ADA Installation Regulations

[Larry Bratton]

Keith:
I have sent it to you via PM at least once. Check and see if you have it. If not, I can send again.
Thanks

[Joe Pelonio]

Still working on this one, I installed another couple of hundred today and thought I'd show one of the signs (I didn't make them). The laminate matches the table tops and other decor. I still say that the braille up top like this is not up to ADA.

BTW they are in the process of bringing in the furnishings, equipment and computers, and I've never seen so many boxes in one place with the label "Made in China". Ever heard of Lenovo computers? Apparently (I looked them up) the 4th biggest seller in U.S. and based in Beijing, with office also in N. Carolina.

[Scott Shepherd]

Lenovo is what used to be IBM if I recall correctly.

It's now the Lenovo "ThinkPad" instead of the IBM "ThinkPad".

[Joe Pelonio]

Ah, that makes sense. There were several hundred, if not thousands of those so I guess with tuition at $15,000+ each kid gets a laptop.

[Joe Pelonio]

28 CFR Part 36
Revised as of July 1, 1994

4.30.6 Mounting Location and Height.
Where permanent identification is provided
for rooms and spaces, signs shall be installed
on the wall adjacent to the latch side of the
door. Where there is no wall space to the latch
side of the door, including at double leaf
doors, signs shall be placed on the nearest
adjacent wall. Mounting height shall be 60 in
(1525 mm) above the finish floor to the
centerline of the sign. Mounting location for
such signage shall be so that a person may
approach within 3 in (76 mm) of signage
without encountering protruding objects or
standing within the swing of a door.

Keith,

As it turns out the distance to the edge is not a problem the height is.
I installed them all with the 60" from floor to centerline using a fabricated tool as you suggested.

The inspector has told the contractor that the signs need to be moved down 1/2", because the braille has to be between 48 and 60" from the floor, and most of them have the braille below the room number, just above the center of the sign so at 60.5". The the new proposed standard is 48-60, which they appear to be following though I had called the Justice Department to verify that I should not use the proposed regulations since they have yet to be approved.

My customer, another sign company for whom I did the installation, and who was with me when the school's facilities manager agreed to 60"/center
has decided that we will not move them until we have in writing that he will be paid for the additional time to move them.

I personally don't think we should move them, since we know it would make them out of compliance despite the inspector's wishes. I'm willing to bet that he misunderstood that the new regulations are proposed and not to
be used yet, since this is the first ADA required construction in the city since they were incorporated.

[Keith Outten]

Joe,

I'm not surprised that the Inspector is confused concerning the difference between the current COFR and the changes that have been proposed. It has been a very long time since the COFR has been revised and those not in the business don't realize that we are still stuck with the old regulation. The current regulation doesn't specify the height of the braille from the floor, just the center of the sign.

I'm with you, I would not adjust the height to the proposed regulation and violate the existing law unless the customer agreed in writing to take responsibility and pay for the change.
.

[Joe Pelonio]

Joe,

I'm with you, I would not adjust the height to the proposed regulation and violate the existing law unless the customer agreed in writing to take responsibility and pay for the change.
.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[Bob Cole]

How does that work with the inspect requiring one thing but you know the law states something different?

I haven't had to deal with inspectors so curious how that could play out.

[Keith Outten]

Bob,

Normally an Inspector will reverse a decision if you provide him/her with the paragraph of the specification that has legal precedence. In spite of what many think it is impossible for any Inspector to know the content of every code and every project specification so they need to be informed on occasion, especially when it is an area they don't deal with every day.

If he/she is a knucklehead then you may have a short battle on your hands. You can probably win the battle but you may very well lose the war if you don't use your best bedside manner when confronting a Project Inspector. the best course of action is to be professional and ask him/her to re-evaluate their decision based on the project documents.

Most large commercial projects have a means of requesting a decision from the project Architect or Engineer. Basically a form you fill out when you need additional information or directives. You can use this venue if you feel it is your best avenue, of course you can always take your case to the customer or the Inspectors Supervisor. Remember that often drawings and specifications will conflict, in these cases the specification normally has precedence.

.

[Joe Pelonio]

Our city only incorporated in 1999. Since then I have had several issues. I had an order for the very first "land use" sign. Their requirements were not possible to meet. With the required letter sizes and number of lines of text,
logos etc. there's no way it would fit on the required board size without lines of text overlapping! Since they have had a city staff there's been a lot of residential development, but this school and an elementary that also opened yesterday are the only buildings I can think of that would have required ADA, so it may be their first time inspecting for it. This is all further complicated by the number of hands in on it. The school's general contractor hired a design firm to do the sign specs, among other things. A sign company in Seattle made them. Then the installation went to a sign company in Bellevue who subbed it out to me.

[Joe Hayes]

Still working on this one, I installed another couple of hundred today and thought I'd show one of the signs (I didn't make them). The laminate matches the table tops and other decor. I still say that the braille up top like this is not up to ADA.

BTW they are in the process of bringing in the furnishings, equipment and computers, and I've never seen so many boxes in one place with the label "Made in China". Ever heard of Lenovo computers? Apparently (I looked them up) the 4th biggest seller in U.S. and based in Beijing, with office also in N. Carolina.

I still say that the braille up top like this is not up to ADA.

Joe, please do not take my comments in the wrong way. From everything I have read and done with ADA signage, it is my understanding that the braille is always below the last line of text. Am I incorrect? Have I missed something? (it is always possible for that to happen to me) Was this some sort of request by the customer to have it done this way? Please correct me if I am wrong - I really want to learn not trying to be smart (you not what).

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with you Joe Hayes. In this case, Joe didn't make the signs, he just installed them.

I see this stuff almost every day and I see 10 to 1 signs that I don't believe are true ADA compliant. I see the braille above, below, to the left or right of the text. I thought the regulations were fairly straight forward, but either I'm missing something on my reading of it, or there are a lot of people out there who just make what they want to make.

My vote is that people are just making what they want to make.

[Joe Hayes]

Thanks for your reply. I missed the fact that Joe did not make those. I, like you, run into several ADA signs that are not up to what I understand to be correct and ADA compliant.
All in all I find the regulations to straight forward. What I do run into quite often is architects seem to have no clue what is correct and tend to spec out sign by habit.

[Joe Pelonio]

Yes, as I understand the ADA specifications, the braille for multiple lines of
text has to go at the bottom, making many of those signs I installed out-of-compliance. As for the installation height, the city inspector was finally given my arguments by the building contractor's superintendent.

The inspector's response was "we do not follow the federal requirements."

OK!

[Bart Leetch]

Yes, as I understand the ADA specifications, the braille for multiple lines of
text has to go at the bottom, making many of those signs I installed out-of-compliance. As for the installation height, the city inspector was finally given my arguments by the building contractor's superintendent.

The inspector's response was "we do not follow the federal requirements."

OK!

That is fine as long as they have met or exceeded federal requirements.

But if they haven't the feds will put a knot in their tail & jerk it out for them.