cheeks and shoulders

[Mike Cogswell]

LN has this video with Deneb demoing how to do it. Although, unless I'm working a long tenon I don't usually bother to support the free floating side of the sole with a second board of the same thickness. Rather I just make sure to very firmly plant my weight on the part of the sole contacting the board just behind the tenon shoulder. The second board does make things easier to get accurate, but I'm too lazy to bother thicknessing an extra board - it would make more sense if I were doing my thickness with a power planer I guess.

Thanks Chris. So, he supports it on both sides, which is what I expected. Like you, I'm too lazy to thickness extra parts just to hold up half my router plane. My tenons tend to be long through tenons, which is why I hadn't considered using the router. I cut the shoulders using Waring's first class cuts, so the mating edge has a nice clean chisel visible fit and have just made any slight adjustments to the cheeks with a block plane. I would be very sad if I had to remove anywhere near as much material from the cheeks as was done in that video. It makes no sense to me to saw them that much oversize, and I do not pretend to be an expert sawyer by any stretch of the imagination. Waring's second class cuts generally yield a usable tenon.

[ian maybury]

Pardon me guys if i've been a bit vague. What I guess i've been playing around with is the thought (put more explicitly) that while we like to judge/pass comment on tools, methods and the like that it's possible (as Sean said) that we're talking past each other. As in applying differing criteria to reach conclusions. We're maybe each perceiving very different woodworking worlds.

What does 'good work' actually mean? Is it even work at all? Do we mean:

Working by the most cost and time efficient method of completing a woodworking task?
Working using those tools we happen to have or are familiar with?
Working to the highest possible standards of design, precision and/or standard of finish without regard for cost and time?
Working using the method that 'feels' best to us, that at some deep level feels like its what we are meant to do?
Working dogmatically with what we figure are methods that were used in years gone by?
Working without the use of modern machinery?
Working using only the very latest technologies?
Working to produce the blingiest possible result?
Working to maximise our personal skill set?
Working to appeal to the art house tendency?
Working to maximise our bragging rights?
Working to ??????

Guess i'm saying that there can be an awful lot of outcomes that we're seeking to achieve, and that most of us are running rather complicated and finely nuanced sets of balanced multiple beliefs - with the result that heaven knows what criteria we are applying in how we perceive a given topic.

Maybe it was all a lot easier back in the day when resources were very limited, and it was about making a living. You could hold all the high falluting views you liked, but in the end if you wanted yourself and your family to survive it seemed to be very much about following the money....

ian

[Jack Curtis]

It is easier to adjust a tenon than a mortise.

But there really shouldn't be all that much adjustment going on here. It's very easy to mark based on mortise chisel and saw to the marks. It's really easy to chop with that mortise chisel and make a mortise that doesn't need adjusting. I know this, and only ever got into trouble when trying to smooth mortise cheeks with a paring chisel. And I know that if a joint is too tight, I'd trim the tenon, not the mortise. If it's too loose, glue some wood to the tenon cheeks.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Chris. So, he supports it on both sides, which is what I expected. Like you, I'm too lazy to thickness extra parts just to hold up half my router plane. My tenons tend to be long through tenons, which is why I hadn't considered using the router. I cut the shoulders using Waring's first class cuts, so the mating edge has a nice clean chisel visible fit and have just made any slight adjustments to the cheeks with a block plane. I would be very sad if I had to remove anywhere near as much material from the cheeks as was done in that video. It makes no sense to me to saw them that much oversize, and I do not pretend to be an expert sawyer by any stretch of the imagination. Waring's second class cuts generally yield a usable tenon.

Yeah I wouldn't use this method on long tenons either. Fortunately, this is rarely and issue for me. I will say that when needed, instead of milling an extra piece you can just grap on of the the other pieces that will have a tenon cut on it (most the time there is more than one apron or stile). Of course, if your prepping by hand you'd still need to take a little extra time to make sure your pieces are all thickness the same, which really isn't necessary in a lot of handtool work. Sounds like a block rabbet plane or wide shoulder plane might be a better option for you. I have a router plane so thats what I use. It works well for what I do so I haven't bothered to pop for a wide rabbet plane. Who knows, if I had one perhaps I gravitate towards that instead. We may find out sooner than later, tax return season is coming up and a large shoulder plane is near the top of my wish list.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan---I applaud your skill if you can cut a perfect tenon direct from the saw.....I certainly aspire to that goal....but if you need to trim one which would you reach for: the skew (kiwa ganna) or the LN rabbet block? And if you're working direct from the saw, what type of saw do you prefer?

