Motherboard on Epilog Helix cooked-major

[Pat Kearney]

Anyone experience the same problem? Last evening I had the rotary attachment plugged in on my 35W Epilog Helix for about 5 minutes while I was setting up and then all of a sudden a lot of sparks (almost flames) and lots of smoke started billowing out the side until I pulled the power cord from the outlet. Once I removed the side panel I quickly determined it was the motherboard. Lots of ashes and black soot on the board and particularly near the rear where the ribbon for what appears to be the Control Panel connects. Once I removed the board I found a large amount of black soot on the side panel behind where the board mounted. I spoke with Epilog techncial support today and they advised for starters that I will need to purchase a refurbished motherboard at $1300 with a $400 deposit returned to me when I return the old motherboard. Then I may need to keep purchasing other parts to try an determine what caused the problem. Sounds like it could be very expensive!
A couple of questions for anyone who would like to respond are: Has anyone else experienced this? Any idea as to how I may be able to find the problem vs my having to replace a bunch of parts? Also, I am shaking my head as the laser sees very little usage, I would guess 5-6 hours on average per week and it's less than 3 years old-I am wondering why this would happen?
Thanks.

Pat

[Kim Vellore]

Epilog has the stepper motor driver mounted on the MOBO, I have the chip number at home, I can post it later and this is a poor design. The motor is driven in pure DC mode not even pulsed and no current limits or cutbacks during idle and mounted on the MOBO. This I know from my epilog TT machine. They might have improved in other designs. The driver chip could be the one that burnt out, there are two chips. The problem is if it has burnt out other traces on the MOBO it may not be easy to repair them.

You could disconnect the rotary fixture and power on the laser and see if everything else works fine, there is not much to blow up inside the laser, There is only 3 expensive things inside, the power supply, tube and MOBO.

If you power ON and nothing works check the circuit breaker on the side and the fuses. There should be a some fuses inside too, I think 2 in the power supply and another in the distribution board. If everything else works fine you could have the chip replaced almost for nothing if you do it yourself.

Kim

[Kim Vellore]

Pat,
The motor driver chip # is LMD18245 and it is available at digikey for $13.

Kim

[Peck Sidara]

Pat,

Sorry to hear about your mishap. Remove the board and inspect under magnification to determine what components/traces were affected or if it appears to just be the chip. If so, what's the chip #(s).

Best case scenario; replace rotary drive chip on MB. If needed, I can confirm chip # tomorrow morning (different MB than on older models, may or may not be same chip).

I would also replace rotary motor at the same time as this was likely the culprit which blew the MB to begin with. Perhaps a short between wires or within the motor itself.

Common problem? absolutely not. We use the same rotary on the Mini as we did on the Summit. It's a tried and true unit with a proven track record.

Worse case scenario: Blowing the chip(s) on the MB lead to other components making it completely dead. Replace both MB and rotary motor.

Yes, it's possible other components were affected (thus the suggestion that you'll need to replace more than a few parts) but typically not the case.

Let's get this straight now. Nothing faulty about the design, nothing faulty about our electronics or engineering. These kind of things can happen from time to time with ALL types of electronics and it's just that; electronics. It's not dependent on use or time (preferrable it comes with time).

If by replacing the chip the machine still doesn't boot. I can talk to our service manager and see what he can do in regards to attempting to repair your board at cost of components plus labor. Quite a savings but will take time (1-2 weeks).

Send me a PM with the results and let me know if you need that chip #.

[Dan Hintz]

I would also replace rotary motor at the same time as this was likely the culprit which blew the MB to begin with. Perhaps a short between wires or within the motor itself.
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Let's get this straight now. Nothing faulty about the design, nothing faulty about our electronics or engineering. These kind of things can happen from time to time with ALL types of electronics and it's just that; electronics. It's not dependent on use or time (preferrable it comes with time).

Peck,

I have not seen a schematic for the design and therefore cannot speak with authority, but shouldn't a proper design take a failed motor into account? Driver chips typically have high-temp shutdown feature, and I would think a proper design would add in short-circuit sensing and protection.

To me, a proper design would separate the main control electronics from the driver board, particularly if the driver components are the most prone to going belly up when something bad eventually happens. As I mentioned before, though, I would think the driver board should handle a bad motor gracefully, shut it down, and warn the user (even with something as simple as a blinking LED on the same board). A proper design would also reduce the cost associated with losing a particular component... if you can cut replacement costs in half by splitting the motherboard into two pieces (at little extra cost), it's a worthwhile investment. $1,300 to receive a refurb'd board is pretty steep (I can't imagine what a new board costs), particularly when it's something that should have been a $200 driver board (and that $200 has a LOT of profit cushion built in). A proper design takes maintenance into account, not just proper operation.

When things go <pfzzt>, it means two things... a protection component itself has gone bad (like losing a driver chip due to failed over-temp protection circuit), or the circuit was not properly protected in the first place. Since I can't see the circuit, I cannot make that kind of determination, but I think any reasonable person would agree with the two possibilities mentioned before being the only valid ones.

