Need so elect. help

[Daniel Gibson]

Hi to all, I am new to this and at my age I have to ask for some help, not something I do well but my father said we will have to do that sooner or later!
Here is my deal, I just returned from the IWF show last week where I bought 4 machines, all are 220 single phase, now my shop is a 40 X 60 pole barn/woodworking shop, and the 200 amp service panel is at the other end of the shop, the bandsaw is a 5hp, 220 volt and draws 30 Amps, the OM calls for a 35 Amp breaker, the jointer 3hp,220 motor draws 18 Amps,the OM calls for a 20 Amp breaker, the 20" planer 5hp,220 volt, single phase and that is all I know about it at this point (it comes in Tuesday) and a DC, 5hp,220 and that is all I know about it. Now in my shop the rafters are 10' high to clear my tractor that also lives in the shop, what I need to know is from the service up the wall over the rafters down to the 24" bandsaw is about 65 ft. and more to the other three machines, the OM says to use # 8 wire on the bandsaw but nothing about how far #8 can go before I state to lose Amps.

This goes with out saying but I am not a electrician, I did do the wireing of the lights and 110 wall plugs, which are ever 8' with a 4X4 box and 4 receptacles not 2 on the same breaker, I know its a little over kill but I have worked in shops that one can not pull the trigger on a 1/4 drill without tripping the breaker, even if I do have a one person shop.
All of that being said do I hard wire each machine or use long heavy #8 or # 6 ext-cords and I have to say I am not in love with that even if they are 10' off the floor. I live in SC, and the last time I called a elect-type person he charged me $750.00 to hang the meter base and the service panel and I furnished everything. Well that is another story...lol...and it was in 2005 so with the gas the way it is who knows.
Do I need to hire a electricain?? or can someone tell me how and what I need to do, this is not so much about money but it does play into the picture for me, I just want it done correctly so I don't damage my machines and othe tools.
I hope I have giving enough information about this WHAT DO I DO DEAL!

THANKS TO ALL OF THE HELP
DANIEL'S IN THE LIONS DEN

[Von Bickley]

Daniel,

Welcome to "The Creek".....

First thing is that 65 feet would not be too far to run #8 copper. You may want to consider putting your bandsaw and planer on the same circuit if they are not going to be ran at the same time. If you wired up your existing building, there is no reason why you can't take care of this wiring. You will be able to save yourself a lot of money.

Where in SC are you????????

[John Eaton]

Ideally, everything would be on a separate circuit home-run back to your panel - however that may not be practical and it can be expensive (copper aint cheap). Your not likely to run more than one piece of equipment off of the same circuit at the same time, with the exception of the DC. Your breakers should (theorically) be close in amperage to the equipment drawing power from it. I'd run a dedicated circuit to the DC and compressor (if you have one), also if you're running something very hot like a welder. Then gang up your equipment of similar amperage on the same circuits (those that come in under 20 amps can share the same run, etc). In my shop I have 3 20 amp 240's, 4 20 amp 120s and 2 15 amp circuits for lighting and I've never had an issue with breakers tripping - you're just talking about more amps and fatter wire. If the plan is to have more than one person running equipment at the same time, plan accordingly, either by splitting up the equipment to separate circuits or by using higher amperage/fatter wire.

-- John

[Dave Norris]

I'm not an electrician, but I wired my own shop with a lot of advice from this forum and from folks knowledgeable about electricity. I'm sure others will chime in, but based on what many others told me, #8 wire may be overkill. I ran #10 wire 40 feet to my 5hp dust collector and many told me that was even over doing it. If I understand correctly, 220 current will split the amps over both wires making a 17 amp or so current through each of the 220 wires. Again, as I was told, #10 wire is more than capable of handling that, and many folks said even #12 would handle it. I already had the #10 so I went with that, and things are great. I had a motor fail on start-up (manufacture defect, not my wiring), and I had an electrician come out and check my wiring saying all was well with the length of the run and #10. I think your current loss will be minimal. Might be different if you were going to run two or more on the circuit at the same time.

I think sometimes manufacturers put #8 in there as a way to wiggle around some warranty issues. I'll bet if you look at the wire from your motor, it's not #8.

Just my two cents, and again, I'm not an electrician in any way, shape, or form.