Jeff:

If I need to shave one, I use a kiwa ganna http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/modul...ndex.php?id=31. But they can be pain in the butt to set up and sharpen, so the LN skew rabbet is my next choice, followed closely by the LN rabbet block.

I have no problems with using a chisel, but in my opinion, a plane is easier to control, more precise, and quicker on big tenons, which are the ones that seem to invite the most shaving.


To answer your question about my choice of saws, I am a saw addict and have far too many. I need a 12-step program. I match my saw to the wood. For hardwoods, I like a Western tooth. For softwood, I like a Japanese tooth. Last summer I cut a ton of tenons in what seemed like a 40’ container of Keruing, an Indonesian wood sometimes called Apitong. Dense, hard, resinous, and full of nasty silica. I cut the big tenons with an old George Bishop backsaw (sash?) I filed to rip (and sharpened frequently). GB knew how to make a good saw. It is my best backsaw for big hardwood tenons. For even bigger tenons I use a Disston No.12 rip saw or even a Skillsaw with a super thin carbide-tipped blade. For smaller tenons in hardwood, I use an L-N tenon saw or an old Disston. For softwoods, I use a handmade kataba ripsaw with smallish teeth (graduated). It cuts beautifully. I also use a Zeton kaeba ripsaw with Teflon-coated blades.

For shoulders, the only type of saw worth considering is the dozuki. I understand that some Americans/Europeans use dozuki for cutting dovetails, etc., but that way lays madness. The dozuki is intended specifically for cutting shoulders, ergo the name. I have a beautiful handmade dozuki, which never touches anything but well-behaved softwood. It cuts fast and true as a fish through water, but the teeth are delicate. For most everything else, I use a Zeton kaeba dozuki.

There is a trick taught to me by an old professional saw sharpener 30 some odd years ago you might want to try if you have a strong stomach. Remove the sawblade and lay it on a very flat surface. Lay a flat hard Washita stone (this won’t work with waterstones) lengthwise on the blade with one edge of the stone resting on the teeth and other on the plate. Now, gently and without any downward pressure, pull the stone from point to handle. A single stroke only. Lightly now! Repeat on the opposite side. Then be sure to spray the teeth with WD-40, or wash it in some other solvent to remove the stone grit and metal fillings from the gullets. This is very important. I know, this sounds bizzare, even immoral, but it works. Removing that little bit of excess set will make the saw cut like a champ, even if it reduces the blade’s lifespan somewhat.

I can also share a few tricks for cutting tenon cheeks and shoulders quickly and precisely. Take them or leave them, but know that I did not invent them, I just “stole” them, as they say in Japan, from men that had been cutting M&T joints by hand for 50+ years when I met them, so you might find them useful. I know I did. Many of you will already know these tricks, so forgive me if I ramble a bit.

The first trick is obvious, but not everyone uses it. Use the same marking gauge and the same settings for laying out both the mortise and tenon (assuming the faces of both pieces are intended to be flush). Use a mortise gauge, or a pair of single gauges, with SHARP cutters. I use a Kinshiro twin bladed mortise gauge for tenons. Don’t cut any deeper than is necessary to make a clear line. The chisel cuts to the inside of the line. The saw to the outside. But remember, the “line” is the width of the gauge’s blade where it cut the wood, and so is very very thin. Thinner than your eye can see. With practice, you will develop an instinct for where to cut in relation to this line with chisel and saw to get a perfect fit without shaving tenon cheeks.

Another key is to use a good sharp marking knife to cut layout lines for shoulders. I cannot overstate the importance of this knife being rigid and sharper than any store-bought razorblade. It must also be flat on one side, not double beveled (spear point is OK, but not ideal since they tend to be less stable against the layout square). When you layout with this knife, the flat should face to your left with the tenon to the right. Your good saw will ride this line down into the wood, so it must be perfect. Remember, you cannot make a good saw do anything it doesn’t want to do, so give it a good line to follow. I don't mean deep as blue bayou, just straight, true and clean.

