Spindle moulder setting up for curved work

[Paul Ricard]

Oops, wrong picture this is a setup for shaping without a template using the split tooling method. That is another discussion. But the routed lines in the picture are the finish cut and I am cutting close to that.
Here is a picture of the workpiece bandsawed close to the line ready for inside sash cut. Notice the template is screwed to the tenons. You can see the adjustable dead collar above the cutter. If you have the Felder curve hood it should have a simple adj collar?
Attachment 494595

It seems that Felder sells the adjustable collar separately, this sucks! Hopefully, they send bolts and screws, what a nightmare!
https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/s...-guard-sp91612

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
Yes, it’s the same with the Aigner the collars are sold separately. The Aigner ones have to be ordered according to bore size. I have one similar to what Felder sells. It works fine just a little more cumbersome to set up but good for shops not doing a lot of curve work. I used bearings and starting pins for years but these hoods are a big improvement over that. Plus they keep dust from flying everywhere.
the adjustable dead collar makes for versatile setups. Here are pictures using them to put the rebates in glass beads and the door moulding of the door pictured above.
A02D7A20-D1C0-479B-A0AA-B8B6837B974F.jpgE50F297B-FD5A-4673-970D-9300CF4BCD6D.jpg
DA9AB89C-4849-4C39-860D-1891F4A81017.jpg8DC0E8CA-A835-4E34-9EA7-ECAC8DACC117.jpg

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, thanks for the info.
Another question I would like to ask is related to the way a long beam is made.
In my case, 2.7m long piece of gentle curved wood, would it be best to have two or three pieces glued together using the finger joint method?

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
On segments my rule is pieces no wider than 7 1/2” plus or minus. Any wider and you end up with a lot of short grain. A lot of the early 1900s millwork used wide or one piece heads and they are prone to cracking. It’s easy to figure out in CAD or a full size drawing.
Finger joints are strong and good for door and window work. But other methods like dowels, loose tenons or slot and tenon work also. On profiled casings I use short tenons as the finger joints look weird in profiled trim.
D68DC919-7DF3-494A-AE64-75E1FEF84BED.jpg
C148E8EE-D461-40DC-89AC-8C5336E1AF3E.jpg
240EBDE3-BA74-4BB6-92AB-8A525BC739BD.jpg

[brent stanley]

Nice pictures Joe, I'm terrible at taking progress shots.

Did you ever give bent lamination or steam bending a try for that work, or not worth the time?

Paul,
On segments my rule is pieces no wider than 7 1/2” plus or minus. Any wider and you end up with a lot of short grain. A lot of the early 1900s millwork used wide or one piece heads and they are prone to cracking. It’s easy to figure out in CAD or a full size drawing.
Finger joints are strong and good for door and window work. But other methods like dowels, loose tenons or slot and tenon work also. On profiled casings I use short tenons as the finger joints look weird in profiled trim.
D68DC919-7DF3-494A-AE64-75E1FEF84BED.jpg
C148E8EE-D461-40DC-89AC-8C5336E1AF3E.jpg
240EBDE3-BA74-4BB6-92AB-8A525BC739BD.jpg

[Paul Ricard]

Paul,
On segments my rule is pieces no wider than 7 1/2” plus or minus. Any wider and you end up with a lot of short grain. A lot of the early 1900s millwork used wide or one piece heads and they are prone to cracking. It’s easy to figure out in CAD or a full size drawing.
Finger joints are strong and good for door and window work. But other methods like dowels, loose tenons or slot and tenon work also. On profiled casings I use short tenons as the finger joints look weird in profiled trim.
D68DC919-7DF3-494A-AE64-75E1FEF84BED.jpg
C148E8EE-D461-40DC-89AC-8C5336E1AF3E.jpg
240EBDE3-BA74-4BB6-92AB-8A525BC739BD.jpg

Great job Joe, bravo! I see you make frames pieces by gluing 2 pieces together making one 2-ply beam.
Because my frame case is 2.7m wide, I would like to ask about the proper width of frame jambs and crosspieces. I have the following frame, where only the upper is curved, and the 4 sashes will close to the red horizontal frame. They will be square, normal ones. Do you think the proper width would be 100mm or 90mm is enough? Thickness remains 68mm.
BalconyFrame.jpg

Thanks again.

