Planes instead of Jointer

[Peter Quadarella]

I am relatively new to woodworking and am planning on moving from exterior furniture and shop cabinetry to interior furniture soon. As such, I have been building out my shop a little. I will be purchasing a planer soon and would like to do without the jointer if possible and am investigating the idea of replacing the functions of a jointer with hand planes.

Other than a set of chisels, which I've only used a handful of times, I have no significant hand tool experience. Can someone help with a few questions?

1. What type of hand plane(s?) would be best to purchase as a replacement for the functions a power jointer normally do? That is, face and edge jointing I guess. I am assuming a Jointer plane, but having no experience I figured I'd ask.
2. Is there really a lot to learning how to use a plane to flatten a board, or would I be able to have reasonable success within my first couple tries? It seems like a simple enough concept.
3. Anyone have any opinions of the planes here? http://www.blumtool.com/pages/benchplanes.html They have piqued my interest.

Thanks for any advice you can share.

[Jason Beam]

While my neander experience is very limited, i can say for sure that there is one thing you will have to learn before you can expect to see much in regards to your 2nd question. When I got into planes and learning to use them, it completely and profoundly changed my impression of what it means to be sharp. I had a foggy idea to begin with, but I know folks who went in with the "I think I know what sharp is.." only to discover they're about 10% of what they really need.

You want good results with #2, you need two things: A well tuned plane and a truly sharp blade. Those two things will stand in the way of even the most dedicated newbie. Once you tackle sharp, tuning up a plane can pretty much be a laundry list of things to check and/or adjust. Then all that's left is the learnin' and the only way to get to learnin' is to get to planin'

[Peter Quadarella]

I do know a little bit about sharpening. I've read Mr. Lee's book on the topic and have sharpened my chisels a bit (also some initial work on carving gouges). I use waterstones and honing compound and have had good success so far.

I'm not sure what you mean about tuning though. Hopefully it's not much more than I would need to do with a power jointer regarding setup...?

[Steven Wilson]

1. What type of hand plane(s?) would be best to purchase as a replacement for the functions a power jointer normally do? That is, face and edge jointing I guess. I am assuming a Jointer plane, but having no experience I figured I'd ask.
2. Is there really a lot to learning how to use a plane to flatten a board, or would I be able to have reasonable success within my first couple tries? It seems like a simple enough concept.
3. Anyone have any opinions of the planes here?

1) A jointer plane (i.e. Bailey #7) is the general one to pull out for stock prep. If you just need to clean up an edge on a small board then you can scale back accordingly (i.e. use a #4). The Stanley #7 is most often used but a #8 (larger) or #6 (smaller) can be used with equal effect. To get a dead on square edge also look at a Stanley #386 jointer fence to add to a jointer plane. Old ones can be a bit pricey, IIRC LV makes a modern one thats a good price. I have been using powered jointers for awhile but still have a nice SW Stanley #7 setup with a #386 fence to do edge jointing when needed (quick & easy).

2) If you have a powered planer then you only need to face joint a board enough to make it through the powered planer. In this case you use various planes to knockoff the high spots so the board can go through the planer. The first planer pass should be a skip plane so the rollers aren't pressing down on the board too much. By working down the high spots with hand planes (scrub, #7, whatever) and maybe shimming the low spots you can easily prep the board so that the planer can make the other side flat. Then you flip the board over so that the newly made flat face acts as a reference when the other side is planed. This is pretty easy to figure out and doesn't take much finese. On the other hand if you want to face joint a board and then thickness plane by hand then you have to worry about technique and you'll end up using the #7 and #8 a lot to get the faces nice and flat.

3) no.

[Pedro Reyes]

Peter,

Welcome.

What Jason mentions about sharpness, is true and very important. There is as much information on how to sharpen and what sharp "really" is as there is friendly controversy around the subject. So if you are truly devoted to learning the Neander way, I'm sure you'll learn to keep your tools sharp.

That said, even with a sharp set of planes, "four-squaring" rough lumber is no cakewalk. Not long ago I dimensioned some small (I repeat small) panels for the sides of a bookcase, these were of the so called "soft" maple (can't stress those freaking quotations enough) and I had to work at it (I'm talking "make sure my sweat does not get the wood too wet")

My recommendation is that you first learn to use a handplane, fettle, tune, sharpen, hone, plane, etc. Make sure that you can take a full width shaving the whole length. Four squaring lumber assumes you can plane well. Flattening a board uses those skills as well as learning how to use winding sticks, checking with straight edges among other things. Learning the basics was one of best experiences I've had, it was fun and extremely rewarding. I think the hardest part was in the tuning of the plane. Those who still remember the sound of a smooth stroke with a nice full width shaving spilling to the floor for the first time, won't let me lie.


I would start with a #5 or #4. I'm not going to recommmend you buy a nice Lie Nielsen or Veritas, or that you buy an old Stanley, because there is a long thread on this and I will get yelled at either way.
All those work great, I have at least one of each and the difference is in the time it takes to get them to work nicely. The Lie Nielsen and the Veritas showed me what a great plane can do, the Stanleys taught me so much about how one is tuned and for that I have a special attachment to them. I have zero experience with the planes on your link, but they sure look nice, I would like to hear anyone's comment on them.

