People Taking Photos in Your Shop

[John Barton]

My Patent/IP attorney told me "Michael no one ever copied a bad idea"

LOL. That sounds just like what a patent attorney would say as he is waiting for you to write him a check. In fact people copy all sorts of ideas good and bad if they think that they can make money off of it. One way to look at it is that we are where we are as a species due to copying. It's ideas that drive what we call human progress.

As for people coming in the shop just to snoop and take pictures I find it highly distasteful but as Rodne pointed out it's nothing compared to what they will find on my website.

If I had a retail shop I would put up some little signs all around the products that say, "pictures are forbidden, cameras will be confiscated, police will be called, charges will be brought." So even if the shop owner couldn't actually press charges perhaps the threat will be enough for the competitors to stay away.

I would check the law though. I am pretty sure that a business can legally forbid the taking of pictures in their shop. Or not. Sucks to have to deal with it.

[Adrian Hill]

I think that the whole issue is actually a total waste of time. What difference does it make whether the person take images off your website, takes pictures in your shop using his Canon SLR or simply takes pictures using a $5 pen camera or keychain camera or any other tiny little camera that you wouldn't notice. Some people have photographic memories (I'd love to see somebody confiscate their minds) The technology to take discreet photographs is readily available for next to nothing. The guy can buy your products and reverse engineer them anyway.

Sell on reputation - and anyway, I do not believe that all of us that frequent this list don't spend lots of time scouring the net looking for ideas and techniques (that others perfected and make money from)

[John Barton]

I think that the whole issue is actually a total waste of time. What difference does it make whether the person take images off your website, takes pictures in your shop using his Canon SLR or simply takes pictures using a $5 pen camera or keychain camera or any other tiny little camera that you wouldn't notice. Some people have photographic memories (I'd love to see somebody confiscate their minds) The technology to take discreet photographs is readily available for next to nothing. The guy can buy your products and reverse engineer them anyway.

Sell on reputation - and anyway, I do not believe that all of us that frequent this list don't spend lots of time scouring the net looking for ideas and techniques (that others perfected and make money from)

It's all well and good to say "sell on reputation" but what happens when both shops are vying for the same customer?

So Shop A is super creative and has a LOT of awesome ideas and makes plenty of examples.

Shop B has zero creativity and depends on the customer telling them exactly what to do.

A new customer walks into shop A which has a storefront with plenty of items on display. Customer looks around and finds a few interesting and creative gifts that he would like to have made BUT he isn't quite ready to pull the trigger. So he leaves and down the street he sees another laser engraving business set up under a tent at the farmer's market. He walks in and looks around and doesn't see anything quite as nice as what he saw in the first shop.

As he is about to leave the seller says would you like to see some other samples? Sure says the customer and out comes the photo book which has a lot of pictures from the retail shop. So that guy gets the sale and the first shop gets nothing. In this instance there was no way to sell on reputation.

And that's assuming that there is a difference in reputation. What if the guy in the tent could do the work just as good as the guy in the shop?

No matter how you slice it it's just not fair for someone to take and use the work from another person and represent it as their own ideas or their own work.

Let's take it a step further. You make a KILLER web site, great images, fantastic copy that kills. You put a lot of time and effort into it and along comes some bozo who rips off all your pictures and copy and along with it your reputation since he takes all your testimonials as well. How do you feel about that?

As for the person with a photographic memory.....let's see them use that to sell a customer a plaque. I think an actual photo works better. :-)

There is a big difference between a board like this where people share what they do in full knowledge that anyone can take an idea and run with it and a private shop which is normally not set up to be a free fountain of knowledge for all competitors. When I am at shows I don't walk around taking pictures of my competitors' products. ( I hire people to do that - JUST KIDDING) - I will certainly go check them out but I won't take pix.

And when people come in my booth who are from the competition then it's NO PIX ALLOWED. And if someone did violate that then we would have a problem. Legitimate customers however can take as many pictures as they please.

[Adrian Hill]

I have a different take on this. We manufacture South African model trains: see www.scalecraft.co.za I developed a a superior product using various techniques. I know exactly what the opposition is doing, the techniques they use and the issues they face. They know the same about my operation (If they don't then it is their own stupidity not to find out). All the products are on the website and of course images of all the full size rolling stock is readily available. My opposition and I trade on a South African site similar to Ebay - we vie for the same customers all the time. None of us trade via the dealers because their mark-ups push the prices up to high. Sometimes we manufacture the same products and the customer chooses which product he buys based purely on price, quality and reputation. Given the innovation, quality, effort, product range, knowledge and customer base, the opposition can't touch me. I stay on top of what the opposition does, they don't get to lift a finger without me knowing about it. If they do something new or different I buy the product and take it apart to see what they did, how they did it and if its a good idea I use it. (All companies do - new cars have led lights, abs, traction control, they all look alike, why, copy copy copy) My opposition come into my workshop and I supply them with parts that I manufacture or import. Why, goodwill and insight into their operation. I know who is doing what because they order parts from me and it is amazing what one can find out over a beer and a bit of "bait" - give him advice, a part or a customer and he feels obliged to do something for you in return. in terms of techniques, its all very much the same, we use resin casting, injection moulding, brass etching, laser cutting, etc, there are no secrets. We each have our own way of doing things but it is much the same. Now, my customers prefer my products because they are simply the best on the market, yes, the opposition can copy them, and do, but if the customer is unwilling to pay my price then he can go away. My motto is this "A quality product for a quality customer" I will not trade with the rats and the mice - you know: the guy that complains that he can't afford the hobby and then wants to haggle - my view is that if he can't afford the hobby then he should take up another hobby.

