Are japanese chipbreakers set like western chipbreakers

[Paul Bent]

Thank you Stan. I have more faith in understanding where to place the hollow in regards to the hammer strike and supporting surface and why.

[Stanley Covington]

Thank you Stan. I have more faith in understanding where to place the hollow in regards to the hammer strike and supporting surface and why.

You are welcome Paul. Despite their simple appearance, Japanese hiraganna planes are extremely sophisticated tools, and because of that sophistication, they can be a pain in the butt, with uradashi being perhaps the most difficult maintenance operation. I hope my explanation helps you to get your plane up and running again.

Stan.

[Paul Bent]

Ok two more questions. How hard and how close to the edge should I get. I can't see a laminate line in the blade. And I don't seem to be moving any metal. How many strikes offhand would you guess to start seeing something. I've probably done 30 with no apparent change.

And another. Why do my shavings and board (pine) have a much higher sheen even with the same thickness of shaving (translucent) compared with western planes sharpened the same way and same grit. BU and BD planes. I've set my plane so that it has 2 contact points.

[Brian Holcombe]

Paul, can you post a picture of what you've got so far?

[Paul Bent]

Will do it in the am.

[Steve Voigt]

Why do my shavings and board (pine) have a much higher sheen even with the same thickness of shaving (translucent) compared with western planes sharpened the same way and same grit. BU and BD planes. I've set my plane so that it has 2 contact points.

Without physically being in your shop it's impossible to say for sure, but here are some factors that could contribute:

- Your Japanese planes may be bedded at a lower angle than your Western (BD) planes. On a straight-grained board where tearout is not an issue, a lower angle will produce a more reflective surface. For BU planes, same thing, except the relevant metric is the effective cutting angle.

- Your Western irons may be A2 or some other high-alloy steel, and it may be impossible to get them as sharp as the very fine-grained, high-carbon steel in your Japanese irons. Or, it may not be possible to get them as sharp with whatever sharpening media you're using.

- The metal soles (I'm just assuming your Western planes are metal, I could be wrong) could be affecting the surface, particularly if there is any roughness to them.

- The chipbreakers on your Western (BD) planes may be set closer to the cutting edge, and/or the leading angle may be blunter. On a softwood like pine, a very close-set chipbreaker can have a detrimental effect on surface quality.

Some of these factors are more likely than others; the first one (bed angle or effective cutting angle) is a biggie. But the main thing to do is experiment.

[Patrick Chase]

Without physically being in your shop it's impossible to say for sure, but here are some factors that could contribute:

- Your Japanese planes may be bedded at a lower angle than your Western (BD) planes. On a straight-grained board where tearout is not an issue, a lower angle will produce a more reflective surface. For BU planes, same thing, except the relevant metric is the effective cutting angle.

While this is a very credible explanation in general, my experience is that most people who are skilled enough to get translucent shavings and high sheen with *any* plane are cognizant of cutting angle.

- Your Western irons may be A2 or some other high-alloy steel, and it may be impossible to get them as sharp as the very fine-grained, high-carbon steel in your Japanese irons. Or, it may not be possible to get them as sharp with whatever sharpening media you're using.

Same remark as for edge angle - it would surprise me if somebody could get translucent shavings without being attuned to the sharpness (or lack thereof) of their irons.

- The metal soles (I'm just assuming your Western planes are metal, I could be wrong) could be affecting the surface, particularly if there is any roughness to them.

Note that in the 2-contact-point setup that Paul described the freshly planed wood isn't touched by the sole of the Japanese plane at all, so that's a *big* difference.

- The chipbreakers on your Western (BD) planes may be set closer to the cutting edge, and/or the leading angle may be blunter. On a softwood like pine, a very close-set chipbreaker can have a detrimental effect on surface quality.

Yep. Close-set cap irons don't degrade surface finish as much as high cutting angles, but they do degrade it a bit.

[Warren Mickley]

The placement of the cap iron is an art. It is not as if one can just follow some formula and have a fine surface. You can't say "oh look, the shaving is straight" and then proclaim the surface perfect. It takes experience, knowledge of your material, discernment and judgement. It is a great help to do stock preparation by hand because one has some intimacy with the timber long before taking the final strokes. A cap iron that is set too close will make a mess of the surface.

I see lots of people get translucent shavings without being exceptionally sharp; the surface tells the story. It could be that Paul has neglected the back of his BU or BD plane iron, and that his Japanese iron with its recent work and its hollow is in better shape. I guess he likely he has some kind of high chrome iron.

[Steve Voigt]

While this is a very credible explanation in general, my experience is that most people who are skilled enough to get translucent shavings and high sheen with *any* plane are cognizant of cutting angle.
…
Same remark as for edge angle - it would surprise me if somebody could get translucent shavings without being attuned to the sharpness (or lack thereof) of their irons.

Neither I nor you really is in a position to say what the OP knows, or doesn't know. It seems safer not to assume.

[Stewie Simpson]

A cap iron that is set too close will make a mess of the surface.

Nicely stated Warren; some others are still playing catch with their idea of a super duper tight clearance on their cap iron.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Nicely stated Warren; some others are still playing catch with their idea of a super duper tight clearance on their cap iron.

Stewie;

And yet some others were insisting that high angles were the One True Solution For Tearout (tm) as recently as a few months back.

The funny thing is that everybody here said the same thing: Very closely set cap irons can compromise surface quality, and may explain what Mark saw. Nothing remotely Earth-shaking there.

[jamie shard]

Just some advice from someone who also chipped his blade (actually a chisel blade) the first time he tried it...

You can be quite far back from the edge with your hammer taps and still move metal. Nowhere close to the edge and actually a fair distance away from the lamination line. Trust that eventually enough taps will move the metal.

Check progress by rubbing on the sharpening stone. When you first see that your edge is moving downward you will be happy. You will need to keep going to get the ura, don't rush, just keep going with the small taps.

Listen to the sound of the anvil. If it "clicks" or "rattles" then the tap wasn't right over the anvil. Adjust until you get a nice dull tone, where the force of the hammer is going straight through the blade and right into the anvil.

I used the endgrain of some hardwood as an anvil the second time I tried (the first time I was successful). It was more forgiving but I was also going a lot slower and tapping a lot further from the edge.

Did I mention to trust that it will work and go slow and keep your taps well away from the edge?

[Paul Bent]

Having trouble uploading. Is there a file size limit? 2k+? 20161014_094923.jpg

On another note, I was able to finally get it to move the metal. I'm at 1/8th" now. Kind of a serpentine shape initially but I will get better. Now I have to figure out why I am jamming in one corner but search will be my friend.