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Thread: Where's the line in Copywriting?

  1. #1

    Where's the line in Copywriting?

    I'm real clear on corporate logos, etc. Wouldn't dream of making and selling anything with a Disney character on it, but I'm a bit confused on some aspects of the copywrite law.

    A few real examples- The Smithsonian Institute owns the Washington Zoo. Their policy is that you can take all the photos you want, but you cannot sell them without the permission of the SI. Well, I have no plans to sell my animal photos taken at that zoo. However, if I take a photo that I took myself, then come back, modify the image, and then make it into a piece of work (or art is you can call it that) by running it through PhotoGrav and them putting the modified image on a piece of cherry.

    Could I sell that in good standing? In my mind, if I take a photo and run it through a difussion filter in Photoshop (would be hard to do, since I don't own Photoshop), then that new image is a unique creation. Yes, I used the original to get to that point, but I'm not selling the original, I'm selling my own creation that was inspired by the original. All artists use a variety of things to get inspired. Can you not use an original to inspire you to create a variation of that which is unique?

    Seems to me like as long as I'm not selling a copy of the original, then I should be allowed to do so? I also understand that by simply taking the original photo and sending it to the laser doesn't make it unique or original.

    Anyone know how that works?
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  2. #2
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    It becomes really hard to prove ownership of photos that are engraved, if only because of the lack of color and clarity. I would certainly not worry about using and selling a photo that I took, unless, as in the case you mentioned, you have a shot showing something really identifiable like the entrance sign.

    Places like the National Zoo see a way to make money by selling you rights, and also, you are competing with their gift shop, hence that rule about selling any photos. Unless there is such a specific rule in place, you own the photos you take and can do as you wish with them. There may be such rules also in effect at concerts, theater events, museums and art galleries, so one has to be careful when using such pictures.

    That doesn't even begin to tell the story of how complicated this is, though. Consider the taking of photos of people in a public area, say the dock at the waterfront. Then later it turns out that you caught some guy with "another woman" and by publishing it you ruined his marriage, so he sues you.



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  3. #3
    I think I understand the people one fairly well. If you don't have a model release of the people in the photo, then you can't use it. However, that's only if they are identifiable (sp?). For instance, if someone has their head turned, then you don't need the permission. Or if they are so far away that you can't easily idenify them, then that's okay too.

    You also cannot take a photo of a building and use it without the written permission of the owner of the building. It's really crazy when you get into the details.
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  4. #4

    Letter of The Law

    It is our understanding that the rights to that image are owned by the Zoo. If you try to resell anything generated by that photo, then you need the Zoo's permission. I would guess that you would not have any problem getting permission to reproduce a photo of a kid and his grandma for their enjoyment. But if you are going to take that image and build a marketing campaign around it, the Zoo is going to want a taste.

  5. #5
    So if I take some canvas and paint to the zoo, set it up and sit there and paint that animal, then I cannot sell it? It's not a reproduction of an image, it's a new piece of art.

    If I paint a picture of you, then I own the rights to that painting, right?
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  6. #6
    There is no limit on how far a zoo will go.

    In my former hometown of Columbus, Ohio the zoo sells a product called zoo doo. You guessed it, it's manure from the zoo animals.
    Mike Null

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  7. #7
    Google this and search for "zoo":
    Photo Attorney: February 2007

    Cheers

  8. #8

    You Own The Rights

    I believe that you would own the rights to the picture you painted of me at the Zoo. But if someone who thought they owned the rights, and they had more money and ambulance chasers than I do, they could probably try it in a court of law.

  9. #9
    Well having brought a case to Federal Court in Boston for just this thing copyright, trademark and patent infringement, that is still pending, so I won't go into details.
    I can say that under any circumstance the owner of said property must first send a "cease and desist" letter to the offending party. Should they not at that time stop using the property in question. Then and only then can it be brought to court.
    So with this knowledge I would have no issue using Disney characters or picture from the National Zoo until that letter came from their attorneys. However, I also know that I don't want to pay my attorney to respond with a we have ceased and desisted letter so Disney is safe.
    So long story short is the line gets drawn in the sand with the "cease and desist letter."


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  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Road Photo Cameras

    I was still in San Diego in the Navy when the Red Light Photo Cameras first came out. A nice glossy 5 x 7 arrived at my Navy friend's home mail box with a Red Light Violation Photo Ticket. His wife finds the girl sitting next to him is his girlfriend and the date and time stamped on it with 4 views of the car. Not Good.