Another trick is one many already use, I am sure, but it bears repeating. Make a shoulder-sawing jig. This jig should be sized in proportion to the tenon shoulders you are cutting. I have a big one, a medium, and a small one. The medium-sized one is a stable board (I used hinoki, but most any stable, well-behaved wood will work) about 3/4” thick by 10” long by 3” wide. It has a slot in the center for 2 fingers to fit through. It has a lip along one edge that projects below the surface of the board about 3/8”. All six edges are straight and true and square. You use it like this: After cutting the layout lines for the shoulder, place the marking knife in the cut with the flat facing to the left, away from the tenon. Make a right angle between the knife’s flat and the face of the workpiece. Then place the jig on the top surface of the workpiece with the lip indexing along its length, and gently push it up against the flat of the marking knife. If your jig is straight and true and square, and you have positioned it properly, the jigs’ right end will form a plane oriented at a perfect 90 degrees to the length of the workpiece, and 90 degrees to the face, and centered perfectly over the center of the cut made by the marking knife. And all without even eyeballing the line. Very precise, very fast, almost foolproof.

Now, using your very sharp dozuki, place the blade gently against the face of jig, rest its teeth on the surface to be cut, and check to make sure it is perfectly aligned. If you are right handed, the jig will be held in position with your left hand, and the dozuki in your right. Now pull straight back to begin cutting. If your posture and body position are right, and your eyeball is located properly, and you truly pull straight back without a looping motion, the jig will guide the blade and the cut will be perfect. The jig also helps you detect any lateral swing in your saw stroke, a tendency you must overcome. With practice, this can be accomplished and repeated again and again very accurately and very quickly and without any Mickey Mouse paring. It is a skill, like riding a bicycle that, once learned by your body, is permanently retained. The next skill you must develop is to sense the depth of the saw's teeth in the cut so you don't not cut too deeply. That can be difficult when you are cutting tenons shoulders at high speed.

The key to precision M&T joints (or any joint for that matter) is not having expensive saws or special planes or expensive chisels. The key is to train yourself to make the “cutting machine” that is comprised of the saw/chisel/hammer, your body, your eyeball, and your brain. And the key to making the “cutting machine” is to believe it can be done (faith), and to work towards that goal with every stroke of your saw and wack of your hammer. Have more faith in your arm and eyeball than in your paring chisel. You can do it.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Reposting since it became lost somewhere.

Originally Posted by Jeff Bartley
Stan---I applaud your skill if you can cut a perfect tenon direct from the saw.....I certainly aspire to that goal....but if you need to trim one which would you reach for: the skew (kiwa ganna) or the LN rabbet block? And if you're working direct from the saw, what type of saw do you prefer?
Jeff:

If I need to shave a tenon cheek, I use a kiwa ganna http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/modul...ndex.php?id=31. But they can be pain in the butt to set up and sharpen, so the LN skew rabbet is my next choice, followed closely by the LN rabbet block.

I have no problems with using a chisel, but in my opinion, a plane is easier to control, more precise, and quicker on big tenons, which are the ones that seem to invite the most shaving.


To answer your question about my choice of saws, I am a saw addict and have far too many. I need a 12-step program. I match my saw to the wood. For hardwoods, I like a Western tooth. For softwood, I like a Japanese tooth. Last summer I cut a ton of tenons in what seemed like a 40’ container of Keruing, an Indonesian wood sometimes called Apitong. Dense, hard, resinous, and full of nasty silica. I cut the big tenons with an old George Bishop backsaw (sash?) I filed to rip (and sharpened frequently). GB knew how to make a good saw. It is my best backsaw for big hardwood tenons. For even bigger tenons I use a Disston No.12 rip saw or even a Skillsaw with a super thin carbide-tipped blade. For smaller tenons in hardwood, I use an L-N tenon saw or an old Disston. For softwoods, I use a handmade kataba ripsaw with smallish teeth (graduated). It cuts beautifully. I also use a Zeton kaeba ripsaw with Teflon-coated blades.

For shoulders, the only type of saw worth considering is the dozuki. I understand that some Americans/Europeans use dozuki for cutting dovetails, etc., but that way lays madness. The dozuki is intended specifically for cutting shoulders, ergo the name. I have a beautiful handmade dozuki, which never touches anything but well-behaved softwood. It cuts fast and true as a fish through water, but the teeth are delicate. For most everything else, I use a Zeton kaeba dozuki.

There is a trick taught to me by an old professional saw sharpener 30 some odd years ago you might want to try if you have a strong stomach. Remove the sawblade and lay it on a very flat surface. Lay a flat hard Washita stone (this won’t work with waterstones) lengthwise on the blade with one edge of the stone resting on the teeth and other on the plate. Now, gently and without any downward pressure, pull the stone from point to handle. A single stroke only. Lightly now! Repeat on the opposite side. Then be sure to spray the teeth with WD-40, or wash it in some other solvent to remove the stone grit and metal fillings from the gullets. This is very important. I know, this sounds bizzare, even immoral, but it works. Removing that little bit of excess set will make the saw cut like a champ, even if it reduces the blade’s lifespan somewhat.