[Tom Veatch]

... If I understand correctly, 220 current will split the amps over both wires making a 17 amp or so current through each of the 220 wires. ...

Sorry, but that is not correct. The same current flows in both hot wires of a single phase 240v circuit. The current is not "split" between the wires. If a load is drawing 20 amps from the circuit, then 20 amps is flowing in both wires. What comes from the breaker in one wire returns to the breaker in the other wire.

Conceptually, you can think of it in the same terms as a 120 volt circuit with one hot and one neutral. The current that flows out the hot returns through the neutral. In a 240v circuit, the second hot wire takes the place of the neutral.

[Tom Veatch]

...the bandsaw is a 5hp, 220 volt and draws 30 Amps, the OM calls for a 35 Amp breaker, the jointer 3hp,220 motor draws 18 Amps,the OM calls for a 20 Amp breaker, the 20" planer 5hp,220 volt, single phase and that is all I know about it at this point (it comes in Tuesday) and a DC, 5hp,220 and that is all I know about it. ...

Typically, a modern 5HP motor will live quite happily with a 30 amp circuit. Check the dataplate on the motor. It should list the FLA (Full Load Amperage) of the motor which should be a little over 20 amps. A 20 amp circuit is too small, but 35amp/8ga wiring strikes me as being excess to requirements.

...the OM says to use # 8 wire on the bandsaw but nothing about how far #8 can go before I state to lose Amps.

Just a note on terminology, you don't lose "amps" due to the length of the wiring run. You lose voltage to the resistance of the wires. There will be slightly less voltage at the end of the wire run that is available at the breaker. The longer the run, the more resistance and the greater the voltage drop in the wiring. According to my calculations, with 10ga wire in a 240volt/30 amp circuit you should have less than the recommended maximum 2% voltage drop up to about 80 feet of cable run.

...Do I need to hire a electricain?? or can someone tell me how and what I need to do, this is not so much about money but it does play into the picture for me, I just want it done correctly so I don't damage my machines and othe tools...

I would recommend that you do. A lot depends on your local code authority. If they allow "home owner" installations, there's no legal reason you can't do it yourself. But, be wary of advice tendered at long distance. All intentions might be good, but it's far too easy to miss something important that would be obvious to someone looking at the job on-site.

[michael osadchuk]

Daniel

...here is a voltage drop calculator that I found on the internet that supports Tom's advice that 10 awg is certainly fine for 30amps up to around 80 feet, resulting in less than a 2% voltage drop for a 240 volt circuit)

www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

.... you have wired up lighting and 120 volt wall circuits to a distribution box you you are not doing anything different here with 240 volt circuits......just different blade configuration on the male and female plugs from 120 volt circuits and any big box store has the 240 plugs....

....as long as you remember the basic safety precautions you took when you did the 120 volt circuits (kill the power to the distribution box when making that connection) you should be fine

.... as others have said, logically you need a minimum of two 240 volt circuits 'cause you will be running the dust collector and the same time as the bandsaw, etc. but it is unlikely that you would be running three machines using 240 volt circuits at the same time....

good luck

michael

[Jim O'Dell]

Can you switch ends and put the shop down by the electrical panel and the tractor at the other end? Well, it was a good thought. Well, a thought anyway,
I won't offer any advice on how far you can run what wire. My longest run was about 36'. But if you've done the other wiring, 220 is just another step. Keep color to color and you will be fine, if you follow that first bit of advice....Turn the power off to the panel!!!!!
Now, we do require pictures. Being this is your first post, you will be forgiven. But pictures are mandatory!
Welcome to the Creek! Glad you dove right on end. Jim.

[Daniel Gibson]

Thanks Von I think I came to the right place, I hate to say this but for the past couple of years I some how forget what I know and the more I try to read or figure out what to do my mine goes blank. Because my back ground is in the heavy machine shops,R&D , and tool & die work, yes I wired this shop and the one I sold back in 2001, all of those machines were SCMI

[Daniel Gibson]

Sorry about that I hit the wrong key an off it went, but what I was saying is all of those machines were 3 phase 110/208 and was easy except the old building had 16,000 feet in it on 3 floors, I hired a Master Electrician that was retired and in bad health, so I had to install everything, panel,conduit, wire and all and he came in and watched me hook everything up about 6 or 7 thousand feet of wire, in 1992. I sold my shop and everything in it except the cat with no tail and this computer and I never thought I would ever want another shop for woodworking, this one was going to just be a mess around place and maybe build a new hotrod so I put a car lift in down by the service panel. That is why I have to run power to the other end of the shop. I am not sure it was a good idea but what is done is done to me so I have to move on. I did not plan to buy woodworking machine again until 2 days before IWF, my wife said this is my birthday present, guess I could do worse,

I am about 2 or 3 miles out of DUE WEST on 184 west..

