a little bit of left-right with the ductwork. I knew before I installed it that the duct work needed to be pulled as near to the front wall as possible. When I had it all in the closet and measured it, I realized that if I pushed the pipe to the edge of the range of possible adjustment in one direction and pushed the dust collector as far as I could in the opposite direction that it would still be a 3/4 inch short of lining up horizontally.
ClosetDuct.jpg TestFitDustCollector.jpg (I know the sleeve is on the wrong side of the joint between elbow and dust collector. I put it there on purpose to be able to see if the elbow was perpendicular to the wall. Final assembly will correct this.)

I scratched and figured again and then a miracle occurred. The part of the dust collector that would contact the back wall of the closet is the filter. The filter is attached via an elbow to the fan housing that sits on top of the barrel. The dust collector inlet is cut into the barrel. The miracle was the realization that the holes for bolting the fan housing to the barrel are a bit oversized. The fan housing can be rotated with respect to the barrel a few degrees. Amplified by the distance from the pivot point to the edge of the filter, the filter moves away from the wall about 1 1/4”. I have a 1/2” to spare. Disaster averted.

I have also been thinking about how close to lining up do Nordfab parts need to be for the clamps to seal tightly. Components clamp together best when they are free to pull together without any load or resistance, for example with at least one end free to move as needed. In the closet, the dust collector when permanently mounted is locked down and the piping is nearly so. Only the sleeve is free to move in and out, but side to side and up and down have only a fractions of an inch. Rotation about any axis is about zero except for rotation of the elbow about the vertical. The position of the bracket is not going to be perfect. I can only hope that I get it within 1/16", which seems reasonable. The question is will the clamp close and create an airtight seal with this alignment. I plan to line it up as close as it will go, clamp it, then unclamp and reclaim all the joints in the ductwork going up and away from the closing joint. I will probably do this a few times to distribute strain equally among the joints. I won't know if it is good enough until the whole system is assembled and the dust collector is fired up.

There are other ways to do the connection between elbow and DC, for example using rigid-flex duct, but I was trying for the smoothest entry into the DC so I will keep that idea in reserve to use if this does not seal up.

I return to the shop tomorrow. Wish me luck on the bracket alignment.

[Thomas Wilson]

The scratching and figuring must have worked. The duct and dust collector lined up, and the filter has clearance to the wall. The pipes are flush and clamped easily. The main dust collector parts were taken down and the remounted permanently with all the gaskets in place. The position of the wall bracket was adjusted to get the parts to line up. They did and I was relieved.

C1D1D4DA-CCFE-4251-918D-2419CF8C47EE.jpg
This is the plate to which the filter attaches. It is the same diameter as the filter. The clearance to an imaginary line connecting the inside faces of the studs is about 1/2” which is what I figured.
E87334BB-A961-4DA5-B323-7BFA8D2DA5EE.jpg
Now, I move on to the next tasks that I am uncertain about. The big three are:

Replace and extend the wire for the magnetic controls so the on/off switch and remote control receiver can be moved upstairs.

Cut neat, precise holes in the floor for the ductwork.

Measuring for the custom parts.

I have to run the ductwork too, but that is seemly the easy part. Two pipe cuts so far and I feel like an expert.

[Thomas Wilson]

Good progress by my standards yesterday and today on the dust collector installation. I can turn any 15 minute job into a two hour ordeal by worrying, misplacing tools, looking for notes I wrote 6 months ago. So my results are relative to that standard. Plus, this job requires a lot of going up and down stairs.

I had three jobs on my list in the last post. I got a good start on #1 and #2. The first task was to work out the plan for moving the motor controls and the bin-full alarm light through the floor up to the shop level. I opened the motor cover and control box to see what was involved. I asked a question about this before. This is how it worked out. When I asked how this might be accomplished, the new Oneida Smart Gorilla dust collector was not yet purchased and I based the question on my old portable Dust Gorilla. The controls for the Smart Gorilla are organized differently than Portable Dust Gorilla. First the good news, motor control box for the Portable had the low voltage control and the power switching contacts. The Smart Gorilla just has the low voltage contacts in the control box. The wires leading in and out of the Smart Gorilla’s box are just low voltage communication cable which can be routed without much restriction.
CFE0C0ED-8182-43C6-AB9C-4421EF06921B.jpg
With the Portable, I was concerned about routing the 220 v, 30 amp power up to shop and back. With the Smart Gorilla, it will just be low voltage control. The bad news is that the receiver for the remote control is also in the motor housing. It is intimately tied into the motor controller inside the motor housing.
9054E6A7-E103-429B-88C3-E4CB5E91980D.jpg
The receiver is the small box on the side of the motor controls. It is not movable, at least not by me. I wonder if I could help reception from the shop remote by splicing some wire onto the receiver’s antenna. I will wait to test that to see if it works as is. Sometimes antenna wire length is important.

Moving the box only entails obtaining communication cable that is about 10-12 feet long instead of 7. So far, I have not found a source other than a 500’ spool. I need Allied Wire and Cable (AWC) 5662. It is 3 conductor, tinned copper, 18 AWG communication grade. Still cogitating on what to do. I feel certain that there is a way to get the right stuff or a viable substitute.

[Jim Becker]

Did you consider asking Oneida if they will sell you a longer hunk of that wire so you can relocate the box as necessary for your shop?

