$7/gal gas predicted w/i 2 years.....

[Greg Funk]

Americans shouldn't have to cut back. We need to drill and build refineries. We have more oil in this country than most of the middle east.

You don't have to cut back. You just have to work harder to pay the higher prices for gas. Or drive a smaller car...

[Greg Funk]

True, but those european countries also don't have the same emissions standards that we do in the USA.

The better fuel economy they have is because Europeans drive smaller cars with smaller engines and fewer SUVs and trucks.

[Glenn Clabo]

Might want to check this out...
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/

[Rob Russell]

The better fuel economy they have is because Europeans drive smaller cars with smaller engines and fewer SUVs and trucks.

That is generally true, however the pollution levels from most of the european-spec engines are higher than the US models. One thing the pollution controls do is force the engine to run cleaner but at reduced horsepower levels. That's one reason the engines are smaller - they can get more horsepower out of a smaller engine because of the lack of emission controls.

I do agree that the average size of european cars is smaller than US cars.

[Greg Funk]

That is generally true, however the pollution levels from most of the European-spec engines are higher than the US models. One thing the pollution controls do is force the engine to run cleaner but at reduced horsepower levels. That's one reason the engines are smaller - they can get more horsepower out of a smaller engine because of the lack of emission controls.

I do agree that the average size of european cars is smaller than US cars.

That used to be true but I think if you look at HP ratings for most new vehicles they are the same on both sides of the pond. I believe Europe has had cleaner (less sulfur) diesel available for some time which has allowed them to focus on more diesel models but they are starting to come over here as well.

[Rob Russell]

Diesel is an interesting option, but the tax structure on diesel fuel is awful. I expect we'll see $5/gallon diesel this summer - it's already over $4.50/gallon here.

I really feel for the truckers - especially the independents - who are paying close to a $/mile for fuel.

Makes me happy to be riding a bicycle into work as many days as I can now.

[Mike Henderson]

Jeffrey,

I'm talking about extracting hydrogen gas from water, which we have plenty of. The energy required to make the process work comes from a small solar panel mounted on top of an outdoor unit the size of a heat pump.

This isn't futuristic, the Japanese have a home that has been hydrogen powered for about three years. It is totally self-sufficient including making its own fuel for an automobile.

I expect that with a new carborator existing internal combustion engines could be converted to burning hydrogen, a similar conversion to burning propane. The DOT would have to approve a new tank, this would be the largest obstacle to overcome but I expect it would be a very small tank....probably a gallon or two of liquid hydrogen.

What we need is a couple of people from MIT to design a hydrogen generator and put the plans on the Net. I would be rushing to the hardware store to purchase the necessary parts right away. I would start by converting my lawn mower to burn hydrogen then the cars and them my home appliances.

You will never see this technology if you expect the Government to make it possible. It has to come from private industry because it will devastate the oil industry, public utilities and cause a severe loss in tax revenue for the Government. Our planet will be the big winner not to mention our pocketbooks.



.

Greg Funk is correct - you'd do much better to just generate electricity to use in your home. Every time you make a conversion in the form of energy, you lose some of the energy.

And to make liquid hydrogen you would lose lots of energy. Hydrogen liquifies at about 20*K (or about -423*F). The energy required to convert hydrogen at room temperature to liquid hydrogen would be enormous. Then, you have to store the liquid hydrogen. You either have to continue to cool it (wasting energy) or you vent the gas that boils off (wasting energy). Liquid hydrogen takes a lot of space - From Wikipedia: "Four liters of liquid hydrogen are needed to match the same energy content of one liter of gasoline."

Additionally, hydrogen is quite dangerous. It burns without a visible flame so you could walk into a flame without seeing it. If it is stored pressurized, it must be under very high pressure to store any amount of it, and if it's liquified, any contact with the liquified hydrogen would cause serious injuries.

Finally, the amount of energy you would get would be determined by the size of your solar panels. Due to conservation of energy, the amount of hydrogen energy you could generate would depend upon how much electricity you could generate from your solar panels. A small solar panel does not generate much electricity - you'd have to cover your roof to get anywhere close to what's needed to run a residential home.

Mike

[Joe Pelonio]

The better fuel economy they have is because Europeans drive smaller cars with smaller engines and fewer SUVs and trucks.