[Joe Calhoon]

Great job Joe, bravo! I see you make frames pieces by gluing 2 pieces together making one 2-ply beam.
Because my frame case is 2.7m wide, I would like to ask about the proper width of frame jambs and crosspieces. I have the following frame, where only the upper is curved, and the 4 sashes will close to the red horizontal frame. They will be square, normal ones. Do you think the proper width would be 100mm or 90mm is enough? Thickness remains 68mm.
BalconyFrame.jpg

Thanks again.

Paul,
For my IV 68 window system the window frame and sash scantlings are all 78 or 80 mm wide. The 68mm thickness is made of 3 layers of 24mm thick material. S4S down to the 68mm thickness. In the case of your window I would be comfortable making everything 80 mm wide as most is supported by the wall framing. You could make the straight horizontal piece at the top a little wider since it is unsupported and will receive profiling and rebates both sides. 90 or 100 mm ok for that.
Picture of IV 68 scantlings.
08CECC5A-F795-4C0F-8018-92250BA4863A.jpg

The big window door units with the door in the center is a different situation. Since the inner parts are unsupported by wall framing I make those wider 100 mm plus just to help stiffness if the door gets closed hard.

2397B5F1-4B94-4A9F-9216-AB95FFD09E26.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

Nice pictures Joe, I'm terrible at taking progress shots.

Did you ever give bent lamination or steam bending a try for that work, or not worth the time?

Brent,
I’ve done plenty of curved lamination for North American style doors. The jambs are thin on these usually 1 1/4 or thicker for exterior doors.
Hard to do segments at these thicknesses. The Euro doors with frame thickness of 68 -78 or 92mm lend themselves to the segmented frame approach. It’s the right way to do those. I have no desire to try steam bending for jambs. We toured the Thonet factory in Germany. There was some master work of steam bending in that shop!

Curved laminated is the most economical way to produce curved jambs but better is bricklaying cores with veneered show surfaces. This solves the problem of spring back in laminated work. Very labor intensive though.
Picture is a Mesquite door unit we built several years ago using the bricklaying method.

54CDEB18-5894-4FCF-95A2-90E0819E4B79.jpg
E475BF8E-B736-4A8C-97C6-127D2AAC72E0.jpg

[brent stanley]

Brent,
I’ve done plenty of curved lamination for North American style doors. The jambs are thin on these usually 1 1/4 or thicker for exterior doors.
Hard to do segments at these thicknesses. The Euro doors with frame thickness of 68 -78 or 92mm lend themselves to the segmented frame approach. It’s the right way to do those. I have no desire to try steam bending for jambs. We toured the Thonet factory in Germany. There was some master work of steam bending in that shop!

Curved laminated is the most economical way to produce curved jambs but better is bricklaying cores with veneered show surfaces. This solves the problem of spring back in laminated work. Very labor intensive though.
Picture is a Mesquite door unit we built several years ago using the bricklaying method.

54CDEB18-5894-4FCF-95A2-90E0819E4B79.jpg
E475BF8E-B736-4A8C-97C6-127D2AAC72E0.jpg

Lots of great details and pictures there Joe thanks. I've always been able to get bent laminations to work here with thinner sections being more common but some things were awkward. I took a steam bending course from the local guru and its fascinating. 80% science, 20% art it seems, but great results with it all works.

Thanks again,
B

[Paul Ricard]

Paul,
On arched windows and doors I normally do the inside sash cuts first screwing the template into waste part of outside. For the final outside cut the template can be screwed to blocks mounted in the glass rebate or through the tenons on the rails.

Hi Joe, I would like to ask something on a previous post of yours above: I attach here the inner and outer profile of sashes. I assume that my tools' orientation is quite the same as yours,
but I cannot figure out where could I screw the template (red rectangle) without damaging the visible surface of sash when machining inner sash?

Thanks.


***Edit: Never mind, I figured out that you leave outer part of wood (out of template) uncut in order to put the screws.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, yes inside cuts first with screws in the waste area. Then several ways to attach for the outside cut. In the picture I have attached blocks in the glass rebate then screwing into those. See the picture below. You can also attach to the tenons. If no tenons for dowel or domino construction make a counter piece screwed into the end then attach the template to that.

Now, if this is your first time curve shaping be very careful. Be sure the jig is overhanging the ends by 3 or 4 inches. Take very light cuts using your adjustable collar. In fact before turning the shaper on make dry runs using the feeder. It won’t damage the cutter if turned not to make contact with the workpiece. A lot of curve shaping is knowing what to expect when wood meets cutter.

I see from your drawing your cutters are set up for glass bead removal from the scantling. Normally for curves an additional cutter is required to allow using a 5mm router bit to cut the bead out. That gets expensive. I usually waste the bead out with a rebate cutter then make a separate bead.

