Ready to Buy Laser Machine -- But How Much is a Fair Price to Pay??

[Cindy Collins]

Hello everyone. I have spent several hours reading through various threads and am so impressed at the wealth of knowledge that flows freely through this forum.

I am new to posting and will try to be as concise as possible. I am looking to buy a Universal PLS6.60, 18x32", 60W machine. I live in Arizona, where Universals are manufactured.

I am working with a very nice and very knowledgeable salesperson and have thus far received a "quote" on a machine matching my specifications.

It has been said in a previous thread ( http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...hlight=wattage) that negotiating a fair price is somewhat "between buying a car and buying furniture." At least when I buy my new car, I know what the dealer has paid for it and what the dealer's reasonable profit margin is. In trying to determine what is a fair price for this laser machine, however, I am at a complete loss....

I do not want to offend my salesperson in any way, and yet I have no idea what is a "reasonable" price. I was given a price sheet when I did my first demo and my "quote" for this machine has every price from this list, with a $8165 "customer discount." Quotes for other machines (that I decided against) all had similar "discounts," and all show quite vividly that there is a sizable margin for price adjustment.

My questions are:

(1) How does one know what that margin is?

(2) If there is no way to know a particular salesperson's "profit margin," is there a particular formula that is followed when making a counteroffer?

I am happy to pay a "fair" price for this machine, but I have no idea how to determine what that is.

Can anyone offer any suggestions on this? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Mike Null]

The manufacturer's margin is of no consequence to the buyer. If you think you know the car dealer's margin I think you're mistaken. His invoice cost is not the determinate for his margin.

Look at all the machines you think you'd like to have and compare their prices and features. If you think the ULS price isn't good enough make them an offer.

I would not be concerned about offending the salesman--people are always asking for better deals. You can bet he has thick skin.

[Cindy Collins]

Thank you, Mike.

I think "margin" was a poor choice of wording, but I am guessing you know what I was referring to.

This laser machine is going to cost me more than the Honda van that I negotiated for three years ago (thus my very simplified comparison of car purchase vs. laser purchase) --- it is a huge investment and I feel "uninformed" and at a loss in trying to determine if my salesperson's quote is a fair deal.

When buying a new vehicle, perhaps the "margin" is not known, but the dealer invoice is known, along with some of the current manufacturer's incentives. Taking this information into account, a buyer, therefore, at least has a guide to use when determining a fair offer price (using an inexact example, a person could offer $500 over invoice pricing if market conditions were dictating that level of "profit").

Perhaps there is no clear answer here, but I thought I would see if anyone had any suggestions before contacting the salesperson regarding her "quote."

Interestingly, I've looked at Epilog and Universal and in comparing the pricing, I have found that Epilog is approximately $5000 less than Universal's price, even after Universal's included $8165 "discount."

[Mike Null]

Cindy

If you do a careful comparison of features and find that Epilog is $5000less expensive then that gives you a basis for a decision or a counter offer.

I would not limit my choices to those two. There are others who merit consideration as well--Trotec, Xenetech, Laserpro to name a few.

[Scott Shepherd]

The PLS6.60 is a powerhouse of a machine. If I recall correctly, you can actually put 2 laser tubes in it. Not really comparing apples to apples.

Not saying anything bad about the EXT at all, I think it's one of Epilog's best made machines.

[Cindy Collins]

Scott,

If my information is correct, the PLS6.120D is actually the machine with the dual tube platform -- the PLS6.60 only has one tube.

I "adjusted" the price of the Epilog Helix to compensate for the difference in table size -- the PLS6.60 is 18x24 and the Helix is 18X32 -- in my attempt to keep it an "apples to apples" comparison.

[Rob Bosworth]

Why are so many people so concerned with rock bottom pricing? Granted, I sell laser systems. I do not do very well with the question. "how much will you give me off ?" I usually add 10% at that point. (Just kidding?)

Wouldn't a much better approach be: evaluate the equipment that will do what you need and what you project to need in the future. Evaluate the company that is making and supporting the equipment that fits your needs. Evaluate the salesperson and their technical support capabilities and how they will help or hinder your business in the long run. Make your decision based on what is the best fit for your company and for your future. IF you are making your decision on $ 1,000 difference in pricing between your first choice and your second choice, what are you really saving. Say you are only going to use that machine for 5 years, and most of us use a machine longer. But if you are going to figure on using it for 5 years, you are saving $ 200 per year.

Also, if you figure that you are going to buy a machine from someone who is actually going to help your business by supporting you and your equipment, wouldn't you rather have him be able to afford to be around to help you?

[Mike Mackenzie]

Scott,

If my information is correct, the PLS6.120D is actually the machine with the dual tube platform -- the PLS6.60 only has one tube.

I "adjusted" the price of the Epilog Helix to compensate for the difference in table size -- the PLS6.60 is 18x24 and the Helix is 18X32 -- in my attempt to keep it an "apples to apples" comparison.

Cindy,

It is the other way around PLS6.60 18x32 Helix is 18x24 Also you should inquire about the VLS systems in that size.

