Good source if you want to try Japanese planes

[Rafael Herrera]

The real, real, real deal is the Chinese furniture that Chippendale's furniture was a rip off of.

f9a523485ffc240db6317cca356ff1ddb1e44198.jpg

[stephen thomas]

Oh goody!
Planes and esoterica!

I used to work occasionally with some Korean carpenters so am sort of familiar with oriental saws.
The parents of a (paid) intern who worked for me summers all through architecture school brought me a plane from China during his first year.
They were certainly Chinese, but both were technical people (dad was an engineer), so i have no idea of the quality, nor if they did either. It was fun to use intermittently, but my experience is all western. & of course all my planes & especially specialty planes are too.

In western planes, you can either make the throat aperture the control for chip-breaking/anti-tearout. Or you can use the cap iron ("Chipbreaker"). It is not possible to optimize both at once. Most general woodworking planes end up being set with a compromise that makes it easy to use one plane for a bunch of tasks encompassing a range of chip thickness, but would not be optimal for finish smoothing difficult wood.
So i wonder if, other than esthetics, the (wide?) throats on the OP planes is a practical issue?

Why does one of the planes in the OP pair have the grain dead flat sawn, like say a western beech soled transitional; vs the other has nearly perfectly vertical grain?
Are the 2 planes, for 2 different purposes?

Someone mentioned bedding angle.
What is a typical range?
Is it different for softwood vs hardwood?

Luke - living in Japan, do you ever see anyone using a ("good") western plane? Any opinions by Japanese nationals who have experienced a "good" one?
They seem mostly pragmatic, less special or hidebound in approach than the dichotomy that seems to happen here so i wonder if they are open to trying such.

Japan started fairly early making quite good and well thought out heavy woodworking equipment, albeit of sizes that seem made for one large timber at a time. (IOW, instead of a 30" or 36" wide Buss, Whitney, or American type planer, the machines in that categroy seem fairly narrow in perspective, but will take much thicker timbers. Just as an example of casual notices. They still make machines sort of like old US cabinet scrapers with a single knife peeling a continuous strip shaving, but it is only about 12" wide on a skew, compared with the monster piano top cabinet scrapers of yore.

I love the single end tenoner in the background of the planing video!
Those guys are not afraid of machines.

smt

[Cameron Wood]

The real, real deal. Over four installments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhu7HjIGAk&t=511s

Interesting, but I don't see the connection to Japanese planes.

[Cameron Wood]

Oh goody!
Planes and esoterica!

I used to work occasionally with some Korean carpenters so am sort of familiar with oriental saws.
The parents of a (paid) intern who worked for me summers all through architecture school brought me a plane from China during his first year.
They were certainly Chinese, but both were technical people (dad was an engineer), so i have no idea of the quality, nor if they did either. It was fun to use intermittently, but my experience is all western. & of course all my planes & especially specialty planes are too.

In western planes, you can either make the throat aperture the control for chip-breaking/anti-tearout. Or you can use the cap iron ("Chipbreaker"). It is not possible to optimize both at once. Most general woodworking planes end up being set with a compromise that makes it easy to use one plane for a bunch of tasks encompassing a range of chip thickness, but would not be optimal for finish smoothing difficult wood.
So i wonder if, other than esthetics, the (wide?) throats on the OP planes is a practical issue?

Why does one of the planes in the OP pair have the grain dead flat sawn, like say a western beech soled transitional; vs the other has nearly perfectly vertical grain?
Are the 2 planes, for 2 different purposes?

Someone mentioned bedding angle.
What is a typical range?
Is it different for softwood vs hardwood?

Luke - living in Japan, do you ever see anyone using a ("good") western plane? Any opinions by Japanese nationals who have experienced a "good" one?
They seem mostly pragmatic, less special or hidebound in approach than the dichotomy that seems to happen here so i wonder if they are open to trying such.