They are not nearly as dependent as we are on the car. Homes are closer to the cities, and they have reliable public transportation. For me to take the bus to the city of Bellevue, 10 miles away would take 1.5 hours and I would have one chance a day to catch it. It would only cost $1.75 but I would have to walk a mile at each end, making the total time closer to 2 hours each way.

Higher gas prices there do not cause the hardship that it does here.

In the USA there are 765 motor vehicles per 1,000 people, ranking #1 in the world.

In the United Kingdom it's 426/1,000, Ireland 359, and so on.

[Greg Funk]

They are not nearly as dependent as we are on the car. Homes are closer to the cities, and they have reliable public transportation. For me to take the bus to the city of Bellevue, 10 miles away would take 1.5 hours and I would have one chance a day to catch it. It would only cost $1.75 but I would have to walk a mile at each end, making the total time closer to 2 hours each way.

Higher gas prices there do not cause the hardship that it does here.

In the USA there are 765 motor vehicles per 1,000 people, ranking #1 in the world.

In the United Kingdom it's 426/1,000, Ireland 359, and so on.

I agree with most of what you said above, however, they also drive much more fuel efficient vehicles. Much of NAs reliance on large vehicles was due to cheap gas. If gas prices remain high we will see smaller vehicles over here as well.

Significant changes in public transit usage will take much longer I suspect as they have a bigger impact on our standard of living. Personally, I'm not interested in living in an apartment downtown even though that would greatly reduce the amount of driving I do. I like my space.

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

You don't have to cut back. You just have to work harder to pay the higher prices for gas. Or drive a smaller car...

I bike to work as much as I possibly can. Been averaging about 6000 miles per year for a couple years now.

[Chris Padilla]

Every time you make a conversion in the form of energy, you lose some of the energy.

Mike

Mike, of course. Nothing is 100% efficient...no perpetual motion machines. The laws of thermodynamics apply across the board. I'm sure you are familiar with the "heat death" of the universe?

[Rob Russell]

I bike to work as much as I possibly can. Been averaging about 6000 miles per year for a couple years now.

Yeah, well you don't have to deal with snow too often

[Brian Elfert]

European pollution control agencies are focusing on greenhouse gas emissions these days. The UK is going to start basing registration taxes on the CO2 emissions of vehicles.

I've read that the European emissions standards are about as strict as ours, but they focus on different pollutants.

European countries starting taxing fuel at a high rate many years ago to discourage consumption mainly for environmental reasons and to pay for social programs like national healthcare.

[Joe Pelonio]

I agree with most of what you said above, however, they also drive much more fuel efficient vehicles. Much of NAs reliance on large vehicles was due to cheap gas. If gas prices remain high we will see smaller vehicles over here as well.

Significant changes in public transit usage will take much longer I suspect as they have a bigger impact on our standard of living. Personally, I'm not interested in living in an apartment downtown even though that would greatly reduce the amount of driving I do. I like my space.

Greg

Good points, they do sell large SUVs and Minivans there too, even the V8 Landcruiser and Hummer are available in the UK, but a much smaller percentage, most people buy small.

Yes, introducing a good transit system now is like trying to
bail out a sinking ocean liner with a thimble.

[Pete Simmons]

Solar


The Solar Constant is the amount of solar energy that has radiated from the Sun and is available in space at the Earth's distance from the Sun, before it gets into the Earth's atmosphere. That amount is 1,353 Watts/sq. meter or 429.7 Btu/sq. ft./hour, which is called the Solar Constant. This is the maximum available energy available from the sun on earth.

From here it only gets worse.

The atmosphere absorbs about 20% of that total and another almost 50% gets reflected back into space by clouds leaving us with about 130 BTU/sqft/hour or about 400 Watts/sq. meter and from here it gets worse again as all present methods of capture and storage of this energy are very low efficiency. Most are < 20% eff. and I am being very generous saying <20% most are much lower.

By The Way Gasoline contains 126,000 Btu/Gallon

So you can see that you would need many sq feet of solar collectors to capture the equalivant of 1 gallon of gas.

A big part of the problem is that at $4 or $10/gal it is a deal! Now we as a society need to learn how to live with that.