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Thread: Carbide and Lye (Oven Cleaner) - Problems?

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Moser View Post
    A friend has had good results using 'Simple Green' to remove pitch from saw blades. He says a brief soak and the stuff wipes right off and the product is supposedly more environmentaly friendly than those with lye. And not as tough on the skin.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Gregory View Post
    I too have used Simple Green with success. Effective and safe.
    I used Simple Green until I saw a response from the makers of Simple Green, posted on a forum (perhaps this one), that said to NOT soak saw blades in Simple Green.

    I also saw something that said the FAA did not allow Simple Green to be used on airplanes, because if it seeped into a crack or joint, it could corrode the structure (not a good thing to do to airplanes).

    I found it interesting that "Simple Green Extreme" had been approved by the FAA... apparently the "Extreme" version is less corrosive. After looking for a long time, I finally found the Extreme version available at Sams club in gallon jugs of concentrate. That is probably more than a lifetime supply, but it works good.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Walz View Post
    As near as I can tell this all started with some of my research. In 1997 I was granted U.S. Patent Number 5,624,626. I
    Tom,

    I assure you that my admonishments against using caustics predate your patent by a number of years and those from Freud in general by a number of decades. Being a manufacturer of carbide gives us a little knowledge about it. Here are some photos from our SEM showing the damage from 24 hours of soaking in a popular commercial cleaner (which will remain unnamed) that is less caustic than oven cleaner:

    Before:


    After:
    Last edited by Charles McCracken; 04-04-2008 at 5:22 PM.
    Charles M
    Freud America, Inc.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
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    641
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles McCracken View Post
    Tom,

    I assure you that my admonishments against using caustics predate your patent by a number of years and those from Freud in general by a number of decades. Being a manufacturer of carbide gives us a little knowledge about it. Here are some photos from our SEM showing the damage from 24 hours of soaking in a popular commercial cleaner (which will remain unnamed) that is less caustic than oven cleaner:
    Charles,

    Do you think there would be much of an effect if one used oven cleaner for 5 minutes? Basically spray it on and wipe it off followed by rinsing?

    Greg

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
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    Dear Mr. McCracken:

    I am afraid that I owe you an apology. I didn’t read your information closely enough. Our whole focus has been on carbide developments in the last few years. We ran our test last year with oven cleaner and a modern grade of carbide with an alloy binder instead of straight cobalt. Finally, our tests were designed to give a practical answer to the home user or commercial saw shop.

    As I understand your post we ran our tests several decades after yours on a more modern material using a different chemical and with a different objective. Hardly the same thing and I should have picked that up.

    In any case I apologize again for not paying more attention.

    Tom Walz

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Funk View Post
    Charles,

    Do you think there would be much of an effect if one used oven cleaner for 5 minutes? Basically spray it on and wipe it off followed by rinsing?

    Greg
    Greg,

    All exposure is bad, it's just a matter of severity. I do not recommend exposure to oven cleaner using any method. Soak in a vented container of kerosene and scrub clean with a stiff nylon bristle brush.
    Charles M
    Freud America, Inc.

  6. #21
    Dear Mr. Waltz,

    Evidently, I did not make myself clear enough for you. I did not mention a time frame for the test above, nor did I mention the composition of the carbide but I do appreciate the imaginative way you chose to fill those blanks for me. The test was performed in the last 18 months using a "modern" carbide. At least it was at that time but we are constantly developing new blends.
    Charles M
    Freud America, Inc.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    731
    Dear Mr. McCracken:

    Let me apologize again, then. I really am not trying to fight. It has been my experience that these sorts of discussion usually boil down to differences of viewpoint and comparing viewpoints leads to an increase in knowledge for all.

    I took the best data I could from the information you gave. If you could tell me where the paper is I would be happy to read it.

    My research is the only research that I have ever seen where a caustic substance affected carbide. All the literature, starting with the CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry and continuing through the latest research at Forintek, show that acids effect tungsten carbide, not basic solutions.

    Again I will apologize. In no way am I implying that you are incorrect. I just wish to reconcile the differences. I have had the pleasure of working with Freud R&D scientists and engineers over the years, and found them to be invariably intelligent, knowledgeable, unfailingly polite and almost always with a good sense of humor.

    I will certainly amend my literature to include your statement. I am sure you are correct. De Walt also issues a similar caution and I will include them as well.

    A great deal of what we see falls under the ‘haircut rule’. You can lose weight by getting your haircut but it is not a major factor. In my opinion, based on 27 years on the industrial side, and twenty years of my research and others research your reference is the only one I have ever seen to caustic solutions damaging carbide. Again I don’t mean to imply that you are wrong just that we are looking at things differently.

    I am going to be running some experiments and, if you wish, I will run a second set of samples for Freud to analyze. I would also be happy to include Freud tips in the test as well, if you wish.

    It would be really nice for woodworkers everywhere if there was some sort of definite answer to this question is.

    Sincerely,

    Tom Walz

  8. #23
    OK, based on the MSDS, use rubber gloves and safety glasses... I did get some and it did get the crud off very quickly. I had to scrub for a few seconds with a toothbrush.

    Also since it is a water based chemical you should plan to to rinse well and then use something like WD-40 afterwards.

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