Sharpening: Are water stones really better?

[Jim Koepke]

I think all of the above are correct.

What works best for one person is not necessarily the best for another.

So if it works, don't fix it. If it isn't working, then investigate the alternatives.

I have oil and water stones and find the water stones are used more often.

Most of the time a blade that has been sharpened before will only need a touch up with the 4000 then the 8000 to get hair splitting sharp.

To contain the mess, my wife hauled me to a big box department store. We checked in kitchen, bath and automotive and found the cheapest rubber mat. The floor mats in automotive were on sale, so that sealed the deal. Also bought a plastic 5 quart container to keep the stones in. Don't leave something like this in a place where it might freeze.

The mat we bought has a ridge all around, so it contains the water. Some still occasionally gets on the bench.

My experience is water stones are more aggressive than oil stones. For production blade sharpening, this is a good thing.

For putting on a little water during use, a very small hole was drilled in the cap of a water bottle. A little squeeze and there is more water on the stone. Keep an old towel handy to wipe the blades. Before using the water bottle, one of my grandkids sippy cups did the trick. Others like to use an old spray bottle. What ever works.

The slow cutting of oil stones makes them my preference for finish sharpening of auger bits. Some things are better done slow and careful.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

My opinion is that the jump from 1000 to 8000 is too big a jump - you'll have to spend too much time on the 8000 taking out the scratches from the 1000. I would recommend a 1000 and a 5000.

Mike

I go from 800 to 4000 then 8000. Seems to work well. If another stone is bought though, a 1200 would fit in real nice.

jim

[Jim Powers]

Bess,
I used the oil stones for several years until I read a story on the "Scary Sharp" system. Now, I use only wet/dry sandpaper. For less than $20.00 at the automotive parts store. I started with a flat steel plate, 180, 220, 600, 800, & 1000 grit sheets. I added a 1500 grit for the last final touch. I also use a LV bevel set to guarantee the correct bevel. It works very well.

[Eddie Darby]

I guess it comes down to preference when it comes to sharpening systems. Water-stones allow for faster removal of metal, but require more frequent lapping. Oil-stones require less frequent flattening, but work slower.

If you get into the habit of frequently giving the water-stones a quick rub on say a diamond lap, all the time before use, then this drawback becomes an asset, in that you have a fresh clean aggressive abrasive to start your sharpening with, and a nice flat surface. You don't need to spend a lot of time, all at one time that is, flattening your water-stones if you use this approach.

The goal in getting something sharp is to have two flat planes intersecting at an infinite point. If whatever abrasive you are using isn't flat then you cannot achieve this goal.

If you want to have consistency in your sharpening, then not having the same starting point of a flat surfaced abrasive will hamper your goal. It would seem that frequent lapping of the abrasive is a good thing for consistency.

[Phillip Pattee]

Bess,
I found this article answered many of my questions about sharpening methods, maintenance, and technique. Perhaps you will find it helpful too. Like Jim, I went with scary sharp.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00003.asp

[Wilbur Pan]

If you get into the habit of frequently giving the water-stones a quick rub on say a diamond lap, all the time before use, then this drawback becomes an asset, in that you have a fresh clean aggressive abrasive to start your sharpening with, and a nice flat surface. You don't need to spend a lot of time, all at one time that is, flattening your water-stones if you use this approach.

I've found that an even better thing to do is to flatten my waterstones after I'm done using them. That way, I know they are ready to go next time I use them. If you flatten your waterstone set starting with the highest grit and working downward, you don't have to worry about grit contamination.

But to get back to the original question, I'd agree that if you already know how to use oilstones, and more importantly, you are happy with using them, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. First thing to do is to sharpen one of your tools (chisel, plane blade -- it doesn't matter which), and see if you can take a clean endgrain shaving off of pine or construction lumber. If you can do this, your tools are sharp enough.

If you aren't getting this type of shaving, I'd add a high quality hard black Arkansas stone, and a strop/honing compound setup to what you have.

By the way, I love waterstones, so if I suggest that you stick with oilstones, I must really mean it.

=====

If you really want to switch, here's the cheapest way to get good results with waterstones that I can come up with:

DMT coarse diamond stone, for flattening waterstones and dealing with nicks/initial flattening. - $55 (multiple places, often you can find a sale)

King 1000 grit stone - $23 (www.hidatool.com)

Natural aoto stone (like a 3000 grit stone) - $55 (www.hidatool.com)

Lee Valley natural finishing waterstone - $45 (close out special)

Or you could get the 1000/5000/8000 grit Naniwa stone set instead of the above 3 stones for $130. (www.toolsforworkingwood.com)

Total: $180-185

To echo Wiley's post above, the Lee Valley natural finishing stone closeout is a really great deal. I have an 8000 grit Shapton stone, and I like the edge that the natural stone gives me better.

