restoring a hand plane

[Juan Lauchu]

I've read several posts regarding the restoration of hand planes. I was hoping I could ask a few questions and get some help in my gathering of information.

I'm new to hand tools and I'm looking at purchasing a smoothing plane either #4 or #4 1/2 and a jointer plane #7 (want to buy for those of you who might have one laying around the shop ).

1) When looking for a used hand plane do I want to purchase stanley bedrock planes over others?
2) is there a company that makes replacement totes and handles for these planes? I can find the irons and components but I didn't see that many websites for the handles. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong area.
3) Other than ebay, are there websites where I can look at hand planes?

Thanks for your help.

[Thomas Knighton]

There are several people who feel that Bedrock planes are over rated, including Patrick Leach who runs the Blood & Gore site. I've never had the chance to play with one, so I really wouldn't know. However, the price for Bedrocks at the places I can find them is usually enough reason for me to stick with Bailey planes.

As for totes and knobs, I know Highland Woodworking has replacements on their website, so you may want to talk to them. There are a couple of other places I've seen them, but I honestly can't remember where. I do know that sometimes they can show up on eBay of all places. Patience is the key though.

As for other sites, I don't have the links here, but I'm sure others here can help you out more than I on that count

Tom

[Lee Koepke]

you could always find other planes to part out for what you need ....

[Jim Koepke]

Here I was peacefully composing an answer and when I went to send, the Creek was diverted and some other site was showing up. Good thing a similar event a while back got me to save my typing before posting.

So what did I do? Out to the garage and experiment with a couple of planes. At the end of this post is what happened with a test between a $7.50 type 5-6 No. 4 Bailey plane and a $24 type 3 604c Bedrock plane.

I'm new to hand tools and I'm looking at purchasing a smoothing plane either #4 or #4 1/2 and a jointer plane #7 (want to buy for those of you who might have one laying around the shop ).

The only spare in my shop currently is a WWII era #4 that is not to my liking. I have not done much with it. My favorites are those made between the 1880s and 1920s. I find the low knob style more to my liking. I may have another spare No. 4 in the future, but there is a lot on my plate before that happens.

1) When looking for a used hand plane do I want to purchase stanley bedrock planes over others?

I have never used a Bedrock model. Just recently acquired one that will need a lot of work before it can be evaluated. The Bedrock's prices have been driven through the moon by collectors. The Bailey planes make such nice shavings when they are well tuned that the 604 may end up on that famous auction site. It looks like the main advantage may be they are easier to set the frog without all the fiddling around.

3) Other than ebay, are there websites where I can look at hand planes?

There are people right here that sell planes.
Look up Patrick's Blood & Gore on google. His site should be the first one. There is a lot of information there about planes. He also sends out a list every month or you can email him with your needs.
There is also Bob Kaune. Google his name and he also comes up on top.

Then to learn more about the age of planes, Google Rex Mill Planes to find Woodworking at Rex Mill. There is also a lot of information on restoring planes there.

I have many planes that did not require much to get them working. I am now enjoying the cleaning and restoration of some old planes. It all started with a couple of planes I bought off of uPay. They looked to be serious junkers for parts. Well, they were out of shape, but a bit of work and they were fine users. They were good enough that I cleaned them up and sold the ones I was getting parts for.

During the break in Creek flow, I used the same sharp, thick blade in a 604c and a No. 4 Stanley plane. What was discovered is the frog in the 604c is not square to the base. Both of these planes are project planes. The 604c has heavy rust and neither of them have a front knob. It may be due to the rough bottom on the Bedrock plane that it could not take as nice a shaving as the Bailey. The Bailey took wonderful whispers of wood by just putting in the blade and locking it down.

For a real test though, both planes will need a little fettling.

The adjustment of the Bedrock frog was simplicity for setting the throat to a paper thin opening. The mouth and the frog did not line up as well as I think they should. That is going to be a real heavy thinking bought before I figure out how to correct that. Maybe that is what the lateral adjustment is for. On the Baileys though, I have been able to do a little fettling and get the lateral lever to be pointing straight back or very close to center.

I also tried out the WWII No. 4 with the same blade. It did pretty good, but I still liked the oldie better. I have no idea what a fair price would be for it. Have been thinking of putting it up for auction someday.


Jim

Whether you think you can or that you can't, you are probably right.
--Henry Ford

[Jim Koepke]

1) When looking for a used hand plane do I want to purchase stanley bedrock planes over others?

Forgot this, some folks prefer Miller Falls, Sargent or Union planes over Stanley.

