My Timings for Cutting/Routing Sheet Goods with a Guided Tool System

[Kevin Halliburton]

[quote=Paul B. Cresti]Kevin,
Best of luck to you on your forth coming exam schedule,

Thanks Paul - My boss actually wrote much of the new exam in Texas but I can't get a word out of him. It's probably still an advantage. I'm trusting him to make sure I know what I need to know when I'm done with the I.D.P. requirements.

If you have never tried using a format slider for any length of time you will not know what you are missing.

I haven't, well sort of haven't any way, at least not the real deal monster like the one you have. I did use my guide system to effectively create a slider with both a movable fence and table. With that set-up and all the square, repeater and clamping capabilities at my disposal now, I can attach pretty much anything to the guides and mill it, with a variety of blades, at just about any angle, and do it quickly, repeatedly, and accurately, on as many parts as I want to. It's really opened a few doors for me.

How productive does something need to be before it's considered productive? How versatile does something need to be before it's considered versatile? How durable... how repeatable... My guide system isn't a format slider, but in my book it's all of the above and more.

This ain't your momma's shooting board... I think it has a little more potential than most folks realise. Actually, a lot more potential... I don't know where the apex for this guide system is but we are not there yet.

[Dino Makropoulos]

This whole thread was started to see how a Guided Tool System (GTS) stacks up against a slider. I happen to have a Festool system, so that is what I used, but I would expect similar results with an EZ system. I really don't care about exact results, I am just happy to know that the results using an GTS are in the same approximate range as those using a European combo machine equipped with a sliding table.

As with any experiments, multilpe tests are good. So I would welcome any results for similar tasks reported by other.

Nice thread Frank.
With the "Cabinet Maker" the (GTS) can produce cabinet parts
in less than 20 sec per piece.
Most of the time is lost on measuring and setting up the rails.
This timing was on a slow pace and the accuracy within 0.005"

Routing first, is better and faster.
At least 50% faster and even more accurate.
I think you made the right choice going with a (GTS).

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Before everyone starts using the word 'pathetic' thinking it's harmless, I think it's common usage in the US is much more in line with the 2nd definition from this dictionary. That is, it's generally taken as a 'fighting' word.

-------------------
pa·thet·ic
adj.

1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).
2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity
---------------------

Thomas, you may be correct that the word is often used in the more derogatory manner, but the milder use of the word is still correct.

If I'm talking about my female dog, should I not use the word bitch, as some have taken that word to new levels of bad use?

My point was that the use of the word in this case was NOT the derogatory one, but the one that is closer to the first meaning.

Words mean things, and one should not jump to the conclusion that the worst possible meaning is intended, if you are not sure about how a word is used, why not just ask for a clarification???

Give the writer the benefit of the doubt, I would think this would be the default position here on SMC.

Do you remember the story where the city worker got fired for using the word "niggling" do describe the actions of a manager.......?

Someone who had a poor vocabulary overheard the conversation and was "offended" and the person using the word, in the proper way, was fired.

Niggle;
1 a : TRIFLE b : to spend too much effort on minor details
2 : to find fault constantly in a petty way : CARP <she haggles="" she="">niggles, she wears out our patience -- Virginia Woolf>
3 : GNAW
transitive senses : to give stingily or in tiny portions

I bring this up to point out that we should all give each other the benefit of the doubt, and it would be better to assume the best, instead of the worst.

Just my 2 yens worth </she>

[Frank Pellow]

Nice thread Frank.
With the "Cabinet Maker" the (GTS) can produce cabinet parts
in less than 20 sec per piece.
Most of the time is lost on measuring and setting up the rails.
This timing was on a slow pace and the accuracy within 0.005"

Routing first, is better and faster.
At least 50% faster and even more accurate.
I think you made the right choice going with a (GTS).

That's very impressive Dino! I assume that the "Cabinet Maker" is one of your EZ rails with a repeater and with some other supports and jigs.

But, I very much doubt that I could achieve that sort of speed if I had one of your "Cabinet Maker"s in my shop. I would still have set up time, time to bring each sheet from ourside the shop, etc. Heck, I doubt that I could even push the saw that quickly through the plywood.

[Frank Pellow]

I saw this as a very informative post about guided circular saw systems. As Frank said initially, there have been recent discussions about the practicality of using a GCSS for cutting sheet goods instead of a table saw equipped with a sliding table. Frank worked with numbers that were previously provided by a member who owns a MiniMax combo machine, which is not what most of us think of as a typical table saw equipped with a sliding table, but it was the gauge that Frank wanted to work with. Frank ran his comparison and posted his results. I liked the post because it showed that the GCSS, with no brand preference expressed, was a viable alternative to a table saw equipped with a sliding table. When one can get results like those in Frank's post when using a GCSS, it makes such a system a very attractive alternative for many users. Frank didn't make it a Festool only thread, or a Festool versus MiniMax thread. It was a fair objective post by someone who approached it in a fair and objective manner. I really like that type of approach.
I have read so many threads about the F and E systems that I couldn't begin to guess the number of posts that I've read. When I finally waded through all of the disagreements (all too often heated) among the enthusiasts of each system, I was actually able to see the benefits of the GCSS without getting caught up in all of the emotions. I guess the real problem we keep encountering in these threads is one of emotions and perceptions. In this thread some saw it as an attack on production machines, others saw it as an attack on Festool, some saw it as dangerous racing, and possibly there were a few MiniMax owners who saw it as a butt kicking for Festool. But when you weed all that emotion out there is some good information here.