To me the whole thing is like a second hand car dealership. There are 20 dealerships next to one another selling the same products, how does a dealer get a customer to buy when the guy goes from the one dealer to the next...a good dealer like Joe Girard does over and over and over again.

Business is largely about relationsips between people. Yes, products are important but a customer is far more forgiving if the relationship is good.

it is simply a given that products are copied sooner or later, the Chinese have it down to a fine art, the trick is to create a unique product, climb into the market and sell sell sell. As soon as the product becomes a commodity and everybody and his dog markets the product you should already be onto the next innovative product and you ride the wave all over again...Well at least that is what I believe and yes I know that it isn't easy if you are a little business struggling to make ends meet, but the fact of the matter is that if second hand car dealers can make it big, then so can we. (I am also the little guy fighting to stay alive...)

[John Barton]

I have a different take on this. We manufacture South African model trains: see www.scalecraft.co.za I developed a a superior product using various techniques. I know exactly what the opposition is doing, the techniques they use and the issues they face. They know the same about my operation (If they don't then it is their own stupidity not to find out). All the products are on the website and of course images of all the full size rolling stock is readily available. My opposition and I trade on a South African site similar to Ebay - we vie for the same customers all the time. None of us trade via the dealers because their mark-ups push the prices up to high. Sometimes we manufacture the same products and the customer chooses which product he buys based purely on price, quality and reputation. Given the innovation, quality, effort, product range, knowledge and customer base, the opposition can't touch me. I stay on top of what the opposition does, they don't get to lift a finger without me knowing about it. If they do something new or different I buy the product and take it apart to see what they did, how they did it and if its a good idea I use it. (All companies do - new cars have led lights, abs, traction control, they all look alike, why, copy copy copy) My opposition come into my workshop and I supply them with parts that I manufacture or import. Why, goodwill and insight into their operation. I know who is doing what because they order parts from me and it is amazing what one can find out over a beer and a bit of "bait" - give him advice, a part or a customer and he feels obliged to do something for you in return. in terms of techniques, its all very much the same, we use resin casting, injection moulding, brass etching, laser cutting, etc, there are no secrets. We each have our own way of doing things but it is much the same. Now, my customers prefer my products because they are simply the best on the market, yes, the opposition can copy them, and do, but if the customer is unwilling to pay my price then he can go away. My motto is this "A quality product for a quality customer" I will not trade with the rats and the mice - you know: the guy that complains that he can't afford the hobby and then wants to haggle - my view is that if he can't afford the hobby then he should take up another hobby.

To me the whole thing is like a second hand car dealership. There are 20 dealerships next to one another selling the same products, how does a dealer get a customer to buy when the guy goes from the one dealer to the next...a good dealer like Joe Girard does over and over and over again.

Business is largely about relationsips between people. Yes, products are important but a customer is far more forgiving if the relationship is good.

it is simply a given that products are copied sooner or later, the Chinese have it down to a fine art, the trick is to create a unique product, climb into the market and sell sell sell. As soon as the product becomes a commodity and everybody and his dog markets the product you should already be onto the next innovative product and you ride the wave all over again...Well at least that is what I believe and yes I know that it isn't easy if you are a little business struggling to make ends meet, but the fact of the matter is that if second hand car dealers can make it big, then so can we. (I am also the little guy fighting to stay alive...)

Adrian,

You and I are almost exactly alike in our approach to our businesses. I make pool cue cases and if you substitute cue cases for model trains in your paragraph then it would be exactly what I would say about myself. The example in question though concerns a retail shop competing against another retail shop for impulse business in personalized items.

It's a different situation. What is the point of creating a bunch of really cool products just to serve the competition more than yourself in a retail environment?

The point I was trying to make is that in a retail situation which depends a lot on impulse purchasing you don't have a lot of time or opportunity to establish a relationship. HOWEVER on reflection and thinking back to all the shows I have done one thing sticks out. You have to engage the customer and provide them with enough information to make what you think will be the smart decision.

I dealt with competitors offering knockoffs of my product for half the price selling against me three booths down. The way I handled it was to engage the customer and give them all the information and then I'd say something like don't get your money out. Take a walk and check out the other vendors. Use the knowledge I just gave you and if you feel my case is the better investment then come back. A lot of them came back, a lot of them insisted on not even shopping elsewhere. I also had a lot of signage in my booth - bullet points done as little signs for the customers I couldn't get to before they left the booth. I actually think that this is the more pro-active way to do it than the defensive way I suggested above with the no-cameras warning signs.

So I do agree that business is more about relationships than actual product. And I further think that the time to start a relationship is when the customer sets foot in your store.

And thanks for the heads-up on your business. I don't know jack about model trains but my friend is way into them and it's always a pleasure for me when I can toss a new link that he might not know about his direction.