In Memoriam
Allen,
Thanks for the kind words about my website. I try. As to "pathetic" I meant it in a non-defaming way...and certainly not to Dino as a person. I dont know him butI respect him for what he does and has created. My pique is really with the constant need for comparison to Festool.
I wont go on, because Stu has stated my position way better than I could, and I think he is more impartial.
In any case, no offense meant.
John Lucas
woodshopdemos
Member
Wow, luckily I am up late tonight and can clear things up before this goes any further.
To John, I appologize if I misunderstood you, but I never knew the word pathetic to be anything but bad, so I guess thats why I looked at it as an insult.
Stu and John,
I understand where you are coming from, on the EZ vs Festool subject. Everybody wants to have the best tools so they always have to make the ones they own look better. I personally know nothing about EZ Smart and, John, the reason I started looking at your site in the first place was because of the Festool demos.
Honestly though, this EZ vs Festool topic is not a discussion I ever want to get involved with. I'm not a fan of arguing, even though it may seem so sometimes. I just come here to learn and hopefully someday I will be able to help somebody out too.
I do have one last observation of my own, this whole thread was started to see how Festool stacks up against a slider, so I dont think it is wrong for an EZ system owner to want to see how their system stacks up.
That's all I have to say on the subject. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I only did what I thought was right. Goodnight
Member
Hey Allen, I'm very happy that you took my observations in the manner in which they were intended, thanks for that.
You have a good night as well, I hope there are a few "Negra Modelos" in your future
Cheers!
[OP]
Guest
This whole thread was started to see how a Guided Tool System (GTS) stacks up against a slider. I happen to have a Festool system, so that is what I used, but I would expect similar results with an EZ system. I really don't care about exact results, I am just happy to know that the results using an GTS are in the same approximate range as those using a European combo machine equipped with a sliding table.Originally Posted by Allen Grimes
As with any experiments, multilpe tests are good. So I would welcome any results for similar tasks reported by other.
[OP]
Guest
Yes Tod, I have a small shop and I am a hobbiest who cuts a few sheets per week (and not every week at that).
But, I do believe that my system could stand up the heavier use (say an average of 4 hours a day). There have been a few days in the two years that I have owned it when I used my Festool circular saw for 6 to 8 hours and it did not appear to get too hot. I think that all I would need is a set of sharpened blades on hand.
Member
"don`t you guys think industry would have addopted this technology years ago if it where a viable alternative to costly production equipment?"
Guide systems, with capabilities beyond simple shooting boards, are still in their infancy. CNC level monster saws, for huge production runs, are here to stay but the industry has changed the way it does things more than once. Guide systems are getting better all the time. Who knows what the future holds for certain, but I'll wager that guide system saws, for high production, non-CNC sized shops, will be a major part of it. I wouldn't even be surprised to see guide systems, fully automated, and ripping their way through stacks of sheet goods every day within the next five years.
The guides are getting better - The saws are coming along. No doubt the saws can get better, and they will, but ask a post war California framer if a circular saw can handle day in and day out production cutting in a rough environment. There were cut men on some of those framing crews that only set their circular saws down for lunch. Yea - circular saws can hang, and with a solid guide system, they can hang with remarkable accuracy.
Right now, there are a few heavy hitting circular saws on the market that adapt well to a guide system, but I'll further wager there will be an induction motor guided saw system, that will make those saws look weak, in the very near future.
The industry is ripe for change - five years can see a total revolution. I'm just thankful that in these apples to whatever comparisons, there are a few quirky individuals who see a little more potential in their apples than the rest of us. As this thread illustrates - the results can be surprising.
Can you believe what these guide systems are cabable of today? Just imagine what the future holds...
Last edited by Kevin Halliburton; 02-27-2006 at 8:41 AM.
Member
kevin, i could very well be all wet here and please correct me if i`m wrong, but aren`t vertical panel saws,sliders and beam saws guided systems with induction motors? .02 tod
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN; I ACCEPT FULL LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY POSTS ON THIS FORUM, ALL POSTS ARE MADE IN GOOD FAITH CONTAINING FACTUAL INFORMATION AS I KNOW IT.
Member
Boy does this topic always get interesting results. I think everyone knows my feelings on the subject so I will not say anything more in those regards. Truth is each tool has its place and its use. Some tools excell at specific tasks while others can perform many other ones also and equally well.<O
<O
The term "slider" tends to get misused a bit in the sense that the type of slider should be more specific. I am not being picky here but there are major inherent differences here. Here are the types of "sliders" I am aware of: 1) Format slider - newer ones are alum sliding carriage and table varying in sizes from 4'-0' up to 12'-0"?? (all of these sliders have the sliding table right next to the blade), 2) cast iron or other material sliding tables - kind of like a crosscut sled but to the left side of the blade and at the same level to the main table (there is a distance between the sliding table and the blade), 3) the aluminum/tube steel sliders like the Exaktor or Excaliber - which are similar to the above cast iron sliders but they can be a bit bigger to handle larger sheets in crosscutting abilities (but once again there is a distance between the sliding table and the blade), 4) then of course there are some of the old style cast iron top sliders like the Tannewitz & Oliver..... which are called a hardwood slider but are much shorter than the others in size and travel (these are right next to the blade)
<O
I think that covers the "sliders" but note the next to the blade and distance to the blade .....that is a big difference. Also note that only the Format slider allows the table length and travel distance to "rip" and crosscut stock up to 12'-0" long, wide....or whatever. <O
<O
As far as use goes that is both a concrete and subjective notion. There are many environments for use: job site, small pro shop, large pro shop, production environment, small hobbyist shop and large hobbyist shop and I am sure we could all add more. Some people will say, “Time is of the essence” others will say, “I want to do this only once”. Then of course you add in the $$ thing and that can be as varied as the site for use itself. So as we can see we will all have different views. I will even add one more thing to that…..someone whom has used both a guided saw system, a slider of some type, a vertical saw, a beam saw, a CNC router….. and once again you will get a different view. I almost forgot to mention what you will be cutting… solid stock, sheetgoods, both or even if it is even a wood product or not!