I have a Union same size as a Stanley No. 4. Before I learned to fettle, it was nicer than any of my Stanley No. 4 planes. Union plane blades are thicker than Stanley blades. Stanley bought Union Plane Company in 1920.
One word of warning, different makers and at different times the adjusters work in different directions. This is both the blade depth adjustment and the lateral adjuster.

On the Stanley planes prior to the 1920s, the adjuster knob is only 1 inch in diameter. After this they went to a larger knob. I like the larger knob, so I bought a bunch of them and most of my planes have them.
So, I have frankenplaned many of my planes. The collectors do not like this, but they are wonderful users.

Jim

Progress is impossible without change; and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.
– George Bernard Shaw

[Archie England]

From my perspective

1) When looking for a used hand plane do I want to purchase stanley bedrock planes over others?

Well, yes and no. I inherited a beautiful Bedrock 604 1/2 c. It cuts no better than my Sargent 410 (=4 1/2) or my Bailey 4 1/2. However, my Bedrock is worth a lot more than the other two. BOTTOMLINE: YOU DON'T NEED A BEDROCK AS A USER.


2) is there a company that makes replacement totes and handles for these planes?

Woodcraft (many locations), Highland (metro Atlanta), The Cutting Edge (So. Houston), plus other web stores carry beautiful and expensive Rosewood replacements--figure $30-40 plus s/h. Not sure which mfg makes them, but all are nice looking. I've started making my own. Why not? I've got the scraps and the tools and have to show something for all my "investments."

I can find the irons and components but I didn't see that many websites for the handles. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong area.

Keep looking. They're there.


3) Other than ebay, are there websites where I can look at hand planes?

Lie Nielson; Lee Valley; The Best Things; Garrett Wade; Tools for Working Wood; Highland; The Cutting Edge, et al.

Lastly, google "restoring a handplane" and you should discover a number of excellent sites for fettling any of these old planes.

One word of warning: drop a beautiful old Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls, etc., and it will most likely crack or break the metal. The newer LN or LV planes are made ductile, thus less likely to break. $50 for the former; $300 for the latter. BTW, the LN and LV tools are reputable for working right out of the box--rather than requiring hours of labor to flatten soles and sharpen the irons.

Enjoy

[Marcus Ward]

BTW, the LN and LV tools are reputable for working right out of the box--rather than requiring hours of labor to flatten soles and sharpen the irons.

Excellent post Archie, but I want to qualify this. MOST planes don't require hours of flattening. Saying it like this makes everyone think they do. I've flattened one plane out of about 20 stanley bench planes. Try it before you mess with it, get the blade sharp and the mouth set. If it makes a nice shaving, screw the flattening. Most of that is voodoo anyhow.

[Pedro Reyes]

Juan,

I don't think Bedrock justifies the extra cost imposed on the favorite auction site.

#4's are abundant and affordable enough that you could get 2 or 3 of them and frankestein a very decent tool. I would not worry about totes or such, some older totes have a nice feel to them not availabe in newer ones. I did however replace the blades, I like to keep the older ones "as found" in case i one day want to part with them (doubtful). Also newer blades do tend to reduce chatter and require less frequent sharpening.

I highly recommend this route, it is a fun learning experience, I have grown attached to the tools I've restored so much more than to those I bought and used "right out of the box". It is very pleasing to fine tune a tool and use it.

As far as #7s go, they are also common as mud, altho shipping is steep usually from our favorite site.

Patience is key with all tool hunting.

have fun.

/p

[Jim Koepke]

Excellent post Archie, but I want to qualify this. MOST planes don't require hours of flattening. Saying it like this makes everyone think they do.

Have to agree with this. Of my planes, one had a very rusted bottom and one had a lot of scratches. All the rest have not needed a lapping of the sole.

A recently acquired Bedrock has a very rough sole. It looks like someone painted over the rust. After a soak in citric acid it may get a sanding of the sole.

I have not decided yet if the soles on two other recent acquisitions will be abrasively cleaned or not. Mostly just some light oxidation and scratches.

Jim

What we need is more people who specialize in the impossible.
– Theodore Roosevelt

[Marcus Ward]

Pedro, have you ever gotten chatter out of a stock blade? I never have. I keep my lever caps tight. I'm wondering if this is another one of those myths that gets repeated because it sounds valid (and may not be) or if you've actually gotten chatter and what sort of situation caused it. I never have with the stock vintage blades.

[George Sanders]

I agree that you should read and study Patrick's blood and gore; then you will be able to make an informed decision on purchases in the future. I started out with a #5 and a #220 block plane. Be warned! They multiply on the slope!
I also suggest looking around in pawnshops that mainly sell power tools. People tend to overlook the hand tools. I picked up a Keen Kutter 5C for $4. It is built like a bedrock and is heavier.
Yard sales are better for bargains than flea markets. I found a clean Disston D8 saw for $2. Often people are just cleaning out the garage and don't know the value of what they're selling.