[Richard DiCerb]

I have found myself sharpening my planer and joiner knives , router bits, shaper cutters and basically anything including a little diamone hone to keep my razor knives sharp. They are getting so cheap to buy now I can't see why they are not a consideration accept for maybe your rounded lathe gouges might be a little awkward . Thanks RJ
RJMETALWOODS.COM

[John Thompson]

I used Arkansas stones from the early 70's through the late 80's.. then water-stones from the late 80's until about 2004.. made the transition to scary sharp with sand-paper and doubt I will ever use anything else.

All get the job done.. but I personally find the scary sharp quicker.. less trouble-some and create less mess to clean up.

Sarge..

[Bess Kilmaren]

Jim and Phillip and John -- I've been curious about the Scary Sharp system for a while. It certainly seems simpler than everything else, and more customizable as well. But I did some searching on this forum and it seems people have trouble with the sandpaper wearing through so quickly that it becomes prohibitively expensive. Have any of you had this problem? Which sandpapers do you use, as I would assume that would contribute significantly to the wearing out/expense?

[Bess Kilmaren]

Oh, thanks. That's very informative if I do decide to make the switch to water stones.

[Wilbur Pan]

But I did some searching on this forum and it seems people have trouble with the sandpaper wearing through so quickly that it becomes prohibitively expensive. Have any of you had this problem?

Yes. Scary Sharp is how I first learned, and you can get excellent results with it. But the running cost of sandpaper was one of the reasons I got into waterstones instead.

I also found that the water I used with Scary Sharp made more of a mess than waterstones. After building one of these for waterstones, the mess is really minimal.

[Bob Smalser]

Those who say oil stones are slower apparently don't have coarse and medium carborundum and India stones in their inventory to true up rough edges before moving to the novaculite stones.



But anyway....if you're still tied down to jigs you're wasting time far beyond any difference in stone type. Take the time necessary to master freehand honing and you'll be able to sharpen anything, anywhere and at any time in a small fraction of the time you'll spend fussing with jigs and Tormeks.

Basic Sharpening
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12747

[John Thompson]

I purchase adhesive backed heavy-weight rolls (10 yards or 30' I believe) from Klingspors, Miss Bess. I keep a roll of 80.. 150.. 320.. 600.. 1200.. 2000 grits on hand. You could just get auto grade from a body shop supplier local and use spray adhesive. I use odorless mineral spirits as the lube from 320 up and I purchased a piece of tempered plate 12" x 32" I believe.

So.. initial start up is somewhat expensive.. but much less than a set of water-stones IMO. I will buy extra heavy paper backing on the 80 and 150 grit.. heavy-wieght on anything up. About $60-75 plus you need a plate to sharpen on.

Once you flatten the backs on all chisels and irons.. it really doesn't take much paper at that point. And like Bob Smalser mentioned.. I don't bother with a jig. After 36 years I suppose I have developed a feel. I cut 96 dove-tails by hand about a month ago for drawers with a 1/4" & 3/8" Marples blue beaters I purchased around 1975. Took about 10 minutes to re-coup them afterwards and very little paper. I do strop with green compoung and leather quite often in a similar scenario as that.

I was given a cheap #7 jointer a week ago and did use almost an entire roll of 80 grit on that 22" long sole to get the machine marks out and flatten the sole (around 4-5 hour as it was a challenge)... but once you do the 150-320-etc. is same procedure and takes very little.

And frankly I don't spend a great amount of time shooting for ultra perfection.. I sharpen them to a wire edge and take it off with stropping with green compound and a leather strop. I believe sharp is sharp as I was taught early and beyond that is wasting time you could be on a project. It works for me and has for a long time.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Steve Schoene]

Hi Bess,


Here is an excellent article on sharpening published on Joel's website:

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/

I would suggest you read the article, then either email or call Joel directly to discuss your own sharpening experience.

Wiley

I'll strongly second the recommendation to look at the link Wiley provided. I had the great good fortune to learn sharpening from Maurice Fraser, the author of that piece. It was the lesson for the first meeting of his Traditional Woodworking Class offered by the Craft Student League at the 52nd. Street YWCA in NYC. The second day in this class, which included absolute beginners, was devoted to cutting dovetails.

But whether you use waterstones or oil stones is a matter of preference, not a matter of "better" or "worse". You can achieve the absolutely same keenness of edge using either.

[George Beck]

Bess

Many years ago I attended a Japanese workshop. I went fully expecting Zen woodworking and sharpening performed by blind monks on natural water stones mined from sacred and ancient mountains and dedicated to the pursuit of the perfect edge. The stage was set and a very old man sat on the ground holding the work with his feet and wearing a kanji etched headband like a scene from the karate kid. Then suddenly he reached for a sharpening stone. He examined it and decided it needed flattening. To my astonishment he grabbed a concrete cinder block that was part of a make shift work bench, doused it with a cup of water and scrubbed the water stone across it. He smiled and made the comment "whatever works, works". I had an euphony. I have used just about every jig and sharpening contraption out there because a truly sharp edge is the goal. I have been able to achieve flatness and sharpness with sandpaper, oil stones, diamond stones and water stones. I am currently using Shapton stones for two basic reasons. 1)They cut quickly and thus cutting the time spent on each grit and 2) They are easy to keep flat which is critical. What works,works!