Pocket Hole Joinery vs Dados

[Gary Keedwell]

Alan, I make my initial dado smaller then what I need. Instead of trying to size my stacked dado to fit the plywood, I measure the undersized dado, Move my fence using a plunge type indicator, and run my stock thru the dado blades again. I usually get it perfect the first time I move the fence. I usually move the fence about .010 bigger then the plywood for variances in the plywood thickness throught the length. I find it faster this way then trying to finesse the thickness of the stacked dado using shims. Yuckkkkkkk
Gary K.

[Von Bickley]

I use both techniques and each has its place. I have not had any failures with pocket screws. I do like a rabbit on the rear of a cabinet to allow the back panel to set in....this squares the cabinet and adds strength. If your overall cabinet design and construction is thought out , the components all work well to add strength and no individual parts are stressed ....it all works together

Amen.... I use both techniques also and also use a rabbit for the back of the cabinet.

[Greg Funk]

One question: How do you match your dado blade width to your plywood thickness? This is on of the major pains of dadoing to me. Alan

I used to use shims but then I got a Freud SD608 adjustable dado. One test cut, make an adjustment and you're good to go.

Greg

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Now Greg, You're making me jealous with that adjustable dado stack. I could go for one of those someday.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, I make my initial dado smaller then what I need. Instead of trying to size my stacked dado to fit the plywood, I measure the undersized dado, Move my fence using a plunge type indicator, and run my stock thru the dado blades again. I usually get it perfect the first time I move the fence. I usually move the fence about .010 bigger then the plywood for variances in the plywood thickness throught the length. I find it faster this way then trying to finesse the thickness of the stacked dado using shims. Yuckkkkkkk
Gary K.

Gary, That's a great method. I also like to make my dado then adjust the shelf ends to fit. Both work in the end. I'm going to try your idea next time. Alan

[Mike Cutler]

Hi Mike,

You make a lot of sense here. I like PHS but like you I feel they don't engage the second piece of wood with much screw length. I like #8 2.5" screws for assembling shop carcases using glue.

One question: How do you match your dado blade width to your plywood thickness? This is on of the major pains of dadoing to me. Alan

I use Gary Keedwell's method,and then finish with an LN Model 98/99 side rabbet plane as necessary. (This is on solid hardwood )

[glenn bradley]

How are these joints any stronger than butts joints with regular old drywall-type screws? I know that the pocket hole screws are easier to hide, but I don't get how they're any stronger. What am I missing?

JW

The screw adds a mechanical strength, enters at an angle and has a flat surface on the underside of the head that distributes the stress. I have also found dados to be plenty strong and not that much of an issue to use. Like another member mentioned here; I have used both methods on the same carcase.

[glenn bradley]

Not to hijack this thread but the above statement applies to me and probably some of the other people here as well. Why not use a more complicated joint that has a learning curve and apply what we've learned for other things. I think that's the way we teach ourselves. Most of what I do in my shop doesn't have an end user other than myself any way.

Any way "on with the show".

Agreeing with Jim here. I use shop cabinets and fixtures as an excuse to try new skills or practice old ones. It makes it fun. Of course my woodworking doesn't pay any bills and I have that luxury

[Paul Comi]

I don't think you have it right regarding the strength of pocket hole screws. If you made two identical boxes made with butt joints and attached one using only glue and the other using only pocket hole screws, which one do you think would fail first if you jumped on it? The pocket holes screws are going to be stronger than the glue in a joint using a combination of the two but a combination of the two is even better. Glue in a shelf using only a butt joint and do one with pocket hole screws. Which one will you want to stand on? End grain doesn't glue very well whether you're using solid or plywood. Obviously, the pocket hole screws provide the majority of the strength in a glue/screw combination joint.

I've never used Miller dowels but they're just made of wood, right? How are they stronger than steel screws? Since I've never used them I don't know what their strength is for shear strength or racking resistance. But I doubt that it's more than a steel pocket screw. Could be wrong though I suppose.

Bruce

Technically, with plywood which is what I was assuming we were talking about, half of the plies are long grain unlike a solid piece of wood which is long grain on one side and end grain on the other. I like pocket screws where applicable, but aren't the end of those screws penetrating about 3/8" into the panel? Miller dowels or confirmat screw are stronger because its not the screw that breaks, but the tip of the screw pulls out of the panel its screwed into. The miller dowel completely intersects the panel and is glued into it and the rest of the pin is sunk into the adjacent piece being joined. And a confirmat is a coarse thread beefy screw that completely intersects the panel and board in the same way providing a similar effect but without the glue inside the joinery with the exception of the edge to panel seam. This is just me, but the moment I start using screws and nails to do joinery, I'm back into doing carpentry. Since I personally am striving to become a designer and woodworker of furniture, the standard is to form joints using wood and glue.