[Sam Yerardi]

Juan,

Everyone has given you great suggestions. What might work for you at first is to just get a plane whether it be a Stanley, or whatever, and just start playing with it. I have a theory that once you get familiar with a plane, you start to intuitively realize what you need and want in a plane. I'm going to go out on limb here and make a statement that will probably cause discussion. IMHO, flattening the bottom of a plane I think is one area at least for a beginner that is a chore where efforts would be better expended elsewhere. In all of the planes I have been fortunate to have picked up, they could use flattening but none of them have ever been so bad that I needed to spend hours on it. I fully realize that there are planes that bad or at least need flattening but it has been my experience that most of my focus has always been at the end of the iron - the edge, where it meet the cap, etc. That's the part that will make or break your enthusiasm in using a plane. You can have a plane that is incredibly flat but if the area I focus on is not the primary focus you just won't get to home plate. Even once you get the edge, IMHO, that's where the learning still continues.

[Pedro Reyes]

Pedro, have you ever gotten chatter out of a stock blade? I never have. I keep my lever caps tight. I'm wondering if this is another one of those myths that gets repeated because it sounds valid (and may not be) or if you've actually gotten chatter and what sort of situation caused it. I never have with the stock vintage blades.

There may be some element of that, I guess I've bought into that a bit. I took a class once and the instructor basically said that the stock blades were fine and that all this new blade thing was hype... then again he used mostly Clifton planes which have massive irons...

I have experienced chatter, but then again I don't generally use the old blades enough to conclude with any sort of valid data. One thing may influence the other, I do think newer blades hold the edge longer, which in turn could be what makes the stock blades have trouble earlier.

For all practical purposes, I don't work with very difficult (exotic) woods enough to make much of a difference. I still like the heaftier feel of the new blades and cap irons.

/p

[Marcus Ward]

I'm not saying blades like Hock aren't nice, I'm just trying to sift out what's real and what's stuff that gets repeated with no basis in reality. I mostly work with oak and haven't gotten any chatter but my experience is by no means all encompasing. A lot of this is a priori analysis and things like a thick blade being better seem obvious, but might not be.

[Frederick Rowe]

Juan - The primary difference is the Bedrock's ability to adjust the frog without removing the cap and blade. Additionally, the Bedrock frog runs in a machined groove and the frog and the body mate over a larger area. Theoretically, this would reduce distortion and/or misalignment of the frog to the body.

Having several Bedrocks and Bailey planes, I have found that with a properly tightened cap, the Bailey plane hold their settings well. It is a convenience in the Bedrock plane to make fine adjustments in the throat opening without removing the cap and blade of the Bailey.

As far as after market blades, I have gotten fine results with Ron Hock's replacement blades and chip breakers. The thicker Hock and LN blades are less prone to chatter, but are certainly not immune to it. Proper set up is the key. A plane with the thicker blade will reduce the onset of chatter, when conditions induce it. Eliminate the conditions which induce chatter, and stock blades are equal to after market.

While stock Stanley blades are good quality, I have helped several people restore and set up old Stanley planes and have, in a couple of instances found the original blades had been improperly sharpened - probably with a coarse high speed grinding wheel which removed the tempering of the blade. It simply wouldn't hold an edge. This is a self inflicted wound, not a problem with a properly sharpened blade original blade.

Like Marcus, I haven't had a chatter problem with my stock Stanley blades; if you encounter it, it means the frog is not properly mated with the body or blade, and/or the blade is not sharp. Likewise agree on lapping the plane body sole. The critical areas are the leading edge, the throat and heel. A slight dish in a non-critical area can be left alone. The critical areas must, however, be co-planer.

A word about sharpness. No amount of tuning or after market parts will overcome a dull blade. To fully realize the ease and beauty of working with hand tools; and this applies to hand saws, chisels, scrapers, and planes, you must first redefine your understanding of what sharp is. My 3HP Unisaw will tolerate a high degree of blade cutting inefficiency. I've seen watched many a woodworker chuck a dull router bit, and push it through a piece of wood as the motor strains and the wood smokes, and they still end up with a dado. For many beginners, myself included, the plate glass and abrasive sheet method is cheap and easy to start. I use water stones now, but many other methods will leave you with the same end result.

Woodworking is a highly personal art. Find what works for you, whether it is tool brand, technique, or method. If you find a bedrock in good shape at a good price, buy it. Same for a Bailey. Collectors have bid up the price for bedrock planes, hence their higher cost on Ebay and the like. Judge each plane on it's condition and price. They are a bit different, but properly set, both are tools suitable for the most skilled craftsman.