Another handcut DT question

[Doug Shepard]

It's been years since I've tried any handcut DT's. The results were usable but not pretty. So I'm getting ready to clamp one of the end pieces on this benchtop to trace the big pins with a knife and pencil. Somebody remind me - am I supposed to leave the line, split the line, or cut the line when I saw out the sockets??
bench30.jpg

[Brian Kent]

Leave the line, then pare up to the line as you check the fit.

[Randy Klein]

knife and pencil. Somebody remind me - am I supposed to leave the line, split the line, or cut the line when I saw out the sockets??

Remember that the line you scribe, be it knife or pencil, is on the part (pin or tail) that will be kept. So if you scribe with a double knife, you split the line (since it forms a v-cut scribe line). If you scribe with a single bevel knife, you leave the line (since it forms half a v-cut). If you use a pencil, actually I don't know since I've never used a pencil but I would guess leave it.

Of course, I could be completely wrong but this is the picture that's in my head...

[Wilbur Pan]

The best way is to do some practice runs on scrap using each method, then use the one that works best for you. A lot depends on your sawing, and I'm not talking about skill level -- I'm talking about the same sort of intangible that affects your golf game.

I usually go for splitting the line, but there are some days where I find that leaving the line just works better. And then I'll be able to go back to splitting the line again.

[harry strasil]

just as a matter of habit from making mistakes while demoing to the public and my mind getting side tracked from questions being asked, I still use a pencil to put an "x" on the part that is going to be removed. Keeps me cutting on the waste side of the line and chopping out the waste part. Working in the quiet and solitude of your own shop and demonstrating to the public are two very different worlds. Being able to concentrate completely on the task at hand while trying to answer questions or give a running commentary while you are actually working is something that is kinda hard at times. Especially when you are attempting to answer questions about something completely different than the task at hand.

The worst part is when someone comes up to you with a very elderly person, usually a man, sometimes in a wheelchair and asks if it alright if they can leave the person to watch you work and tells you or the elderly person asks if its ok to stay and watch and then you are told that the person was a Cabinet maker or whose occupation was WWing for 60 or 70 years or more, yes more. At one place I demoed the person who was watching was the person whose shop and tools were donated to the Living History Museum and whose shop I was set up in demoing with extroidinary pieces of their work on display in a seperate area. This gentleman was as I remember, 104 years old and he was a 3rd or 4th generation WWer. His mind was clear as a bell. As standard precedure, I offered him a chair to set in, and stated that if I was doing anything wrong to please set me straight. He just set there with a big smile on his face and occasionally asked to see a specific tool, usually one of my homemade ones. I learned some real neat procedures and tips that day and was flabbergasted when he asked he could draw out one of my tools. I usually get nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs when something like this happens.

The funniest thing that happened like this was when an elderly couple both sat and watched me for about 5 hours while the rest of the family was cruising the other sites at the event, and the lady commented when I was cutting dovetails, "Pa, he is a real Cut Up, just like you were!" I like to died laughing, and had to stop and set down I laughed so hard.

FWIW: I have also learned from experience when hand cutting dovetails to mark both pieces with either a number, a letter or the old way with just marks, /, //, ///, ////, as each corner is unique to themselves and do not often interchange. I also use the marking system when laying out boards for edge joining the same way across the joint, (technique learned from an old WWer who was my mentor). Also learned from him that the final edge prep is by clamping the boards with the marks together and doing one final shooting with a long jointer so they will match perfectly when glueing.

Like most WWers, my hand tool WWing knowledge is an accumulation of knowledge gained from reading old books I find, tips and procedures learned from other WWers and my own experience. And compared to the Old Time WWers I am just an APPRENTICE.

I got sidetracked again, as to the original question, I always mark the dovetails with a swan tail marking knife sharpened on only one side. The only thing a pencil is used for is to mark the boards as to their place in the assembly.

Thanks for listening to me ramble on.

[Jake Darvall]

The best way is to do some practice runs on scrap using each method, then use the one that works best for you. A lot depends on your sawing, and I'm not talking about skill level -- I'm talking about the same sort of intangible that affects your golf game.

.

Can relate to that.

If I'm cutting the tails into thin timber (like draws), I'll leave the line and drop the saw right on. No chiseling. Nice jap pull saw. Squint real hard

Cause the timbers thin I get good results that way. Nice and tight joints straight off the saw.

If the timbers soft, I leave the slightest of gaps between my saw kerf and the line. Will bite more with a nicer looking fit (consumes gaps more)

But if its thick timber, like what your doing there in that picture, its too hard for me to get a good fit straight from the saw reliably. I'd do what was previously mentioned....saw down say 1/2mm off ( whats that in imperial) leaving the line ,and chisel up.

