Copper pipe question

[C Scott McDonald]

Can type M be used in regular house plumbing? Does it have to be type L? Was over at Lowes and type M is a lot cheaper. I realize it is cheaper because of thinner wall.

I have Polybutalyne piping and it is leaking like crazy. I checked and there is no recourse form te various class action lawsuits. The previous home owner did file in time.

This is just a small townhouse 3 sinks, 2 toilets and one shower. Nothing major.

Thanks,
Scott

[Matt Meiser]

You'd probably have to check your local codes. On Ask This Old House this past week they talked about piping and he mentioned that in the Boston area M was only used for heating.

If I were you, I'd use PEX. It will be much easier to get into walls and other places, fewer fittings are required, and its EASY to work with. I've been using the crimp ring fittings and my local hardware store rents the tool for $5/day. One of my former co-workers was having problems with his plastic piping (he was calling it "quest" but from the way he was describing it, it sounded like the lawsuit stuff) and was redoing everything with PEX a little at a time. And its all they use on This Old House so I figure its got to be top of the line if they are doing it. Of course you are probably a little nervous about plastic piping so that might figure into your decision.

[Jim Becker]

Type M is, as you surmise much thinner wall pipe. Aside from the code question, if there is even a hint of acidity to your water, you'll be having fun with pin-holes at some point much sooner than you will with the Type L or K copper.

I do agree with Matt, however, PEX is the way to go for "re-piping". I would have had it in my addition in a New York minute, except for a nice little township ordinance that requires copper... oy! (And we do have acidic water)

[David G Baker]

I re-plumbed a house in California with type M copper pipe prior to learning about the type L copper pipe requirement. I watched the This Old House program about copper pipe and was surprised that type M was for heating only. I did use the type L pipe for all under ground work. Oh well on the California house, the ex-wife ended up with it so it will be her problem if it goes bad.
PEX is on my list for my next Michigan plumbing project.

[C Scott McDonald]

Thanks for the input.

What about CPVC as well? I know the codes allow it as they are building new homes out here with it. It is dirt cheap.

I saw the PEX and the guy at the Lowes had nothing but good things to say about it. But I will have to find some place that rents the crimping tool first. The crimping tool with all the heads was $200.00 bucks. That buys a lot of copper.

Thanks again.
Scott

[Brian Elfert]

One thing to think about PEX is will it have the same issues in 20 or 30 years as Polybutalyne?

Regardless, I have used PEX to plumb a bus conversion and wouldn't have any issues doing a house with it. Personally, I would use Shark Bite fittings instead of the crimp fittings. They cost a little more at Home Depot, but they don't depend on a crimp being done perfectly.

On a new house, there is often a manifold used for PEX. In most cases, there should be no fittings needed between the manifold and the fixture. this makes it pretty reasonable to use the Shark Bite fittings.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Those Shark Bite fittings saved me a couple of months ago when my main shut off valve leaked after cutting into the copper pipe downstream (on a Sunday too).

At first, I had my reservations because the repair was so easy to do and can be performed wet. But after some research, I found that Shark Bite fittings are becoming widely accepted by local building codes. The only set back is the cost. A typical Shark Bite coupling was around $15 and a sweat coupling is about 40 cents.

Around here, type "M" is used for hydronic heating and "L" for domestic water. Also, the price of copper keeps going up. I was appauled by the cost of a 10' length of 1" copper pipe...it was around $45. That may push folks to PEX.

-Jeff

[C Scott McDonald]

A long time ago on "Ask this Old House" they used pex to add a water line. Instead of using a crimper Rich first put a sleeve on the tube the used an expander tool which made the pex a little bigger in the end. Then put the fitting in the tube slid the sleeve to the fitting the used a special tool to pull the sleeve over the fitting and tube. Is that method still around or did it get abandoned for the crimp method?

Thanks again,

Scott

[Brian Elfert]

At first, I had my reservations because the repair was so easy to do and can be performed wet. But after some research, I found that Shark Bite fittings are becoming widely accepted by local building codes. The only set back is the cost. A typical Shark Bite coupling was around $15 and a sweat coupling is about 40 cents.

Unless you are buying the 1" Shark Bite fittings they are way less than $15 each. Most of the 1/2" fittings are between $4 and $5 at Home Depot except the tees that are close to $8. All of the Home Depots around here are clearing out the 1" Shark Bite fittings if anyone needs that size.

PEX fittings tend to cost more than copper fittings it seems, but the pipe is way less!

[Matt Meiser]

Is that method still around or did it get abandoned for the crimp method?

Yep, he still uses that method. He showed it on the one I watched last night. I'd never seen it before until then--no one around here carries the fittings that I've noticed. One thing, it looks like it would work much better in cramped areas than the big crimper. I almost had problems with that under my sink. I could have used the Shark Bite fittings there.

On the PEX crimps, I've found that they are pretty hard, but not impossible to mess up. What I've done twice is bump the fitting while getting everything in place so that it isn't fully inserted when I crimp. But if the crimper is on the ring and you close it all the way (the one I rent ratchets so you have to) then it is a good crimp. There's a Go/No Go gauge attached and I've never gotten anything but a Go.

Honestly if PEX only lasts 20 years that will as good as copper for those of us with acidic water. The PEX fittings are brass and therefore prone to damage by acids according to the guy at my local hardware, but they are so much heavier than copper they are sure to outlast the copper by a wide margin.

If it starts failing, I'm sure Richard will tell us on TV long before any of us see it as he's been using it for a while now.

[Peter Stahl]

Thanks for the input.

What about CPVC as well? I know the codes allow it as they are building new homes out here with it. It is dirt cheap.

I saw the PEX and the guy at the Lowes had nothing but good things to say about it. But I will have to find some place that rents the crimping tool first. The crimping tool with all the heads was $200.00 bucks. That buys a lot of copper.

Thanks again.
Scott

CPVC is very easy to do. I've used very little but it's like doing regular PVC, clean the connections and use plenty of Glue/Solvent. CPVC is for water and PVC is for drains. You can cut the CPVC easily with any saw too.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Unless you are buying the 1" Shark Bite fittings they are way less than $15 each. Most of the 1/2" fittings are between $4 and $5 at Home Depot except the tees that are close to $8. All of the Home Depots around here are clearing out the 1" Shark Bite fittings if anyone needs that size.

PEX fittings tend to cost more than copper fittings it seems, but the pipe is way less!

I could not find them offered on Home Depot's website or Lowes'. However, here's a pic of the 3/4" coupling that I found at an online source. Very pricey.

-Jeff

[Greg Peterson]

I replumbed my house last spring with Wirsbo (PEX). The fittings were a resin type material.

Installation procedure consisted of:

• Slip compression ring over end of tube (compression ring is PEX, but the ID is equal to the OD of the tube)
• Expand the opening of the tube and insert fitting
• Wait thirty seconds for the PEX to return, or remember, its original size
• Move on to the next fitting

The main difference between Wirsbo and what the borgs sell is the way the fittings are install. Wirsbo utilizes the memory properties of the material to secure the plastic/resin fittings. The borgs PEX uses an external metal compression band to secure the metal fittings.

Getting rid of the galvanized pipe was probably the single best upgrade I've done to the house. That's counting the upgrade to 200 amp service too.

[Chuck Saunders]

Thanks for the input.

The crimping tool with all the heads was $200.00 bucks. That buys a lot of copper.

Not anymore.

[David G Baker]

Last time I purchased 1/2 inch 10 foot length type M copper pipe it was $16 each. $200 will buy 12 of them if you include tax.