I can also share a few tricks for cutting tenon cheeks and shoulders quickly and precisely. Take them or leave them, but know that I did not invent them, I just “stole” them, as they say in Japan, from men that had been cutting M&T joints by hand for 50+ years when I met them, so you might find them useful. I know I did. Many of you will already know these tricks, so forgive me if I ramble a bit.

The first trick is obvious, but not everyone uses it. Use the same marking gauge and the same settings for laying out both the mortise and tenon (assuming the faces of both pieces are intended to be flush). Use a mortise gauge, or a pair of single gauges, with SHARP cutters. I use a Kinshiro twin bladed mortise gauge for tenons. Don’t cut any deeper than is necessary to make a clear line. The chisel cuts to the inside of the line. The saw to the outside. But remember, the “line” is the width of the gauge’s blade where it cut the wood, and so is very very thin. Thinner than your eye can see. With practice, you will develop an instinct for where to cut in relation to this line with chisel and saw to get a perfect fit without shaving tenon cheeks.

Another key is to use a good sharp marking knife to cut layout lines for shoulders. I cannot overstate the importance of this knife being rigid and sharper than any store-bought razorblade. It must also be flat on one side, not double beveled (spear point is OK, but not ideal since they tend to be less stable against the layout square). When you layout with this knife, the flat should face to your left with the tenon to the right. Your good saw will ride this line down into the wood, so it must be perfect. Remember, you cannot make a good saw do anything it doesn’t want to do, so give it a good line to follow. I don't mean deep as blue bayou, just straight, true and clean.

Another trick is one many already use, I am sure, but it bears repeating. Make a shoulder-sawing jig. This jig should be sized in proportion to the tenon shoulders you are cutting. I have a big one, a medium, and a small one. The medium-sized one is a stable board (I used hinoki, but most any stable, well-behaved wood will work) about 3/4” thick by 10” long by 3” wide. It has a slot in the center for 2 fingers to fit through. It has a lip along one edge that projects below the surface of the board about 3/8”. All six edges are straight and true and square. You use it like this: After cutting the layout lines for the shoulder, place the marking knife in the cut with the flat facing to the left, away from the tenon. Make a right angle between the knife’s flat and the face of the workpiece. Then place the jig on the top surface of the workpiece with the lip indexing along its length, and gently push it up against the flat of the marking knife. If your jig is straight and true and square, and you have positioned it properly, the jigs’ right end will form a plane oriented at a perfect 90 degrees to the length of the workpiece, and 90 degrees to the face, and centered perfectly over the center of the cut made by the marking knife. And all without even eyeballing the line. Very precise, very fast, almost foolproof.

Now, using your very sharp dozuki, place the blade gently against the face of jig, rest its teeth on the surface to be cut, and check to make sure it is perfectly aligned. If you are right handed, the jig will be held in position with your left hand, and the dozuki in your right. Now pull straight back to begin cutting. If your posture and body position are right, and your eyeball is located properly, and you truly pull straight back without a looping motion, the jig will guide the blade and the cut will be perfect. The jig also helps you detect any lateral swing in your saw stroke, a tendency you must overcome. With practice, this can be accomplished and repeated again and again very accurately and very quickly and without any Mickey Mouse paring. It is a skill, like riding a bicycle that, once learned by your body, is permanently retained. The next skill you must develop is to sense the depth of the saw's teeth in the cut so you don't cut too deeply. That can be difficult when you are cutting tenons shoulders at high speed.

The key to precision M&T joints (or any joint for that matter) is not having expensive saws or special planes or expensive chisels. The key is to train yourself to make the “cutting machine” that is comprised of the saw/chisel/hammer, your body, your eyeball, and your brain. And the key to making the “cutting machine” is to believe it can be done (faith), and to work towards that goal with every stroke of your saw and wack of your hammer. Have more faith in your arm and eyeball than in your paring chisel. You can do it.

Stan

[Mike Cogswell]

Yeah I wouldn't use this method on long tenons either. Fortunately, this is rarely and issue for me. I will say that when needed, instead of milling an extra piece you can just grap on of the the other pieces that will have a tenon cut on it (most the time there is more than one apron or stile). Of course, if your prepping by hand you'd still need to take a little extra time to make sure your pieces are all thickness the same, which really isn't necessary in a lot of handtool work. Sounds like a block rabbet plane or wide shoulder plane might be a better option for you. I have a router plane so thats what I use. It works well for what I do so I haven't bothered to pop for a wide rabbet plane. Who knows, if I had one perhaps I gravitate towards that instead. We may find out sooner than later, tax return season is coming up and a large shoulder plane is near the top of my wish list.