7A0B52EE-94EE-4AF4-8001-EDEF2BA32D1D.jpg

[Paul Ricard]

Paul, yes inside cuts first with screws in the waste area. Then several ways to attach for the outside cut. In the picture I have attached blocks in the glass rebate then screwing into those. See the picture below. You can also attach to the tenons. If no tenons for dowel or domino construction make a counter piece screwed into the end then attach the template to that.

Now, if this is your first time curve shaping be very careful. Be sure the jig is overhanging the ends by 3 or 4 inches. Take very light cuts using your adjustable collar. In fact before turning the shaper on make dry runs using the feeder. It won’t damage the cutter if turned not to make contact with the workpiece. A lot of curve shaping is knowing what to expect when wood meets cutter.

I see from your drawing your cutters are set up for glass bead removal from the scantling. Normally for curves an additional cutter is required to allow using a 5mm router bit to cut the bead out. That gets expensive. I usually waste the bead out with a rebate cutter then make a separate bead.

7A0B52EE-94EE-4AF4-8001-EDEF2BA32D1D.jpg

Hi Joe, regarding the waste part of the wood, before you profile the piece, do you trim it to the template?

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
here is the sequence for building the rustic white oak door in the picture above.
tenoning of parts before any curves are cut.
Next profiling of inner parts. I call this inside sash profiling even if it’s a door. This particular door had large bolection moulding so inside cut was a simple square edge profile with grooves to holde the base for the mouldings.
.FE47FB64-FE3D-4C68-989F-EA2A3466ED11.jpg
Next assembly with the waste area of the top rail bandsawed to 1/8” plus of the finish cut. The stiles are left long to insure square clamping.
578A82A3-DF9E-4880-B604-CB387835CB8F.jpg
The top outside cut (stormproofing) cut is done first otherwise the chipout would be hard to control at the top of stiles. Here I rough cut the stiles with a jigsaw. 68mm thick white oak is easier to cut on the bandsaw but in the case of this door I left the stile ends for last.
16305EE2-B643-45C4-B8D1-50EF52E4D293.jpg
Next, jig for outside cut is attached using blocks attached to the inside rebate.
2B7CA120-5740-4026-ACBE-D8A38C635253.jpg
Finished outside profile on top.
8E2E83D6-E14D-4CA3-A9F2-1203F1A84879.jpg
Then continue outside profiling of the door using a a false fence to close up for the 220mm diameter cutter and removing 1 mm from the edge in the process.
426E1898-2244-485C-BC45-3B559925836A.jpg
Door with mouldings installed.
45DE3B50-5804-415C-80AA-EEAF3B2CE3F1.jpg

[brent stanley]

Super interesting, thanks Joe.

With the 1mm removal step, the yellow portion of your fence is actually straight (not stepped by 1mm) but the arrangement/position of the cutter underneath is such that it takes 1mm off the whole edge except for the bit riding against the yellow portion? Is that correct? With your CNC fences and spindle height you just have the cutter/fence configurations programmed in so it's fast and easy to set? Could be done with a manual machine but I expect would be much slower.

So if I may ask a question, if you were doing coped tenons with profiled inner edge stiles would any of your steps change? Thanks again for the great pics.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Brent,
on shapers or profilers the fence has to be stepped to remove the 1mm. See photo below, the only purpose of this fence is to close the opening of the 200mm plus profiling cutter.
9D719B6D-2373-44D7-A99E-51B19AECF048.jpg
Especially needed for outside profiling smaller size sash.
A24033A5-2C9F-4A01-BEF9-88243E974528.jpg
I also use this fence and several others like it on both my manual shapers, sure a little longer setup time but if your fences are highly tuned and the shaper has a good fine adjustment not that hard to setup. A lot of days I’m doing 10 to 15 setups and that is where a CNC fence saves time.
For profiled inside cuts on doors and windows the inside profiling cut is different than the door pictured above. I use the split fence removing 1mm from the edge. These cutters are usually smaller diameter and don’t require the add on fence. (Or if working imperial usually 1/16”). The outboard fence could be used for this but on doors that requires many settings on the fence. If your shaper is well tuned and in capable hands this works fine. I do use the outside fence when short cabinet type door pieces are involved and sometimes on tilt turn windows to keep the fit between frame and sash precise.

The door pictured above is a simple square edge detail and only required a groove for profiling. My S4S is clean so no need to remove the entire edge and just used a adjustable groover.