The end result is that Frank illustrated one thing quite clearly, and there were others who concurred, and that was that a GCSS can hold its own when it comes to cutting sheet goods in the typical home shop. In his post it didn't matter if you prefer Festool or EZ Smart, the post showed that GCSS's do have a realistic place in a great many workshops. And it showed that a GCSS can accurately do the final processing of sheet goods with the same accuracy as a table saw. Many of us who use one of the systems already knew this, but Frank's post showed the many who may not own a GCSS that a GCSS is both accurate and fast while providing quality cuts.

Thanks for the great post Frank!

Thanks for the compliments Don. I was attempting to do just what you said and it is good to know that I achieved my objective (at least, with some people).

[tod evans]

maybe somebody could set me straight here? if this "guided circular saw" idea progresses along the lines layed out we will have an induction motor powered blade,(read heavy!) attached to some sort of guide that has very close tolerances along its length,(read linear bearings).....okay, now this monster is accurate and powerfull but there are two issues i haven`t seen addressed, 1) weight and 2) cost, induction motors and linear rails-n-bearings will make this contraption so heavy that it is easier to move the goods than the equipment. and these components don`t come cheap! one thompson bearing will cost almost as much as the porter-cable saw currently in use, and a pair with rails cost more than the whole festool set-up. in fact by following this train of thought, the "new" system now cost and weighs more than the units offered by safety speedcut that have a proven track record on jobsites across the country. so progression of this "idea" all of a sudden is in charted territory...isn`t it possible that portable guided systems are close to the apex of their true ability now? i`m asking........02 tod

[Dino Makropoulos]

Frank.
There many good surprises on the DWC and GTSs
The 20 SEC per piece was ... going very-very slow.
If we can eliminate the measuring-aligning and clamping, what we have left?
Just the cutting.
The "cabinet maker" is made up from two parts.
The self aligning sliding square with one 26" repeater arm.
Much faster than the two repeaters.
But even here we need to rethink the cut.
Due to machine and space limitations, we rip first and cross cut after.
Now we can cross cut first and rip after.
The pieces are much easier to handle, the cross cuts are limited to 3 cuts per panel.
The rip cuts are less than 24" and we don't need to set up two repeaters.

If you think that was fast...Imagine this now.

4 consecutive dimensional cross cuts. 4" x 24"on 3/4" ply.
Less than 13 sec.
But the best part of all this, is the safety and accuracy.
No more kickbacks and no more mistakes.

I'm sure one day soon you will cut your timing in 1/2.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

But the best part of all this, is the safety and accuracy.
No more kickbacks and no more mistakes.

Dino you are speaking for yourself here, I know that with anything I use there are going to be mistakes, MY mistakes

The old grey matter just goes "Hiccup" sometimes......nothing to do with the wood working machinery.....

Cheers!

[Frank Pellow]

maybe somebody could set me straight here? if this "guided circular saw" idea progresses along the lines layed out we will have an induction motor powered blade,(read heavy!) attached to some sort of guide that has very close tolerances along its length,(read linear bearings).....okay, now this monster is accurate and powerfull but there are two issues i haven`t seen addressed, 1) weight and 2) cost, induction motors and linear rails-n-bearings will make this contraption so heavy that it is easier to move the goods than the equipment. and these components don`t come cheap! one thompson bearing will cost almost as much as the porter-cable saw currently in use, and a pair with rails cost more than the whole festool set-up. in fact by following this train of thought, the "new" system now cost and weighs more than the units offered by safety speedcut that have a proven track record on jobsites across the country. so progression of this "idea" all of a sudden is in charted territory...isn`t it possible that portable guided systems are close to the apex of their true ability now? i`m asking........02 tod

Tod, I fail to see why such a saw is needed. The present repetoire of circular saws seems to be performing accurately and standing up to heavy use.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank.
There many good surprises on the DWC and GTSs
The 20 SEC per piece was ... going very-very slow.
If we can eliminate the measuring-aligning and clamping, what we have left?
Just the cutting.
The "cabinet maker" is made up from two parts.
The self aligning sliding square with one 26" repeater arm.
Much faster than the two repeaters.
But even here we need to rethink the cut.
Due to machine and space limitations, we rip first and cross cut after.
Now we can cross cut first and rip after.
The pieces are much easier to handle, the cross cuts are limited to 3 cuts per panel.
The rip cuts are less than 24" and we don't need to set up two repeaters.
...

Dino, I think that I understand (although a detailed picture sequence would help).

