How was this joint made?

[paul dyar]

My neighbor has an old piece of furniture with this joint on the drawers. Has anyone ever seen this type joint, and know how it was made?
Thanks,Paul

Jerry's picture.jpg

[joe milana]

Someone's version of a sliding/locking drawer joint. Looks to me to be made in a series of steps. I could probably come up with a half dozen ways to reproduce it.

[Bob Vallaster]

You could get-r-done with a keyhole bit in a router and a table saw with blade that cuts a flat-bottom kerf. Using scrap the same thickness as your replacement stock, try-and-adjust the setup for each tool before cutting the 'good stuff.'


BobV

[Rob Fisher]

Bill Hylton, in "Illustrated Cabinetmaking" refers to this joint as a "complex lock joint". I would think a series of flat bottomed table saw cuts or maybe a router table a rabbeting and/or straight cutting bits. Of course there is always the plow plane and rabbeting plane, hand powered of course.

[pat warner]

Does look saw cut, especially the socket.
Drawer side also looks saw cut.
Notwithstanding, it's a pretty meager connection, pull strength next to nothing.
A lab-curiosity, nothing more. There are many easier stronger connections.
Worth an experiment? Absolutely, but I would not use the joint in a drawer.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Paul
We have a dresser, made by Gibbard furiture shop, Napanee, Canada established in 1837. That was bought in the late 1940's that has that joint. All 5 drawers are still tight. Joint only use on front sides of drawers. I have never seen it any were before now. We where given the dresser 38 years ago by the original owner, they bought it in up state New York IIRC. I always thought it was made on a shaper as the rear pin on the drawer back face has a slight taper to it, running down the full depth of drawer face. Joint is locked together with drawer bottom glued in. Tom

[DRAWERS - Gibbard "lock joint" construction with sycamore drawer sides - 3/16" plywood bottoms with hardwood centre guides. Drawers are hand fitted and are full length to provide extra storage. Jewellery or pin tray in top drawer of chest or door chest. 15 to 17 glue blocks on under side and back for added strength.] (from the web , company now out of business like all the other Canada and USA furniture manufacturers) Tom

[Frank Drew]

That particular example is a pretty sloppy piece of work, but unless I'm missing something (quite possible) even on a cleanly cut version of that joint the upper, horizontal board (the drawer front?) couldn't be completely cut with a table saw or with hand planes (how would either method cut the top rabbet in the horizontal piece without cutting off or otherwise fouling that small tongue at the bottom?) I think Rob and Bob are right that a rabbeting, keyhole or similar bit has to have been involved, a cutter that produces a t-shaped cut in order to get into that confined space. The other board could, or course, be cut on the table saw, but having to use multiple tools makes that a rather labor intensive joint, much more so that the more common version of a locking joint.

[Frank Drew]

Thomas,

I think that this joint is similar but not identical to the Gibbard lock joint .

http://www.gibbardfurniture.ca/bedro...0_pin_pop.html

[Rob Fisher]

... unless I'm missing something (quite possible) even on a cleanly cut version of that joint the upper, horizontal board (the drawer front?) couldn't be completely cut with a table saw or with hand planes (how would either method cut the top rabbet in the horizontal piece without cutting off or otherwise fouling that small tongue at the bottom?) I think Rob and Bob are right that a rabbeting, keyhole or similar bit has to have been involved, a cutter that produces a t-shaped cut in order to get into that confined space...

Good catch. It does indeed seem that a T shaped cutter would be required to cut the drawer front. Guess that means it was made with a shaper (or router).

[Larry Edgerton]

[QUOTE=Frank Drew;1822566]That particular example is a pretty sloppy piece of work,

I disagree. The beauty of this joint is that seasonal movements of the wood will not break the joint apart, but even loose it will do the job it was intended for. If the joint was tight the seasonal movement of the wood, or climate changes due to shipping would break off the short grain defeating the purpose.

It is old and still intact, so it is a surviver. I am not a big fan of dovetails for that application because of the failures due to movement, but although this joint at first glance may appears to be a bit loose, it is that looseness that will allow it to survive.

My favorite joint for drawer sides is the Pin and Cresent joint. It is a rare joint, but all of the old examples that I see are still in great condition. Of course it is only on more expensive pieces of furniture that are generally better cared for, but it sure is a pretty joint.

Larry

[Frank Drew]

[QUOTE=Larry Edgerton;1822875]

That particular example is a pretty sloppy piece of work,

I disagree. The beauty of this joint is that seasonal movements of the wood will not break the joint apart, but even loose it will do the job it was intended for. If the joint was tight the seasonal movement of the wood, or climate changes due to shipping would break off the short grain defeating the purpose.

It is old and still intact, so it is a surviver. I am not a big fan of dovetails for that application because of the failures due to movement, but although this joint at first glance may appears to be a bit loose, it is that looseness that will allow it to survive.

My favorite joint for drawer sides is the Pin and Cresent joint. It is a rare joint, but all of the old examples that I see are still in great condition. Of course it is only on more expensive pieces of furniture that are generally better cared for, but it sure is a pretty joint.

Let's agree to disagree, then, on what makes good workmanship, or good joinery. I'd merely suggest, though, that most customers, and any peer review group or instructional setting, would reject that example out of hand (note, among other things, the saw marks left on the drawer side edge.)

Historically, the pin and crescent joint was strictly a factory, machine-made joint that had a very brief period of use, although there are now router jigs to reproduce it; dovetails, whether hand- or machine-cut, have hundreds of years of demonstrated utility, so I'm curious why you cite "failures due to movement".

[Rich Engelhardt]

Here's an excellent picture of one in good shape:

http://www.harpgallery.com/library/dovetails.htm

Right side - third picture down.

[Rick Potter]

Good shot Rich,

Note that they call it a 'keyhole dovetail' drawer. That pretty much explains it.

Rick Potter

[Larry Fox]

Looks like the original creator used a beaver to me.

[Larry Edgerton]

[QUOTE=Frank Drew;1822987]

Let's agree to disagree, then, on what makes good workmanship, or good joinery. I'd merely suggest, though, that most customers, and any peer review group or instructional setting, would reject that example out of hand (note, among other things, the saw marks left on the drawer side edge.)

Historically, the pin and crescent joint was strictly a factory, machine-made joint that had a very brief period of use, although there are now router jigs to reproduce it; dovetails, whether hand- or machine-cut, have hundreds of years of demonstrated utility, so I'm curious why you cite "failures due to movement".

I cite my dislike for the common dovetail because of the many hours I have spent repairing ones that have failed. Simple as that.

On my own workbenches I did one with dovetails and one with box joints. All are overloaded of course, but the pinned box joint drawers have never failed and I have had to fix the dovetailed drawers a few times. Both were fit with the same tollerances. I stand by my statement that the dovetail is overrated in drawer construction.

On the joint posted, one would have to know the circumstances of how it came to be to decide if it is good or bad construction. To me it looks to be made with rudimentary tools, a handsaw and a chisel I suspect, and not by a factory or even a furniture maker.

The thing is, its a good joint. It can't come apart, it resists cupping of both the sides and the front, it has room to move without causing a failure, and as long as it is in the case captured by the runners the back can not come apart enough to let it seperate at the drawer front, even without glue. The drawer bottom holds it all in place on the horizontal, and as a utilitarian joint that does what it needs to do and can be built with two hand tools, I think it is awesome. So yes, I guess we can agree to disagree.

Larry