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Thread: Squares Are Not Square, and Levels Are Not Level

  1. Squares Are Not Square, and Levels Are Not Level

    Here is one for you. Has anyone not checked their square, or level to see if it is square or level. I will never forget when someone asked me that question, without any explanation. Then I dug a little further, and learned about reversing a square, drawing a line, and also taking a bubble level, reverse it on the same surface, and see if the bubble is in the same spot. You will be shocked when you see the results. Here is a review I wrote back in Amazon in 2002, when I was shocked when I bought an expensive Freud square, and found out it was not square. Here is a copy and paste of the review. Check the pile before you buy.
    PS: I know a lot of creekers talk about the square method to check it, I was thinking that there may be some who haven't yet unfolded this surprise and would gain something from hearing about it.

    Freud DB012 12-Inch Try Square Availability: Currently unavailable
    5 of 5 people found the following review helpful:
    Squares are not square, and levels are not level, September 5, 2002
    I bought this because I am crazy about the quality of most of the Freud equipment. Part of the reason I wanted it, was to proudly hang it on the wall. Brass, Rosewood, and the Freud name emblazoned on the handle. When setting up my Radial Arm Saw, the instructions told me to check my square, to see if it is truly at 90 degrees. You lay it along a straight edge of your fence, then draw a pencil line across the table, (or on a piece of paper taped to the table) then flip it over, and draw the line again. If they are not exactly the same, it's not square. Well this thing is well off. Ok maybe by a couple of degrees, but isn't this tool designed to make sure, you are setting up your project, in true square. Well it isn't true. I will buying more Freud router bits in the future, as well as many items in their product line, but this square is not square.
    Fortunately I was able to make it square. By clamping the blade between two pieces of wood in the vise, and moderately tapping on the handle with a hammer, protected by a block of wood, I was able to change the pitch of the handle to a perfect 90 degrees. Did it loosen the handle? Not at all. I tested it by grabbing the handle, pulling on it really hard, to change the pitch, and it held without any change. So you can fix it. Don't send it back!
    I think in all fairness, that this Freud square should be put in a category with 90 percent of the other squares and levels out there. They are not square and level. If you go into you local store, and check the squares for square as mentioned above, you will find that they are not square. You can also check the bubble levels, by reversing them the same way, and flipping them over, end to end, and side to side. I went into the local building supply store, and out of a pile of 20 levels, I found only a few that were true.
    If you buy a square that is stamped out of one piece, the way a framers square is made, it is square. But, when buying a square that requires assembly, as in installing the handle, their is a good chance that it is out.
    Is this Freud square inferior to the rest of the squares out there? No, it isn't square, just like most of them. I do love the rosewood handle, and blued blade. It's made out of great materials, and well put together. Now all they have to do is get the square as good as the rest of the tool. I was delighted that I was able to turn it into a true tool.
    "Fine is the artist who loves his tools as well as his work."

  2. #2
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    Should have went with Starrett

    Ive bought numerous Starrett tools and not one of them has given me a reason to doubt their accuracy.

    I wont buy anything else when it comes to squares, straight edges or the like.

    v/r

    dan
    Building my own Legos!

  3. #3
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    Pflugerville, TX USA
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    I bought 2 Incra Guaranteed Squares from Amazon. I checked them with known good squares and they were both .005-.010 out over the total length.

    Then I went to my local Woodcraft and checked the Guaranteed squares they had there, same issue.

    Amazon has them back now, and I have all Starrett stuff now.
    Mike Marcade
    Senior Mechanical Engineer
    Server Development
    Dell Inc.

  4. #4
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    Bob.....You want to check your tape measures too!

    A few years ago my brother living in Wyoming offered to help an old high school buddy build one of these kit sheds.

    My brother and our Mom's husband built two walls. Bill built the other two. When they went to assemble it.....You guessed it. Bill's new tape measure was mismanufactured.....of by 3/4".......
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  5. #5
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    east coast of florida
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    I won't say where I bought my first, overpriced brass and wood handled squares because I don't want to start trouble. Much to my dismay when someone clued me in to the method Bob mentioned I found my set of squares were not square. It explained a lot. I needed a square and went to several places testing squares and found a couple of winners at lowes for a fraction of what I payed for the my box set.

  6. #6
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    extreme southeast Nebraska
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    a pair of starret # 111 stair gages and a good steel ruler is the best way to check a framing square for square using the 3-4-5 method. 15-20-25 is the most accurate tho.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  7. #7
    Bob, good post, that is one thing we all need to check now and then.

    I have 2 Starretts and they check out right on and I use those as my standard.
    Carpenter squares are a joke in most cases and are not square at all. I showed the guy and HD how bad the ones they had there and he didn't believe it.

    I did buy an M3 square from Price Cutter and it was way off. They do have instructions on how to adjust it and I did and now I am very happy with it.

    Side note, the M3 is a great square to have, I really like the way it handles and the way I can copy a line around a corner.

  8. #8
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    Harry,

    can you elaborate on the 15-20-25 and the 3-4-5 method. i assume this is the pythagorean theorem put to use.

    v/r

    dan
    Building my own Legos!

  9. #9
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    I actually have had a framing square that was out of square. I used a punch and gave it a good smack on the inside corner. Brought it bact to usability. I don't know if a good smack to the outside corner would do the same in the opposite direction though.
    What you listen to is your business....what you hear is ours.

  10. #10
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    Yes, it will.

    thats exactly how you do it. peen the inside or outside corners to adjust the square.

    v/r

    dan
    Building my own Legos!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Barr View Post
    Harry,

    can you elaborate on the 15-20-25 and the 3-4-5 method. i assume this is the pythagorean theorem put to use.

    v/r

    dan
    Dan....You nailed it.......you measure 3 down one side......4 down the other side......the hypotenuse should measure 5 if the two sides are perpendicular to each other.............15, 20, 25.....is the same only 5 times larger and therefore should be more accurate. A lot of carpenters use this method constantly!
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  12. #12
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    thanks ken,

    good to know. Very good to know.

    v/r

    dan
    Building my own Legos!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fitzgerald View Post
    Dan....You nailed it.......you measure 3 down one side......4 down the other side......the hypotenuse should measure 5 if the two sides are perpendicular to each other.............15, 20, 25.....is the same only 5 times larger and therefore should be more accurate. A lot of carpenters use this method constantly!

    But what is to say the device you are measuring with is accurate?

    So the framing square has numbers marked on it which could be a little off and the tape you use to measure across could be off.
    I am not trying to be a butt but I was just wondering, my boss always uses this method and has tied to get me to use it also.

    I always have used the flip it over and check it that way.

  14. #14
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    I think the both should be used in tandem.

    If you measure and do the 3-4-5 and it still comes out wrong according to the flip-over/straight line method, then you know your tape or rule is off as well.

    thats the thing about checking accuracy. sometimes you find out more than you want to know. then you have to deal with it.

    v/r

    dan
    Building my own Legos!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Barr View Post
    I think the both should be used in tandem.

    If you measure and do the 3-4-5 and it still comes out wrong according to the flip-over/straight line method, then you know your tape or rule is off as well.

    thats the thing about checking accuracy. sometimes you find out more than you want to know. then you have to deal with it.

    v/r

    dan

    Good point....... Good Point.

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