Japan started fairly early making quite good and well thought out heavy woodworking equipment, albeit of sizes that seem made for one large timber at a time. (IOW, instead of a 30" or 36" wide Buss, Whitney, or American type planer, the machines in that categroy seem fairly narrow in perspective, but will take much thicker timbers. Just as an example of casual notices. They still make machines sort of like old US cabinet scrapers with a single knife peeling a continuous strip shaving, but it is only about 12" wide on a skew, compared with the monster piano top cabinet scrapers of yore.

I love the single end tenoner in the background of the planing video!
Those guys are not afraid of machines.

smt

There are two approaches to the grain orientation: rift sawn, and flat sawn. The flat sawn I believe is more stable, or at least moves more uniformly, and the rift sawn wears better. The vertical grain one is uncommon. (according to my somewhat limited understanding)

The sole is scraped periodically to condition the sole, making the block thinner and the mouth wider, so well used planes will have a wider mouth and/or a piece fitted to make it narrower. Planes used for heavier cuts need a wider mouth so the more worn ones tend to get used that way.

Most Japanese woodwork is with softwoods, so the planes are mostly around 40˚. I have one designed for hardwoods with a steeper angle.

[stephen thomas]

Somebody on PM posted that this is the real, real, real, real, deal.
Or something like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpefYPLH67A&t=1s

(Turn on subtitles)

[Jim Koepke]

I used to work occasionally with some Korean carpenters so am sort of familiar with oriental saws.

My son is stationed in Korea. He sent me a new Japanese style plane last Christmas. It works well, but after using western planes for so many years it is easier to work with the ones that have worked for me for so long.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

It is. Good video. LOL

[stephen thomas]

It works well, but after using western planes for so many years it is easier to work with the ones that have worked for me for so long

Truth.

Not that i don't like to try other methods, i do.
But at this time of life i have to be careful which rabbit holes to get deeper into. No resistance to the ideas/knowledge/philosophy.
But AFA acquisition, my wife keeps reminding me we are trying to de-acquisition.
However, anything to do with planes is valuable for thinking about my own efforts.
Planes are simple, but not necessarily easy.

Don't worry about me, though.
I can always quit after just one more.

smt

[Kevin Jenness]

Somebody on PM posted that this is the real, real, real, real, deal.
Or something like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpefYPLH67A&t=1s

(Turn on subtitles)

Sawdust and guts! Gives "Chainsaw Massacre a whole new meaning.

[Cameron Wood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcHYb3y1TsM

In this video, a guy who has won planing competitions says that the size of the mouth opening doesn't matter, but a small one looks cool.

[stephen thomas]

That is a cool video.
I really enjoyed it, and i'm a person who seldom sits through one.

Interesting that like in western cultures, often the guy who can explain it, including nuances, might not be the guy who uses one every day in trades.

I like how casual they are with the steel hammer - swat the chisel with it, even smack the side of the edge to bump it along a line.
I was relating to a lot of his work.

Maybe especially the part where he scrapes the iron bedding surface. Just like scraping the CI (frog) of a western plane.
Or the wooden bed in an infill plane! I have some specialty tools for that. One difference being that in the west, we reference flat. Then any flat iron can be used instead.
The Japanese planes are clearly a one-iron-only tool, and would need completely re-scraped to fit a different one. I sort of presume the plane body would be worn out before the blade?
Where as some of us have planes where we wore out new irons over a working life.

Keeping vibration to a minimum is a big factor when you go for nil tearout (& gossamer shavings) Japanese irons attain this with the wood damping and thick iron, which is laminated with wrought iron (like old western plane irons, chisels, and slicks). I have an impression that a short iron vibrates less as well. This may be significant. Many western planes have (scrape fitted) wooden bedding, and have a means to clamp a moderately thin iron, or iron + cap iron combination with enough force to behave as though it were a much thicker blade. But almost all western irons are relatively long. In fact the proportion of useful cutting edge to the rest of the shank of the iron is probably only about 1:5 or 1:6 in a new iron. Lots of shank out there to resonate. Even with good clamping systems.

Do actual carpenters use the 6" wide planes, or is it primarily a competition thing?
Is a metal body plane allowed?

smt