Components do go bad, I've been the victim of many in my own designs, so here's to hoping a driver chip just went belly up.

[Rob Bosworth]

I don't mean to be defending Epilog, but I think we are making tooooo many assumptions about what failed and why it failed. I have worked on hundreds of Epilog machines over the years. I have seen almost every component fail on all of their models over the years. (That doesn't sound right. I think I meant that I have seen a fair amount of failed components over the years.) What I do not see is the same part, machine to machine, having high incidences of failure. If we see a higher than normal failure of a component or components on a certain model of machine, Epilog usually steps up and tries to make it good to the owners' of these machines. (Epilog is not alone in this practice.) They do not bat an eye to send an upgrade or replacement if it will improve what is out there, and most of the time they don't even charge shipping.

So before we condemn the design of the machine and/ or the component usage, let's see what is really wrong. $ 1,300 is a lot of money, but at least it is money being spent on something that should be making you money. I would rather spend $ 1,300 on a replacement part for a machine, than have to pay $ 1,300 for a new lower unit for my outboard.

[Peck Sidara]

Peck,

I have not seen a schematic for the design and therefore cannot speak with authority, but shouldn't a proper design take a failed motor into account? Driver chips typically have high-temp shutdown feature, and I would think a proper design would add in short-circuit sensing and protection.

To me, a proper design would separate the main control electronics from the driver board, particularly if the driver components are the most prone to going belly up when something bad eventually happens. As I mentioned before, though, I would think the driver board should handle a bad motor gracefully, shut it down, and warn the user (even with something as simple as a blinking LED on the same board). A proper design would also reduce the cost associated with losing a particular component... if you can cut replacement costs in half by splitting the motherboard into two pieces (at little extra cost), it's a worthwhile investment. $1,300 to receive a refurb'd board is pretty steep (I can't imagine what a new board costs), particularly when it's something that should have been a $200 driver board (and that $200 has a LOT of profit cushion built in). A proper design takes maintenance into account, not just proper operation.

When things go <pfzzt>, it means two things... a protection component itself has gone bad (like losing a driver chip due to failed over-temp protection circuit), or the circuit was not properly protected in the first place. Since I can't see the circuit, I cannot make that kind of determination, but I think any reasonable person would agree with the two possibilities mentioned before being the only valid ones.

Components do go bad, I've been the victim of many in my own designs, so here's to hoping a driver chip just went belly up.

Agreed Dan. Let's remember that this is all based on speculation from the information we've been told.

There's no factual data telling us that the rotary motor was shorted; caused the rotary drive chip to blow, bypassing any safety features built into the MB of Pat's machine; possibly causing other components to fry.

One of Pat's questions was if others have seen such problem. I can honestly say yes, others have probably seen "similar" failures like in Kim's case. When you look at the big picture, thousands of Mini/Helix's sold with an overall very minimal failure rate (I'd guess a small fraction of 1%) then my statement regarding our electrical engineering capacity holds water.

The creek is a great place with great members but what I beleive most tend to forget is that members of such great forums are a small community/percentage of overall laser owners so when one says it's a bad design/common problem; overall, does it make it a true statement?

I can't comment on whether our design is the best possible one available and that every single electrical component is bullet proof to the 5th degree. I can only assure Epilog owners and prospects that we do our very best to provide the best quality laser engraving system in the industry.

So where does this leave Pat? To save money, he'll have to do some trouble-shooting, possibly some parts locating and attempt to repair the board himself.

If unrepairable, I'm still offering to see what our service department can do to limit the costs. If the time involved is a factor (big jobs, orders due, etc.) then as a business owner, he'll have to decide whether the cost of a replacement board is worth the jobs and revenue lost from the down time.

Another thing to consider is that there's no guarantee that he can repair or have the board repaired locally w/out coming across other issues (no one has seen the board but himself). There's also no guarantee that our tech support group can repair his board.

There's just no easy answer/solution here.

[Bill Cunningham]

$ 1,300 is a lot of money, but at least it is money being spent on something that should be making you money. I would rather spend $ 1,300 on a replacement part for a machine, than have to pay $ 1,300 for a new lower unit for my outboard.

Maby off topic Rob.. But if you have a lower unit problem.. Check these guys out.. They have a OB lower coming in Sept.
http://www.sterndrive.cc/

[Rob Bosworth]

Bill, I bought a 9.8 Hp Merc on a jon boat for my youngest son. After getting it home, I realized that the lower unit is leaking around the prop seal. Luckily I noticed it here, before the young lad could whisk it away. It will be much easier to fix before he destroys it. Maintenance is not a word in his vocabulary. Run it till it breaks is a little more descriptive of his mindset.

[Pat Kearney]

After trying all suggestions above (thank you everyone who offered your assistance) and showing the board to an electronics person that I know (who shook his head and said that's one cooked card, nothing he could do with it) I finally decided to purchase the motherboard. Waiting for it to arrive now and try it out. I'm still not sure what caused the problem but I guess I will find out soon. I'll keep you posted - and once again thanks for your suggestions. Pat