I don't have a wide rabbit plane either (which I imagine my wife will find strange if not completely unbelievable given the number of planes I do have). My only rabbit planes are wooden rebate planes. If I need to make a small adjustment to a tenon I generally just use a low-angle block plane or a wide chisel. Any cleaning of the corner between the shoulder and the cheek is done with either a shoulder plane or more likely a chisel.

I realized today that Waring's book suggests the router plane for trimming tenons, recommending attaching an offcut to the base. Not sure why that part of the book never quite sank in before.

[Jim Koepke]

Stanley,

Thanks for sharing your tried and proven methods.

For myself, every saw cut, every chisel movement from light paring to solid mortise whacking is considered to be "practice" with the intent of getting better.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,

Thanks for sharing your tried and proven methods.

For myself, every saw cut, every chisel movement from light paring to solid mortise whacking is considered to be "practice" with the intent of getting better.

jtk

I tip my hat to you and wish you the the greatest joy of the journey.

Stan

[Charlie Stanford]

Pardon me guys if i've been a bit vague. What I guess i've been playing around with is the thought (put more explicitly) that while we like to judge/pass comment on tools, methods and the like that it's possible (as Sean said) that we're talking past each other. As in applying differing criteria to reach conclusions. We're maybe each perceiving very different woodworking worlds.

What does 'good work' actually mean? Is it even work at all? Do we mean:

Working by the most cost and time efficient method of completing a woodworking task?
Working using those tools we happen to have or are familiar with?
Working to the highest possible standards of design, precision and/or standard of finish without regard for cost and time?
Working using the method that 'feels' best to us, that at some deep level feels like its what we are meant to do?
Working dogmatically with what we figure are methods that were used in years gone by?
Working without the use of modern machinery?
Working using only the very latest technologies?
Working to produce the blingiest possible result?
Working to maximise our personal skill set?
Working to appeal to the art house tendency?
Working to maximise our bragging rights?
Working to ??????

Guess i'm saying that there can be an awful lot of outcomes that we're seeking to achieve, and that most of us are running rather complicated and finely nuanced sets of balanced multiple beliefs - with the result that heaven knows what criteria we are applying in how we perceive a given topic.

Maybe it was all a lot easier back in the day when resources were very limited, and it was about making a living. You could hold all the high falluting views you liked, but in the end if you wanted yourself and your family to survive it seemed to be very much about following the money....

ian

Good lord save us.

[Jeff Bartley]

Stan,
Thanks for the explanation and the tips. I do practice some of those already (like using the same marking gauge) but I think with hand cutting joints I haven't fully taken the plunge to commit to the line when sawing. I need to do some small, simple projects where I'm not on the clock, not risking a time-taxing mistake. I must admit the original question came from the perspective of using machines (table saw in this case) to mass-cut joints and then fine-tuning for final fit. These final fitting cuts are very small, likely one or two swipes with a hand plane.
What I'd really love to do sometime is to build the same project twice, something simple, once with my machine and hand fit technique and once cutting all the joints by hand; with the goal of determining which was faster. I think I know which I'd enjoy more but when you're trying to build something to sell....as they say: time is money. Of course in my work many times I do things the way I want or think should be done even if the customer doesn't care or doesn't want to pay for it.....I care about the 'means' not just the end.....even if it costs my time!
I really appreciate reading about how others work too. Thanks again to all for taking the time for this discussion!

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I preferred LV's over the LN's initial offering due to the LN's open throat, but now that LN has a closed throat model, it's a pick-em.

I personally much prefer an old Stanley to the LV. I have both but always reach for the old one. I hate the angle of the handles on the LV. When paring cheeks you want to apply pressure straight down and the angled handles on the LV work against you in this case.
Salem

[ian maybury]

C'mon Charley. Tell us. What are you trying to achieve by woodworking???

Beliefs determine perceptions determine our take on reality....

ian

[Charlie Stanford]

C'mon Charley. Tell us. What are you trying to achieve by woodworking???

Beliefs determine perceptions determine our take on reality....

ian

Produce as much existential angst as I possibly can.

[ian maybury]

Now we're sucking diesel.... (slang phrase from ireland)

ian