    Copyright issues are something that I really try to be aware of in my business. I tried for 2 months to get permission to do a Krispy Kream Sublimated sign for a local business. Got the run around from the Corp Office and finally someone told me that I was too small and they didn't want Mom and Pop Shops doing the Signage and that the Signs were available from the Corp Office. So I gave up with lessons learned.... The Owner still wanted me to do it... I won't tell anyone.....

    Didn't do it.

    AL

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Bosworth View Post
    It is our understanding that the rights to that image are owned by the Zoo. If you try to resell anything generated by that photo, then you need the Zoo's permission. I would guess that you would not have any problem getting permission to reproduce a photo of a kid and his grandma for their enjoyment. But if you are going to take that image and build a marketing campaign around it, the Zoo is going to want a taste.
    My thoughts on this issue would be that if you took a photo of an animal and there was NO reference of the zoo, such as signage or identifiable habitat, etc..., and you where just producing a product that had no mention of the zoo. But if you were at a place that had a recognized animal like Shamu and you made a product and made any reference to Shamu in any of your marketing materials be prepared to pay...

    I have sent out a "Cease and Desist" to a former customer and can't wait til the end of this month when I do a show that they will be at and see if they have any pirated copies of my patented product. I will have video and digital camera in hand, if needed to document. Once a C & D has been sent if they continue to infringe my understanding is it can be worth triple damages. But you know who always makes out on these situations... _t _ _ n _ y's.

    If someone brings you a picture and wants it lasered, have them sign a release of liability or Hold harmless agreement. Cover yourself. (I think there is a post somewhere on the Creek that covers this already.) If it is for their own personal use, probably won't be an issue unless it is an item that the Zoo (or any business) already offers and the prospect is intentionally trying to circumnavigate the them.

    Maybe you can approach them as a vendor but be prepared to cease if they say no and/or maybe be copied because their purchasing agent has connections overseas and really likes the idea but wants it for dirt cheap.

    Most recognized businesses put money into name recognition and anyone that wants to ride on that train, has to buy a ticket. Some may ride for free and they are usually trying to hide or be inconspicuous but if you are in it for the long run like most of here, I hope, do the right thing and ask.

    just my 2 cents, well OK maybe a nickle
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  12. #12
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    I can't resist chiming in here with my silly story...

    about a year ago, I got a call from a woman who had seen my work at a craft show. (Work specifically being engraved photos on wood). She asks if she can order a wooden box for her friend with a photo on it.
    Silly me, I asked for the details...
    FIRST, she wants me to engrave Jon Bon-Jovi on the box.

    SECOND, she does not even own the photo, she wants me to use a picture of a photo someone was selling on ebay.

    THIRD, she was not even planning on buying the ebay picture, she just wanted me to use the sellers thumbnail to do it from.

    How many violations do you think that is? ...let me counts the ways...

    I made the mistake of trying to explain why I wouldn't do it... she actually argued with me.
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 01-14-2008 at 9:44 AM.

  13. #13

    Glad you didnt do it....

    I think somewhere it is refrenced that if a wooden box was made with a photo of jon bon jovi the universe would implode.


    Glad you didnt do it !
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 01-14-2008 at 9:45 AM.
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  14. #14
    Join Date
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    Most all of this will always boil down to money. If you're making enough money from it, the copyright / trademark holder will want their share. As someone mentioned earlier, there are companies who don't want small shops doing their logo, for fear of violating their brand standards. I deal with branding issues all the time in my day job. I've heard the story of a day care being threatened by Disney for using their characters, (I checked the story out, it was true). But, I think it's rare that a company would sue anyone who wasn't making a large profit. If you have a 260,000 square foot warehouse full of Mickey Mouse Pen Boxes, they would go after you. But, if you're selling something unique to an individual, they will never know (or care).
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  15. #15
    Here's an example and tell me if this is a yes/no/maybe situation.

    I have a photograph of an eagle close up. It's basically a head shot of bald eagle. The background is leaves and sticks, so nothing I'd like to engrave. I'd like to make the background an American Flag. So, if I pull an image off the internet of a flag photo, and I crop it heavily to only have a couple of stars, and a few bits of the bars, then plot this big old eagle head on it and engrave it, did I violate the copywrite laws?

    I have used other art to create new art. Is that a violation?
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

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