[Robert Ray]

Why are so many people so concerned with rock bottom pricing?

This is quite simple to answer... No matter what you purchase, someone in your life will ask you how much you paid/it cost.

If you paid $25K and found out later (usually within a couple weeks after laying down all your hard earned jack) that you could have gotten it for $22K or $21K, you would feel SO terrible, SO betrayed by your salesman, SO UTTERLY TAKEN!

It always goes like this: I got a new machine, It's great!

>Cool! How much did you pay? I am looking at a XXX too!

They only cost XXX! Want me to tell my guy?

>Naw! YYY quoted me XXX -Y, so I'll save ZZZ.

and all of a sudden, you feel like a fool!

-Robert Ray

[Kim Vellore]

So Rob, how much did you pay for your new machine......

Kim

[Rodne Gold]

The amount of buyers remorse or cognitive dissonance is proportional to the size of the purchase ,These things are big purchases , thus one feels more aggrieved if you do realise you have left money on the table or could have got the same for a lower price.

We as consumers are duty bound to minimise expenses and once one has done ones homework , then its a pretty logical next step to negotiate price. The problem to me seems the consumer discount offered , which in itself implies wiggle room. Why offer a consumer discount at all , it just says that original pricing is some thumb suck figure or is a gouging price that some sucker might pay. So if there is a perception of wiggle room , then it's natural to act on it.

At any rate ....I think pricing these days is even more important than ever as within a yr or 2 or 3 , the cheap "chinese" machines are going to get to the level of mainstream machines in terms of facilites , build quality and support at fractional prices , and then your high priced machine is no longer a barrier to entry and you will be competing againsty a plethora of cheap machines and will have to cut prices accordingly to survive the melee.
One of the problems I see as an outsider to the American laser market is that machines are sold to a lot of mom and pop enterprises on the sort of "make $1000 an hour in your spare time" basis. A lot of these folk have no ready market , little design or computer skills and even less engraving skills and thus they require more extensive support than lets say myself , who already had an engraving concern and worked with CnC engravers and complex cad packages. So perhaps if you fall into this "newbie" category , spending a bit more for handholding is well justified.
There of course is a downside to lowballing pricing and that is if you get the supplier to cut margins big time , if anything serious does go wrong or you are a problem customer with a problem machine , its unlikely you gonna get gold star support ad infinitum....no matter how good the supplier is , at some time when his profits are eaten up and it starts costing him , the attitude is going to change somewhat.
So Cindy , in essence a fair price would a similar price to what you would pay for any other machine of that class and power and accesory level and warrantee , regardless of the margin , cos if my customers had to dictate what they feel is a fair marging to me for my work done , I would probably be out of business. Factor in whether you will need the handholding etc and if its a little more for the machine made right on your doorstep and you feel you gonna get the best support, go for it.
I have 2 rules when dealing with salesppl
1) Get all promises made in writing
2) Apply the 1/2 x2 rule , Ie 1/2 the promised output and double the running costs , and if it still makes financial sense , take the leap.

[Paul Brinkmeyer]

Cindy,
if want to hear the other side of ULS and some of the problems with the PLS series, Email me off site. I bought for the same reason, live close get better service.

[Robert Ray]

So Rob, how much did you pay for your new machine......

Kim

haha! I got the bargain of the century, because I was the chum who lured in the fish (Chris) who paid full price! I even got a free 1.5" lens too!

Sorry Chris, Bidness is Bidness!

[Cindy Collins]

Mike, thanks for pointing out my error -- a definite typing mistake!! Since Epilog doesn't offer a table that is 18x32, I added $ to their offer price for their 18x24 Helix to try to get an apples to apples comparison to the 18x32 PLS6.60.

Wow, Rodne, very well put. When I look at all the quotes I have been given on the various different machines (ULS), each one is "fudged" a bit to reflect a "customer discount." There is a definite perception of "wiggle room," as displayed by the salesperson when I (at the demo) said something like, "Wow, your prices are quite a bit higher than Epilog." I immediately was told that something "could be worked out."

If I was the "sucker" that Rodne referred to, I would have just accepted the pricing listed on the sheets that I was originally handed at the demo and paid WAY TOO MUCH.

Rob, I am not looking for a "rock bottom price." I am just looking for a FAIR price, whatever that may be. I realize it may be impossible to determine and/or qualify/quantify a "fair" price, but I would much rather have a bottom-line number on each machine, with the same price offered to every customer. This is the price, period. No "discount," etc. Like Robert says, I don't want to walk out of the showroom happy and then feel like "fool" later.

[Glenn Corser]

Cindy,

A different angle. Unless you have a sure market you might want to buy a used machine. There are any number of posts on this forum from people who bought a machine thinking they would make a lot more money with it than they did. Go to Rob's site and browse around. You can get an almost new machine for a fraction of the cost of a new one. I personally can vouch that he will treat you more than fairly. If you do hit it big, you can always buy a new machine after the used one is paid off. If it becomes more difficult to make money than you thought, then you won't be kicking yourself over spending too much.