Now I have had the pleasure of using both an EFSTS and a GCSS and they both have their limitations and strengths. For me, the GCSS was about portability and job site use. I have actually sold my GCSS off because I no longer need those aspects any more. The only thing I feel I have lost is the ability to do that “one quick cut” otherwise my EFSTS does what I need it to and more, once again in my situation. IF I were ever to expand my sheetgood production a mass production needs I would not even thing twice about getting a CNC router. If I went in super high production I most likely would add a beam saw, some type of transport system and a full automated shop…. a very different scenario.
Bottom line is not one of these systems will replace the other as they each have their place and need. What we now have is an abundance of choices for many given scenarios. <O
Member
Tod, You're not wet, you're right. In the factory you lay the panel on the cnc router or point to point, turn it on, then pick up the pieces. It's all guided on rails or slides. The work piece stays still, the cutting tool moves. Same for metal.
The guides for cicular saws have introduced this speed, accuracy and safety to the jobsite and small shop. Change is hard.
As for the 'race' against time, it's called production. Reduce the time it takes to make a product. The challenge is there for those who don't think it's possible. Many inventions go through the same scenario.
As for 'pathetic', I think some attitudes are pathetic, but the change coming about with guided saws is more 'prophetic'.
Russ
Member
Well yea... see, I told you it was coming sooner than you think!
Actually, I was slicing my apples at a little different angle but you do make a good point - industry has already adopted stationary guided saw systems in a big way. We've finally reached the point where those systems are truly mobile, far more versatile and every bit as accurate - I believe those advances, coupled with affordability, and improvements in the mobile versions of the saws, will radically change the industry in the next five years.
You can mark my words, or have your dog do it, but guide systems are going head to head with some of the big boy saws already. It won't be long before some of those saws start to give way to the superior performance of the far more affordable and productive guide system tools that are just over the next horizon.
Member
Frank,
I know that this thread wasn't about Festool, but guided saws in general, but the fact is you did use a Festool, so it is only natural for an EZ Smart owner to want to see how their guided saw system stacks up, if that is important to them.
I actually thought that this thread was very interesting. I really like the Festool GTS in general, but it is definately not something that I could see myself using on a large production scale.
To Stu,
There will definately be a few Negra Modelos in my future.
To Kevin,
Im sure if somebody ever did make a GCS system like you are talking about, it wouldnt be as affordable" as you think. Tool businesses are out to make money, not to make things "affordable". But good luck
Member
kevin, i think you hit on the real reason most folks find this type of system so attractive, cost.Well yea... see, I told you it was coming sooner than you think!
Actually, I was slicing my apples at a little different angle but you do make a good point - industry has already adopted stationary guided saw systems in a big way. We've finally reached the point where those systems are truly mobile, far more versatile and every bit as accurate - I believe those advances, coupled with affordability, and improvements in the mobile versions of the saws, will radically change the industry in the next five years.
You can mark my words, or have your dog do it, but guide systems are going head to head with some of the big boy saws already. It won't be long before some of those saws start to give way to the superior performance of the far more affordable and productive guide system tools that are just over the next horizon.
.02 tod
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN; I ACCEPT FULL LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY POSTS ON THIS FORUM, ALL POSTS ARE MADE IN GOOD FAITH CONTAINING FACTUAL INFORMATION AS I KNOW IT.
Member
I didn't read the whole thread so others may have said this too. I don't like the idea of racing with cutting. Fingers come off in about .2sec each and I'm rather attached to mine.
That said, it is still interesting to compare productivity and I wondered how the festool stuff was for time.
[OP]
Guest
Right you are Andrew. I wasn't racing. Nor was Charlie.
Member
Affordable is a relative term. I don't think it will be as pricey as you imagine, but "affordable" could be pretty darn expensive relative to currently available options. At any rate, it's not a matter of if but when...
Could you envision a serious comparison of cut times between a guided saw system and a Minimax even five years ago? Well, here we are... Once enough people start seeing beyond the glorified shooting board potential of these systems, and they get beyond the shortsightedness of the shooting board manufacturer debates to the actual concepts being promoted, it's going to get real interesting in a hurry.
It hasn't been all that long ago that Mr. Biessemyer was trying to convince the world that table saws needed a fence. Now there are jigs and fixtures for just about anything you want to attempt on a table saw. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that there was no such thing as a table saw at all - certainly not an "affordable" one. Guided saw systems are ripe for similar development and there are some pretty inovative minds already on it.
Not only will you see far better guide system saws pretty darn quick, but in the next five years I believe you will see an influx of jig and fixture development for the guide systems that will begin to expand their capabilities on par with the table saw phenomenon once it took off.
Of course, maybe I just got a defective crystal ball. They threw it in for free when I ordered my rose colored glasses. I like my world - lots of pretty colors... and no one is missing their fingers.
I have no affiliation with any manufacturer but I do have a well accessorised guide system. It regularly bends my mind with its potential. Maybe that's why I'm starting to see things...
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