You said: "what we have left? Just the cutting." You forgot some things thing we have left. As I said before, in my shop I would need to include setup and tear down time for the table. And everyone needs to include the time taken to get the plywood and to position it on the table. Everyone also has to take the time to deal with the wood that has been cut in order to get it marked and piled neatly somewhere so that it is not in the way of the next set up cuts.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino you are speaking for yourself here, I know that with anything I use there are going to be mistakes, MY mistakes

The old grey matter just goes "Hiccup" sometimes......nothing to do with the wood working machinery.....

Cheers!

Stu.
My mistake.
I thought, if I can cut without mistakes, anyone can.
With 100 things on my mind...
I like to leave the "thinking" to the tool.

Cheers from Edison.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Tod, I fail to see why such a saw is needed. The present repetoire of circular saws seems to be performing accurately and standing up to heavy use.

Frank,
Tod was speaking in regards to the comment that a GCSS could be made into a heavy duty production type machine. I think his final question/observation is as is the GCSS may have reached its peak as far as its use.

I can see how a one man shop, if one wants to not spend any money, can use a GCSS to cut sheetgoods and some solid stock (within limits). At the same time this will only be straight cuts. I have not seen any way to repeatably cut angles, miters and compound angles. As far as the size of the shop.... I would say it would have to be a hobbiest or part time professional doing one-offs. When it starts to enter a more "production type" scenario be it either more employees or more volume a stationary machine dedicated to a task becomes more econmical and easier to use. Something like a format slider in processing sheetgoods (for this example) only requires one to lay the sheet on the outrigger. All the operator needs to do is slide the table and rotate the sheet as needed...all the fence settings and crosscut stops are preset. There is no manuvering of rails or saws or clamps or jigs or making sure you are on a support table. When the format slider becomes to slow...in comes a CNC router....then another and then maybe a CNC beam saw where stacks of sheets can be cut. I have no experience on these so this is only from my "understanding". One you reach those levels all you do is press a button

Again I repeat myself in saying the GCSS is great invention in allowing the "regular joe" a way to process sheetgoods, a way to handle this work on the job site but it has its limitations. Talk to anyone using a format slider and ask their opinion, talk to someone using both a format slider and a GCSS and see what they say. If you have not used both you can not honestly give a real view on both.

We all can share our experiences on what "works for us" but to think this new invention, GCSS, that does fits a great nitch will outproduce industrial equipment is just plain wrong.

[tod evans]

paul is correct, i`m wondering if these units haven`t reached the apex of their usefulness vs cost? here`s a link to the safety speedcut unit i spoke of that contractors/jobshops have been using for years.
http://www.panelsaw.com/products_combos_sr5u.htm
.02 tod

[Kevin Halliburton]

maybe somebody could set me straight here? if this "guided circular saw" idea progresses along the lines layed out we will have an induction motor powered blade,(read heavy!) attached to some sort of guide that has very close tolerances along its length,(read linear bearings).....okay, now this monster is accurate and powerfull but there are two issues i haven`t seen addressed, 1) weight and 2) cost, induction motors and linear rails-n-bearings will make this contraption so heavy that it is easier to move the goods than the equipment. and these components don`t come cheap! one thompson bearing will cost almost as much as the porter-cable saw currently in use, and a pair with rails cost more than the whole festool set-up. in fact by following this train of thought, the "new" system now cost and weighs more than the units offered by safety speedcut that have a proven track record on jobsites across the country. so progression of this "idea" all of a sudden is in charted territory...isn`t it possible that portable guided systems are close to the apex of their true ability now? i`m asking........02 tod

Maybe all of those things can get smaller, lighter and more affordable and maybe they won't all be necessary at all.

"The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." Patent Office Commissioner Henry Ellsworth - 1843 report to Congress.

Boy, wouldn't I love to instant message that guy and ask him when we should expect the presaged arrival of that imagined apex! I can't get anything over on you guys but I bet my guide system would impress the heck out of him.

[Allen Grimes]

If you have not used both you can not honestly give a real view on both.

Paul,

Like I said earlier (I think), I have not used either system. My view of these 2 systems is from the outside looking in, even though one day, I will use both, I really dont know all that much about either one right now.

But Im looking at this whole thing from a logical/common sense stand point. It seems illogical to me for somebody to think that a GTS system can compete with a Format Slider on a production level. Frank, I am not talking about you.

Another thing about this thread is that it is a comparison of one retired hobbyist to another. I'm sure you, Paul, could double or even triple the times that Charlie posted, and if you cant now, Im sure that someday with more experience you woud be able to. Where would that leave this comparison?

Kevin,

The problem is that you are taking this comparison for more than what it is. You are not taking into account all of the important things. I remember when Charlie first got his combo machine and it was not too long ago. Im not sure how long ago it was but Im thinking a year maybe? Also you have to take into account that neither he nor Frank were working at production speeds and that they are both retired hobbyists.

I dont think that we would get even close to the same results if we had someone running their production shop routine with a FSlider vs say Dino, doing the same cuts with his system.

Kevin, I know that you are happy with your system and you should be. Right now I would be happy with anything I can get, but I think that what you are saying is more along the lines of wishful thinking than anything else.