[Doug Shepard]

Thanks everybody. Doing a couple of practice ones first is a great idea. One that I thought about weeks ago, but needed reminding of. I think it's about time I put a set of R/L single bevel marking knives on my Christmas list too.

[Wiley Horne]

Doug,

Good approach, especially the practice. On the marking knife, you can also get or make a spear point, or diamond point, with bevel on one side only, and use the one knife to do all the marking, by flipping it over as you mark left side, right side, etc.

Wiley

[Doug Shepard]

Wiley
I was looking about at knives this morning. I'm basing what I think I want on my marking yesterday and today in a tight space with the double bevel knife (I think it's actually a chip carving knife). So far I guess I've pretty much just used it straight down on a piece. I quickly regretted not having a flat blade with no handle and thought that a right/left pair was probably the way to go and something on the shorter side. So far these ones at GW look pretty good http://www.garrettwade.com/shopping/...oductID=106300

Japan WW also has some but doesn't list the lengths so ???
But I think I've spotted some shorter diamond points too. Other than the one-knife convenience is there any other advantage? Seems like the longer narrower point on the singles would come in handy for some things.

[Wiley Horne]

Doug,

Well, you're going about it the right way, looking at everything and getting ideas. Cause there's no such thing as 'one size fits all' in marking knives. It's what fits you.

For me, the only advantage of the diamond point is that I'm dealing with one knife, and not looking around or reaching for the other one.

One other thing, I like a little more obtuse point, rather than a longer pointier point. First, because I am looking for a real positive registration against the side wall of the tail I'm marking from. Second, because it's ergonomically simpler with the broader point to leave a good mark on the edge where you're terminating, so that you can pick up that mark and go down the other face. This is true for marking the pins board, or for marking tenons. If the knife has a longer narrower point, I'm almost having to bend my knees to get the correct angle on carrying the mark into the edge.

I have also had to find a pretty thin-bladed knife, as my pin entries keep getting smaller. Blue Spruce's diamond point is thin enough for me.

However, I don't want to sound knowitall or dogmatic, because marking knives are way personal. To the extent, lots of folks will make their own (cue Derek).

Wiley

[harry strasil]

if you want narrow and strong, carefully grind the teeth off of all 3 sides of a 3 cornered file, square the end up and then grind a taper similar to a chisel edge on it, cut off the tang, slide a piece of clear plastic or rubber hose on for a handle. Walla you have a nice cheap marking knife, just put one of the flat sides with the sharp tip down against what you want to mark and pull, to do the other side put the other flat side against it pull.

[Pam Niedermayer]

A hint for accurate marking with knives, direct from Jeff Gorman: put the bevel up against the straight edge and mark, so the R/L designation will be reversed.

Pam

[Doug Shepard]

I'll have to do some more thinking on the sharp pointy vs diamond type. Admittedly I'm basing my thinking on what would have come in handy for reaching in around these big pins with the end piece clamped across them where the point would have given a bit more reach. Laying an unhandled blade right along the pin would have been nice and I dont think not having a handle for more normal work would be a detriment.

But Pam, can you elaborate on the bevel up against the straight edge? In my case would that mean bevel against the pin sides? Not sure I grasp why that would make it more accurate. Seems like since the bevel has such a smaller surface to ride on that it would be harder to keep the line straight, but I'm probably missing something.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Here's Jeff's take on it, he explains it much better. I know that it works, and intuitively that I end up with a mark closer to the straight edge.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/markingo...velaspects.htm

You may not have room for this approach when marking from pins/tails.

Pam

PS Jeff has piles of good, reliable info starting at http://www.amgron.clara.net/

[Don Dorn]

Doug,

Good approach, especially the practice. On the marking knife, you can also get or make a spear point, or diamond point, with bevel on one side only, and use the one knife to do all the marking, by flipping it over as you mark left side, right side, etc.

Wiley

I'm a pencil pusher on DTs. I leave the line with hardwood and with softer wood, I leave just a touch between the cut an the line. Practice is definately the way. I think it was Frank Klausz who said "Start with four four foot pieces and start cutting dovetails. By the time you have it down, you'll have a nice little box for your shoe polish".

Take or leave it, but I married a little bit between Klausz and Marc Adams. I don't use any measuring ala Klausz, but I use the bandsaw to make the tail cuts ala Adams. I started with a bunch of poplar and made single tail into two pins, then three, and so on. Doing a couple every day, I had it down in about three weeks. The practice pays off because I very rarely have to make a repair nowdays.