Hope this helps. Short answer is "learning to do it is not that difficult and plenty fun, actually dimensioning lumber the old way is hard work"

/p

[Michael Faurot]

Other than a set of chisels, which I've only used a handful of times, I have no significant hand tool experience. Can someone help with a few questions?
....
Thanks for any advice you can share.

This won't answer any of your specific questions, but something else to consider, before you head down this path, is that you're going to need a decent bench. Without a good bench to secure your work, even the best made plane that's sharp and tuned up will be effectively useless.

[Peter Quadarella]

I think I should be ok in the bench department soon.

I want to clarify my goal here. I'm not heading down the neander path just yet, I just want to do what Steven describes in his answer to #2. That is, flatten the board enough to finish it with the power planer. Thanks for the details on how this is done Steven.

That said, it sounds like I could start with something rougher like a scrub planer. Or should I just use the jointer plane anyway - it will take a little longer but be easier to find the high spots?

[Tom Saurer]

I know that this is the hand tool forum, but can I suggest making a sled to flatten your timber using your power planer? For the past couple years I've flattened boards using a #8, a jack, and a scrub plane. It works, but it takes me a fair amount of time to do each board. I would rather spend that time doing other things, so I'm going to be building a torsion box sled to go through my planer.

If this is something you want to do, I would suggest a larger plane (#7 or #8 size) and a smoother or jack. You'll also need something to sharpen them with, winding sticks to measure twist, and a workable area to plane the board.

I don't have any links handy, but I know that there are many tutorials on the Internet about doing this.

[Peter Quadarella]

Thanks Tom, I am thinking about using a sled but wanted to explore using a plane for fun and to give me a reason to try out hand tools to see how it was to use them. I will search around for some tutorial links, thanks for the suggestion.

[Mark Stutz]

Peter,
What you have in mind is certainly possible. Not to belabor the point, though some familiarity with hand planes is helpful, and sharpening is critical. I know I'm not the only one whose definition of sharp has changed several times.

I would suggest Rob Cosman's video, "Rough to Ready" to give an idea of what you're trying to acccomplish. Since you will be thicknessing with the tailed tools, all you need of the bearing surface to be flat so that the rollers don't distort the board. I do this all the time. A scrub is helpful if there is a lot of twist. Winding sticks are critical as is a straight edge...Iusually use the side/corner of my #8 for this. Start with shorter boards to get the feel for what you're doing, but it isn't that difficult, just takes some practice.

Mark

[Marcus Ward]

Even Krenov (I'm reading his journal again) said he wished he had a power jointer to save time squaring up stock. It is a simple enough concept but actually doing it is another matter entirely and it takes time although it is very satisfying to be able to do.

[Grant Lasson]

Peter,

I'm in the middle of a fairly large project during which I've needed to dimension 16 20" wide panels of varying lengths. I've learned quite a bit. I tried to do it all with a Jointer and a Jack. Very hard. Took a very long time. Muscles were sore. Relatively easy to get one flat side. Much harder to get the second side fully parallel to the first. I added the scrub plane and had a revelation.

You only need to get the boards flat enough to ride without tipping or deflecting during their trip through the planer. The scrub gets this job done quickly. The wood finish will be rough/ugly but let the planer clean it up for you. Not really a neander solution but I'm a lot closer to a "hybrid" anyway.

In my opinion, the scrub can be faster and more efficient that face planing on a jointer.

[Peter Quadarella]

Thanks Grant. Scrub planes are relatively inexpensive (compared to the other stuff), even for a LN or LV, so it might be worth giving that a try.

[Pedro Reyes]

OK, I see posts implying or even explicitly stating that a planer can flatten a board.

Correct me if I am wrong because I don't have either a jointer (tailed kind) or a planner.

But... as far as I know to joint boards with a planner you need some sort of made up jig... otherwise if you put in a bowed board you'll get a nicely bowed board of consistent thickness, but not a flat one.

So unless I am reading this wrong, to me saying that "kinda knocking the high spots" or "just get it thin enough to go through the planner" won't guarantee a flat board.

I'm I wrong? I am honestly curious. Now if what was said was that before putting it through the planner one needs to guarantee a plane on one face, then yes a planer can finish this off into 4square, at least that´s what I´ve read.

/p

[Marcus Ward]

A great plane for flattening planes is a stanley #31 (transitional) jointer plane with the iron ground with a camber, not as cambered as a scrub plan, but more than you would normally. I have a #40 and a #31 set up this way and I'll reach for the #31 every time. It' does an incredible job. They can be found dirt cheap all over, and possibly in Patrick Leach's firewood pile.

A power planer can flatten, sometimes. It won't take out bow or twist but I have successfully removed cup from 8/4 walnut with mine. You have to have a piece of lumber thick enough to not be flatened by the rollers when it goes through, or make one of those ridiculous sleds.

Or use a big scrub plane.