When I'm not being lazy, the first choice is always to form a joint which inherently has more strength to resist the various forces and a butt joint is the weakest joint of all in traditional woodworking. But, considering how limited time is right now for doing woodworking, I'd probably use a butt joint reinforced by domino tenons first or use dado's second. Also, if the case has a glued on face frame and a well affixed back, thats going to add to the overall integrity of the carcase significantly. With a router table cabinet, there tends to be dividers that add to the vertical support that don't exist in something like a bookcase in which case I'd never rely on pocket screws to hold the top and bottom fixed shelves. We're not building a monument here-this is shop furniture so the main thing is to get it built and start making stuff with it.

[MATT HASSMER]

I'm new here & I'm gonna be building a closet organizer for my wife. I'll be making drawers, shelving, & double closet rods; maybe a raked section with a bead at the bottom for shoes. Would dadoes or pocket holes be better? Any thoughts?

[Bruce Benjamin]

This is just me, but the moment I start using screws and nails to do joinery, I'm back into doing carpentry. Since I personally am striving to become a designer and woodworker of furniture, the standard is to form joints using wood and glue.

When I'm not being lazy, the first choice is always to form a joint which inherently has more strength to resist the various forces and a butt joint is the weakest joint of all in traditional woodworking. But, considering how limited time is right now for doing woodworking, I'd probably use a butt joint reinforced by domino tenons first or use dado's second.

Obviously the strength of different joints is debatable and as I said in my original post, I could be wrong in my way of thinking. However, I really have never understood the way of thinking that some woodworkers have that I quoted above from your post...I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. I've seen this idea posted many times before. I'm just playing devil's advocate I guess.

I'm not sure what it is about screws and/or nails that you and other woodworkers dislike so much but I can only assume that it has something to do with woodworkers in the past, (100, 200 years ago, etc.) not using screws and nails. It's not, "Traditional", right? Ok, I guess I can see where you're coming from. But nails in some form were used in some older furniture. Screws were either nonexistent or were hand made and very expensive so they were rarely used. They weren't a realistic option and modern brads and the guns that insert them didn't exist either. They didn't use them, "Way back when" because they didn't exist or weren't practical to use.

Before there were any motorized pieces of woodworking equipment they had to do everything by hand with axes, chisels, hand saws, and hand planes. Who on this forum still starts with a tree and ends up with a finished piece of furniture? There may be a few people but not many. Imagine how much fun woodworking was before those hand tools were made from higher quality steel. I wonder how many of those early woodworkers scoffed at the idea of using the new fangled modern tools being invented.

And then there is the Domino? There isn't anything about that tool that I consider to be more traditional or having more to do with real woodworking than using a pocket screw or a brad nail other than that the tenon is made from a piece of wood. And it's not even a piece of wood you produced. At least when I use my router to make loose tenon joints I have to make the tenon myself. If pocket screws could be made from wood would that make their use less like carpentry and more like woodworking? In my opinion using the Domino is closer to feeding a log into a machine and having it spit out a finished piece of furniture than using a hand drill and a pocket whole jig. At least in terms of the technology involved and the $$ you have to spend to make the joint.

Of course I'm playing devils advocate here. I don't have a problem with any method anyone wants to use to make a finished piece of furniture or a kitchen full of cabinets. I can relate to the idea that a chest of drawers held together using only complex hand-cut joints, (no power tools, please) and good ol' Titebond glue just feels better than pocket screws and brad nails. Hey, wait a minute! Titebond and epoxy is cheating too compared to hide glue or wedged tenons. You might as well be using screws and nails or a Domino when compared to using modern glue with many times the holding power and durability versus hide glue used hundreds of years ago.

My point being that what some people consider to be real woodworking, (using a Domino, dovetail jig, router, tablesaw, etc.) would be considered cheating and, "Carpentry" by someone 200 or more years ago. Everyone has their own standards of excellence. I gotta say though, I don't see how the Domino fits into anyone's definition of excellence and traditional woodworking. But I'm no wood snob and if someone wanted to give me one I'd sure take it! I just won't pretend that using one is, "Traditional woodworking".

Bruce

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm not sure which joints you are thinking about. Looking at the design in the picture, if the horizontal boards will be supporting weight (ie., are a shelf), then I would go with dados. The lip form between the dado and shelf will support far more weight than pocket screws will every think about. If the horizontal boards are merely dividers and won't support any vertical weight, then go with pocket screws.

[Jim Becker]

I'm new here & I'm gonna be building a closet organizer for my wife. I'll be making drawers, shelving, & double closet rods; maybe a raked section with a bead at the bottom for shoes. Would dadoes or pocket holes be better? Any thoughts?

There is no "better", per se. Pocket screws would be a lot faster and generally easier than grooves, dados and rebates for the carcass construction. That's how I'll be doing the closet-ware for our addition...