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Thread: 220 Outlets

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Russell View Post
    The first - pigtailing - means that the device is wired "off to the side" of the circuit.
    Shoot...I didn't pigtail my 120V/20A circuits and I agree that it is a good idea now that I think about it. Looks some minor rewiring is in my future in the garage....

    However, all my 240V/30A circuits are dedicated circuits--i.e. one outlet per circuit.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Beam View Post
    Hey Sam, not to hijack this thread, but how long ago was this and how much did those permits cost you? I'm going to be rewiring my shop this spring and am very curious about this
    Permits? What are those?

    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  3. #33
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    Dave,

    I would run a seperate 120V circuit for the outlet instead of just running a neutral. I do realize that if you shut off the 240V breaker you would still have power to the box, but I would prefer this to unbalancing my loads. I don't really know what the NEC says about it, but it would be similar to a dryer outlet which has a neutral connector to power the 120V equipment except that it would be a seperate plug.

    Mike

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Roxberg View Post
    Ok, great information and now two more stupid questions. This is my first time running conduit (metal EMT)
    Stupid is NOT asking questions. You're way ahead of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Roxberg View Post
    1. What is the correct way to cut the conduit? I am planning on using a hacksaw.

    2. What is the tool called that will remove the burr left by cutting either with a hacksaw, or the correct tool?

    Any other conduit warnings or requirements. I will be going in 3/4 conduit directly from the sub-panel to an outlet box.
    A hacksaw is fine - that's how I did my first conduit runs. Just make sure that your cut is nice and square.

    Emery paper is fine for removing the burrs. You don't need a special tool.

    Make sure that the conduit is sized appropriately for the conductors that you're pulling. Make sure that you use the appropriate connectors to terminate the conduit to the panelboards.

    What size circuit are you running and what are you using for conductors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Roxberg View Post
    For a 220 circuit I'll run a red,black, and white wire. Should I also run a green wire and just connect it to the box?
    Nope - run red, black and green. White denotes neutral and a straight 220v circuit doesn't have a neutral.

    Best,

    Rob
    Addy protocol: unlicensed homeowner electrician

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    Steve, I was wondering about a similar question. I know that if you are putting in dedicated 240 volt receptacles, then you would only need to run the red and the black (or two black) wires to carry the 240 volts, plus the green grounding wire if you choose not to use the metal conduit as your grounding connection.

    I would like to have 120 volt receptacles mounted adjacent to my 240 volt ones to provide greater flexibility (plug in my 240 volt lathe and a 120 volt light on the lathe for instance).

    I was considering on running a white neutral wire from the sub-panel in addition to the two black and green ones. This would allow me to wire up a 120 volt receptacle adjacent to the 240 volt one. Is it acceptable practice to use one of the black wires from a 240 volt run in conjunction with a neutral to get your 120 volts? (This presumes that I'll use an adequate gauge wire, likely 10, and will use 20 amp outlets for both the 240 and 120 volt receptacles with a 20 amp breaker.) Or should I run a separate line for the 120 volt and use a separate circuit. Also, can the 240 volt and 120 volt receptacles be contained within the same box or do they require separate boxes? Thanks.
    David,

    You can run a 120v and 240v circuit off of the same breaker. If you think you'd have any chance of running them at the same time with loads that would approach the circuit limits, I'd run (2) separate circuits.

    You can put a pair of (1) 120v and (1) 240v duplex receptacles in the same box.

    Rob
    Addy protocol: unlicensed Homeowner electrician

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Gustafson View Post
    Does the code require pigtailing? The reason I ask, is that I doubt any outlet in the house was done so, except for a few I have replaced and did it just to make it easier to insert the outlet back in the box.
    That's a loaded question. When was your house built? What code had been adopted in your area at the time the house was built? Is the local code based on the NEC? Are there local modifications to the NEC?

    Not pigtailing can make it easier, especially in the older, smaller boxes that got used. Let's not get into box fill requirements here.

    If you have the time and energy, pigtailed all your receptacles is a nice idea. While you're at it, write the circuit breaker number on the backside of the receptacle & switch plates.

    Rob
    Addy protocol: unlicensed homeowner electrician

  7. #37
    My home was built in the late 60's, and it was in the county here where there wasn't much in the way of inspections, permits and the like. The question is more pertaining to code today and trying to get the house up the latest and greatest when I have the chance. Pigtailing is something I will consider and surely will do in the shop.

    But, I hear you on the box fill limits. I will keep those in mind. Thanks.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Parker View Post
    ...I was considering on running a white neutral wire from the sub-panel in addition to the two black and green ones. This would allow me to wire up a 120 volt receptacle adjacent to the 240 volt one. Is it acceptable practice to use one of the black wires from a 240 volt run in conjunction with a neutral to get your 120 volts? (This presumes that I'll use an adequate gauge wire, likely 10, and will use 20 amp outlets for both the 240 and 120 volt receptacles with a 20 amp breaker.) Or should I run a separate line for the 120 volt and use a separate circuit. Also, can the 240 volt and 120 volt receptacles be contained within the same box or do they require separate boxes? Thanks.
    You can certainly use one of the black/red legs of the 240 circuit in conjunction with the white neutral for 120v. Three conductor (+ ground) NMC is available for just that application. 12ga wire is perfectly acceptable for a 20 amp circuit unless there are abnormally long wire runs involved. There's no need to suffer through installing 10ga wire unless you are seriously considering uprating the circuit to 30a at some future time.