Thanks for the help and I will do pictures ASAP!
Daniel

[Rollie Meyers]

One option is to put a subpanel at the other end, a 100 ampere feed will avoid a lot of homeruns back to the other end, and if a subpanel is the route chosen don't be chintzy buy a 40-42 space panel or at least a 30 space one, it will leave a lot of options avail. for the future.

[John Eaton]

I'm with Rollie - if you have a lot of equipment that needs to go down that end of the shop running a 100 amp service (a 2-2-2-4 service cable is about $3/foot at HD) might be cheaper. You can buy a SquareD panel kit (with I think 10 20amp single pole breakers) for about $40-50 and it'll give you a lot more flexibility. After you cost out what it's going to cost in wire running multiple runs to the other side it might be about the same cost wise, and it could save you time pulling all the wires across. I started to write something about the idea earlier but you hadn't indicated how many outlets you'd need on the other side.

-- John

[Daniel Gibson]

Thanks John I need to look at my service panel to see what is there to work with, its been three years or more and I can't remember what is there, I do know its a 200 amp sub-panel but like I said before when I wired the receptacles (4 to the box) and not two on the same breaker, and the boxs are every ten feet, at the time I didn't think I would ever have any woodworking tools again and my then NEW hobby was going to be building a hotrod pickup and the tools would be hand grinders and welders. I do have a 7 hp ?? aircompressor with in feet of the panel and my welder is also close to it. MY thinking now is to sale the welder, I won't weld in the shop because of fire to me it is just to much risk, anyway the 100 amp panel is a good idea if I have the room in the box and would cut some off the cost. Its not really about money so much its about my life time of tools and being safe from fire.. I forgot to say I am out in the county and really don't have any inspectors much so that is not a worry, I would how ever use a inspector if we had one because it will be done correctly,,sorry about my spelling, I do fly better than spell...
Thanks again for you help and input
Daniel

[Rollie Meyers]

One more thing, if you do go w/ a subpanel make sure it is the same manufacturer AND type as your main panel, for example Cutler-Hammer sells 2 lines the CH (last decent panel on the market) and the BR , Square D does the same w/ the QO and Homeline types, CH & BR are non interchangable nor is QO & Homeline compatable w/ each other, then you can get into a real minefield because there are makes who fit each other, but....... they need to be UL classified (Not listed)to be used in that panel in order to be used & if they are classified to fit there has to be paperwork to prove that they are......

Using the same panel/ breaker combo. makes for a much simpler life.

One example is Siemens bought the ITE line years ago, now renamed Siemens and later bought the Crouse-Hinds line then it reverted back to it's orig. name "Murray", Siemens dropped the Murray/Crouse-Hinds breaker line & had their ITE designed line rebadged as Murray, even though they are the same breaker you cannot use them in each others panels, the only thing is a Siemens breaker can be used in a older ITE panel... Nuff said.

[Daniel Gibson]

Hi Tom I went back and read what I said and, guess I was thinking resistance and typed AMPS, guess I should read this stuff before I POST IT, but AMPS was easier to spell..LOL. But I do thank everyone for the help, it really help me to know that someone is out there with a helping hand, .
I think the SUB-PANEL is the way to go now that I think I am on the correct track, I looked at the meter base and it has a what I would call a breaker panel below it with about 8 0r 10 spaces, the service is 200 AMPS and then inside a panel with about 30 or 40 breakers. Can I come out of the outside panel/meter base remember I am in the country, and install a 100 amp breaker and go to a sub panel on the other end of the shop?? and what size wire, we are talking about 65' . I know I would have to install conduit about 1"1/4 in size depending on the size of the wire.
Thanks for you help
Daniel