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Thread: Incannel gouges

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Incannel gouges

    Why did patternmakers use incannel gouges? What about their work would require incannel instead of outcannel gouges?

    Any patternmakers out there know the answer to this?

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  2. Mike,
    I am glad you asked this. The recent pattern makers tools I acquired has a set of older Buck Brothers incannel gouges. Also he had a set of crank neck regular straight chisels. I have been wondering what in their jobs required them to have these offset type chisels.
    Looking forward to someone who Knows!
    Mike
    "Simplicity is at the heart of so much that is fine"
    James Krenov

  3. #3
    I would assume that patternmakers would use them like cabinetmakers did. They weren't just used by patternmakers, cabinetmakers used them as well. They are most useful for coping moldings. When performing coping tasks where moldings meet at an inside corner, incannel gouges are easier to use than outcannel gouges for a concave cope as you can make a vertical plunge cut and continue paring perfectly vertical or perpendicular to the surface being coped. This makes a nice tight coped joint. When using outcannel gouges for this task, one needs to angle the gouge so the bevel is perpendicular to the cut and not the shaft of the gouge. With such a small area on the bevel, it is difficult to tell when the bevel is perpendicular. Outcannel gouges would be used to cope the convex curves as again, this is where they could be used perpendicular to the surface. Outcannel gouges would also be used more for roughing in the contours of a concave molding profile prior to scraping or using hollows and rounds. For curved moldings like the gooseneck molding of a bonnet top highboy or secretary, outcannel gouges and scrapers would be used entirely to carve the concave portions of the molding. Incannel gouges can be used to rough in the convex portions of the molding.

    As St. Roy says, as a cabinetmaker, you really need both, incannel and outcannel gouges. This is consistent with the way I've observed the CW cabinetmakers coping moldings. In a conversation I had with David Salisbury, he said that the moldings are not coped with saws. It's much easier and a lot faster to do it with gouges. This is how they rough in cabriole legs as well. Paring cuts with incannel gouges can rough in the profile very quickly. A straight cut with a rip saw where it can be used and the rest is roughed in with gouges. They don't use bowsaws for cabrioles. They take too long and it is difficult to keep the cut straight across the leg blank. It's truly amazing to watch them work a leg this way. I still haven't tried it yet due to not currently owning firmer gouges. I do my cabrioles a bit differently.

  4. #4
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    In teaching carving, I occasionally get a student who has a number of incannel gouges - usually picked up at some sale - and sometimes that's why they're taking my course - because they have these tools and don't know how to use them. I have to explain the difference to them and tell them that they can (carefully) grind them to an outcannel gouge - but an incannel is not of much use for general carving (there are a few situations where they can be of use, but generally not for beginning carving)

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  5. #5
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    Nov 2004
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    Winterville NC
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    Old pattern maker

    Never finished my time but spent six years between High school patternmaking and jobing shop apprentice. Realize the patterns have a cope and drag sections since they are usually made up of upper and lower flasks in the foundry.. There are several reasons: one is a multitude of castings require what is called a fillet made of wood, wax or leather and must be dead straight with draft applied. That means there must be clearance between anything that must be pulled from the sand and out ground gouges would be hard to control that straight. Also every hole at the point of casting requires a core made from two half rounds of cooked sand and glued together and positioned by core prints producing a hole in the casting. Once in a while larger holes are designated as green sand and they are pared with a lot of draft to permit the sand to be withdrawn. Filets are used to preventing shrinking in the corners of a casting. I hope this make sense. Thus all these straight round core boxes and filets require straight cutting and are only supplemented by a sander.

  6. #6
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    I'm back

    The chisels were used to produce straight surfaces below another surface. Most of this is done today by everyone with a router. Harry

  7. #7
    I use an in-cannel gouge when making corner blocks for string instruments. It's very handy for roughing-out the concave shape with decent accuracy. You can lay the flat against the wood surface and it helps when trying to keep the cut level. Many violinmakers use them. Not fun to sharpen!

  8. #8
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    Feb 2003
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    Burlington Ontario
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    I asked one

    His specialty was making moulds for cast iron stoves. They make prefect looking beads that are straight and even depth. He had 3 complete set's. One thing that really struck me was how much care he had when sharpening his tools. Really low angles on those in-cannel gouges. between 15-20 degree's. All toll there was 500 or so chisels.

  9. #9
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    As St. Roy says, as a cabinetmaker, you really need both, incannel and outcannel gouges.
    I am going to have to show this to my wife.
    Already have a start on a set, now she will understand.

    Ha! Not likely.

    jim

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    I am going to have to show this [the quote from Roy Underhill, aka St. Roy, about needing both incannel and outcannel gouges] to my wife. Already have a start on a set, now she will understand.
    Jim,

    Your idea requires that she be a St. Roy believer. If she were, you'd need a shop at least half again larger, because you'd be sharing it with her, so you'd already know, and she might be showing the post to you.

    Good try, but I don't think it wins a prize.

    Bill

  11. #11
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    Nov 2004
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    Talking I understood the text of this post, but.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Goodwin View Post
    Never finished my time but spent six years between High school patternmaking and jobing shop apprentice. Realize the patterns have a cope and drag sections since they are usually made up of upper and lower flasks in the foundry.. There are several reasons: one is a multitude of castings require what is called a fillet made of wood, wax or leather and must be dead straight with draft applied. That means there must be clearance between anything that must be pulled from the sand and out ground gouges would be hard to control that straight. Also every hole at the point of casting requires a core made from two half rounds of cooked sand and glued together and positioned by core prints producing a hole in the casting. Once in a while larger holes are designated as green sand and they are pared with a lot of draft to permit the sand to be withdrawn. Filets are used to preventing shrinking in the corners of a casting. I hope this make sense. Thus all these straight round core boxes and filets require straight cutting and are only supplemented by a sander.
    What a totally different language found in the lexicon of the patternmaker...
    Totally (as the kids say) cool.
    Bill
    On the other hand, I still have five fingers.

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