[Thomas Wilson]

The second task on my list today is to cut some holes in the floor for duct work. I cut one. I confess to having a catatonic paralysis when it comes to making the first cut on any project so this is a big deal. I also posted a question on this forum about this task. The method I chose closely follows the ideas and advice given. First, I decided to use a circular template and router guide bushing to make the hole straight and neat. I made the template big enough that I could kneel on it while cutting and I used double sided tape to keep it from slipping around. One end of the template is 6”, the other is 4”.
4F3D792C-724A-4C97-B604-114C30D2F246.jpg
This worked great. I made the template from 1/2” Blondewood plywood from Lowes. It has few voids so it is good for bushing guides. I added packing tape on the corners to help with getting the glue off.
A8320443-84D1-4F48-B1FF-B6611132D0D7.jpg
I marked the outline for positioning the template using a red carpenter’s pencil. I added a guideline inside the perimeter to aid in drilling out the waste.
73C2B28D-5A73-4837-AE7D-A3EC4512BBAE.jpg
I drilled just inside the anticipated router line and then cut the plug out with a jig saw with a very long blade.
C3D8EFA0-070D-4AF9-A118-B3F4EBC5105E.jpg 467E4D46-8102-4042-B32B-B2E08DA8350B.jpg F4D1ECCF-8235-43CF-AA17-CE0C4D8765A8.jpg
I trimmed the hole in several passes. I used a bit with 1/2” diameter with 1” cutting length first in a plunge router. I had to cut through oak with flooring nails so I wanted the cheapest bit. There were sparks. I finished the cut with a 1/2” by 2 1/2” bit in my hoss router. It is like an old friend. They don’t make them like they used to.
B45FE66C-4136-42D5-8699-43E376EB699E.jpg

[Ron Selzer]

CFE0C0ED-8182-43C6-AB9C-4421EF06921B.jpg



nothing special here any 3 wire cable will work. you can buy an extension cord 16 or 18 gauge, cut the ends off. or use t-stat wire. what ever meets your needs for looks. As long as the circuit is low voltage on less than 100va circuit just about anytrhing works.


With the Portable, I was concerned about routing the 220 v, 30 amp power up to shop and back. With the Smart Gorilla, it will just be low voltage control. The bad news is that the receiver for the remote control is also in the motor housing. It is intimately tied into the motor controller inside the motor housing.
9054E6A7-E103-429B-88C3-E4CB5E91980D.jpg
The receiver is the small box on the side of the motor controls. It is not movable, at least not by me. I wonder if I could help reception from the shop remote by splicing some wire onto the receiver’s antenna. I will wait to test that to see if it works as is. Sometimes antenna wire length is important.

based on picture looks like 18-6 t-stat wire will allow you to relocate remote receiver where ever you want

good luck
Ron



If you are with in 3hrs driving distance of 43130 I will come and walk you thru it or we can talk on phone anytime. (Not working right now as at home recovering from auto crash)

[Thomas Wilson]

My new dust collection system is operational! The electrical connections are finished. I had previously been told the electrical inspector wanted to see the wiring to the floor outlets before we enclosed it. Since that inspector has moved on, the electrician now says we can skip that step and just have a final inspection with all work finished. The general contractor said the sheetrock crew can come in as soon as I have the basement cleared of tools and stored wood. I do need to cut some holes in the floor for return air. I want to hold off until I have cabinets to cover the holes. Right now, air returns through the open basement door. It exerts quite a push on the door. The only bad news is that there is a 20-22 week delivery time for custom, 8' x 10' garage doors to actually finish the functional components of the building.

Here is the full system hooked up with filter. The closet is as small as you could get and still have room for it all. I will be able to roll the dust bin out of the closet with no trouble. I will be able to remove the filter as needed. I don’t think I can blow the filter externally in place because of the clearance against the back wall.

DustCollectorInstalled.jpg

I wired the dust collector power cord to a quick disconnect box like what you might use for an outside heat pump unit. I was able to get a gland connector the right size to make a neat entrance to the box. The power lead from the panel comes in through the back.

Locating the on/off controls and the dust bin level alarm to the shop worked out well. I will give some details of how that went down in a separate thread. This is the control post between the table saw and planer.

ControlPost.jpg

The remote for the new Oneida works better than the old one through the floor, but this relocated controls are so convenient that I hardly use the remote.

The bin sensor works reasonably well. However there are some things that are different from my previous dust collector which simply turned on when the level reached the setpoint. First, the approach recommended by Oneida to prevent false alarm from the optical signal reflecting the shiny metal drum bottom is to put a cardboard disk which they supply in the bottom of the bin. In this dust collector, the disk blows around like a piece of cardboard in a cyclone which sets off the alarm. At Oneida's suggestion, I glued the disk down with double-sided tape which fixed the lift-off problem. I had used a cardboard disk with my previous 2 HP dust collector with same size barrel and it had no problems with lift-off. Even with the cardboard in place, I see an occasional flash from the alarm light when there is dust in the bin. I think this is dust circulating in the bin high enough to set it off. Flashes change from occasional to persistent as the drum fills. I wonder if the air flow from this cyclone needs a larger diameter drum to slow the angular velocity. That is Oneida's problem. For now, I will need to calibrate my sensors on how to interpret the flash pattern.

One thing to be aware of is that some of the things learned on earlier fixed speed blowers no longer apply to this variable speed dust collector. It has significantly higher flow and develops higher suction pressure than any conventional fixed speed blower using the same cyclone and bin. Conventional wisdom learned from experience may need to be updated.

To test the system, I started on my next project, building the handrail and trimming the stairs to the upstairs bedroom. To prepare material for the newel post, I planed and ripped some 2x12 white oak for a laminated 6"x6" post. The sawdust filled the drum (well ¾ filled) on the first day. Dust collection is really strong. The layout of blast gates close together at a convenient height is one of the advantages of the through-the-floor design. I swapped from one machine to another planing, jointing, and ripping. The new arrangement is much easier than moving the flexible hose from machine to machine. And I am happy not to step over the flex hose. Electrical cords are neatly plugged in next to their machine and there are no cords across the aisles to obstruct carts or trip the gray-haired shop occupant.