    It isn't necessary to separate the different voltage receptacles in different boxes unless some quirk in your local jurisdiction's code requires it. You can get dual voltage duplex receptacles in which one of the outlets is 120 and the other is 240. Be difficult to split that one between two different boxes.
    Tom Veatch
    Wichita, KS
    USA

  9. #39
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    Hi Jason,

    I had my final inspection on my shop in July 07. I obtained permits for my house and shop. I almost tore my house down and rebuilt it, and built my new shop. I can't remember how much my permits were, but I will find out and let you know. I do remember when I obtained my permits, I had two options for my electrical permit. one was to pay so much for each outlet, panel etc. Two, was to pay a flat fee for the entire house and shop. I opted for the flat fee. I rewired my entire house as well as my shop. I am in Glendora, Calif.

    Sam

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Tom Veatch View Post
    There's no need to suffer through installing 10ga wire unless you are seriously considering uprating the circuit to 30a at some future time.
    Because he is not permitted to install 15 or 20 amp outlets on a 30 amp circuit, using #10 wire for a multiwire branch circuit would be pointless unless he plans to abandon the standard outlets if/and when he were to make this upgrade.

    Sorry. I know that you and I are in agreement on this, but the previous poster may not have known this when he suggested that he might use #10 wire.

  11. #41
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    Ahh, the "10 ga. future expansion on a 20 A circuit" issue! Always a crowd pleaser, sure to bring out discussion on CB protecting the circuit not the equipment, everyone agreeing that a 20A CB on a 20A circuit you just happened to uber-wire with 8 ga or 10 ga would be fine... then someone crosses the CB and the receptacles, someone shoots their eye out with a BB gun, and it all goes downhill

    Here's a link in my sig which is extremely useful as a basic garage shop/NEC initial reference. When in doubt, I personally pull up the SEARCH page here, and put "Rick Christopherson" in as the required author, then type a few key words such as "220 receptacle". I have never read a thread on shop power questions where I disagreed with Rick.

    I love these threads though, like watching "Most Crazy Car Chases"--you know a big crash is coming, but you just can't stop watching! Having asked all the same questions in this thread myself, I find I'm still interested in the answers despite having wire in conduit and permit in folder.
    Good luck!
    Thread on "How do I pickup/move XXX Saw?" http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=597898

    Compilation of "Which Band Saw to buy?" threads http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...028#post692028

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Christopherson View Post
    When in doubt, pigtailing is the best solution. You really do not want the power of the entire downstream circuit feeding through the connectors on a single outlet. This is true regardless whether it is 120 or 240 volt.
    I have a question on pigtailing a 120 volt circuit. If the 120 volt circuit must be GFCI protected, will a GFCI receptacle still protect all non-GFCI receptacles downstream or must the circuit have all GFCI receptacles or a GFCI breaker?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Greg Jones View Post
    I have a question on pigtailing a 120 volt circuit. If the 120 volt circuit must be GFCI protected, will a GFCI receptacle still protect all non-GFCI receptacles downstream or must the circuit have all GFCI receptacles or a GFCI breaker?
    Greg,

    That's a good question.

    You can use the first/GFCI receptacle to protect the entire circuit. To do so means using the marked Line and Load screws on the GFCI receptacle - which isn't pigtailing. You could then pigtail all of the other receptacles on the circuit.

    If you really wanted to avoid voltage drop everywhere on the circuit, you could pigtail every receptacle, but that would mean either using a GFCI breaker or all GFCI receptacles.

    IMO, for a home workshop, just running #12 and a 20 amp circuit with a 20 amp GFCI receptacle at the front of the circuit really should be fine.

    Rob
    Addy protocol: unlicensed homeowner electrician
    Last edited by Rob Russell; 01-26-2008 at 7:49 AM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Roxberg View Post
    For a 220 circuit I'll run a red,black, and white wire.
    Unless you are wiring something that needs 110 and 220V, so you only need a two conductor (+unshielded ground) cable... three conductor is a PIA to run, especially if you are talking about 10 gauge.

    You can use the normal black/white romax. NEC requirements are met by covering the white wire with electrical tape or something else to make it black at both ends (I use shrinkwrap tubing) so a future electrician understands it is a "hot" insteal of neutral wire.

    I would strongly recommend that you wire your 120V outlets to a separate breaker. I doubt your county inspector will be happy if you mix 120V and 220V recepticles in the same box.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Russell View Post
    IMO, for a home workshop, just running #12 and a 20 amp circuit with a 20 amp GFCI receptacle at the front of the circuit really should be fine.
    Thanks Rob! I'm still in the planning stage of wiring my shop and what you described is exactly what I had in mind, but I had not given any thought to pigtailing the 120 volt outlets.

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