Pocket Hole Joinery vs Dados

[Ken Stevens]

So, I am designing away on a router stand (see in progress attachment), and I have planned to use pocket hole joinery....but I thought I would ask some opinions here about this vs dado joints.

Do any of you use PHJ and would you use it in an application like this? Why or why not? What about the advantages of dados over the PHJ? Or is just a matter of preference?

Thanks,
Ken

[Jim Becker]

I've switched over to pocket screws and wouldn't go back to dados/grooves at this point unless there was an unusual situation that warranted the extra work. Pocket screws and glue are quite strong and simple butt joints are far easier to size and cut than figuring the extra material to fit into the dados/grooves, etc. Pocket screws are essentially self-clamping after glue-up, too. (with care taken to avoiding racking while the glue fully cures)

[Gary Keedwell]

To be honest, I've used both methods on the same projects.
Gary K.

[John Thompson]

The pocket holes would be OK for the router stand as it doesn't have to support much weight. But... on a book-shelf or similar where there are multiple shelves that will be burdened with weight, I prefer dadoes as you get a ton of glue area to secure the shelf to the carcass.

If I used pocket holes on a project as that.. it takes too much time personally for me to cut a pocket.. reset the jig and cut another, etc. etc. If I had say 6 shelves I can cut the 12 dadoes grooves in under 6 minutes once a cut line tick has been laid on the stock. I have sort of a "rapid fire" method to cut dadess with a TS and it is just better and much quicker for "me".

And.. I have a feeling someone is going to question how I can set up and cut 12 dado grooves in under 6 minutes on a TS. If so.. go ahead and ask as the answer is simple.

Sarge..

[Randall Davis]

And.. I have a feeling someone is going to question how I can set up and cut 12 dado grooves in under 6 minutes on a TS. If so.. go ahead and ask as the answer is simple.

Sarge..

if the answer is so simple why dont you just say it? na! forget it i dont care!

[Bruce Benjamin]

The pocket holes would be OK for the router stand as it doesn't have to support much weight. But... on a book-shelf or similar where there are multiple shelves that will be burdened with weight, I prefer dadoes as you get a ton of glue area to secure the shelf to the carcass.

If I used pocket holes on a project as that.. it takes too much time personally for me to cut a pocket.. reset the jig and cut another, etc. etc. If I had say 6 shelves I can cut the 12 dadoes grooves in under 6 minutes once a cut line tick has been laid on the stock. I have sort of a "rapid fire" method to cut dadess with a TS and it is just better and much quicker for "me".

And.. I have a feeling someone is going to question how I can set up and cut 12 dado grooves in under 6 minutes on a TS. If so.. go ahead and ask as the answer is simple.

Sarge..

I won't question your ability to set up the dados in that time because, well, whatever. But even if you can do it in half that time you aren't taking into account the glue drying time that requires clamps. Pocket holes may or may not be slower but they save so much time overall because they require little or no clamping. How long do you have to keep your project clamped up before you can move onto the next step? I'll bet it's not faster than a pocket screw and glue joint.

That being said, I don't want to use pocket screws where they are visible when it's anything other than for shop use. To me that's where the dados have a distinct advantage and worth the extra time spent.

Bruce

[Paul Comi]

Stuff like this is what I bought the Festool Domino for. I'm not adverse to using pocket screws and even use them for making functional drawers sometimes since the slots for the screws get concealed by the applied drawer fronts, but I wouldn't rely on pocket screws for load bearing projects that would fail if the glue lost its bond. That's just me.

If the casework you're building is plywood, the strength of your joinery using butt joints reinforced by pocket screws is coming mainly from the glue which can be substantial, but I like either rabbeted dado's or domino's or even biscuits or dowels to add some extra strength.

I don't think there is much I despise more than having to remove the blade from my table saw and install a stacked dado. Before I bought the domino, I made a special sled for dado'ing parts that made it super efficient. But, with the domino, I just find the ability to dry fit parts together and sort of keep adding parts as I go to be really an enjoyable way of working for me. I was definately a doubter, but my dry fit projects are so strong that I can stand on them with confidence that they won't fall apart.

If I was using butt joints to build that router table and didn't have the domino and also didn't want to install the stacked dado, I'd either use a router with an edge guide and cut rabbeted dados or regular dados or I'd pick up some Miller dowels. My .02

[Bruce Benjamin]

Stuff like this is what I bought the Festool Domino for. I'm not adverse to using pocket screws and even use them for making functional drawers sometimes since the slots for the screws get concealed by the applied drawer fronts, but I wouldn't rely on pocket screws for load bearing projects that would fail if the glue lost its bond. That's just me.

If the casework you're building is plywood, the strength of your joinery using butt joints reinforced by pocket screws is coming mainly from the glue which can be substantial, but I like either rabbeted dado's or domino's or even biscuits or dowels to add some extra strength.

If I was using butt joints to build that router table and didn't have the domino and also didn't want to install the stacked dado, I'd either use a router with an edge guide and cut rabbeted dados or regular dados or I'd pick up some Miller dowels. My .02

I don't think you have it right regarding the strength of pocket hole screws. If you made two identical boxes made with butt joints and attached one using only glue and the other using only pocket hole screws, which one do you think would fail first if you jumped on it? The pocket holes screws are going to be stronger than the glue in a joint using a combination of the two but a combination of the two is even better. Glue in a shelf using only a butt joint and do one with pocket hole screws. Which one will you want to stand on? End grain doesn't glue very well whether you're using solid or plywood. Obviously, the pocket hole screws provide the majority of the strength in a glue/screw combination joint.

I've never used Miller dowels but they're just made of wood, right? How are they stronger than steel screws? Since I've never used them I don't know what their strength is for shear strength or racking resistance. But I doubt that it's more than a steel pocket screw. Could be wrong though I suppose.

Bruce

[Paul Comi]

I don't think you have it right regarding the strength of pocket hole screws. If you made two identical boxes made with butt joints and attached one using only glue and the other using only pocket hole screws, which one do you think would fail first if you jumped on it? The pocket holes screws are going to be stronger than the glue in a joint using a combination of the two but a combination of the two is even better. Glue in a shelf using only a butt joint and do one with pocket hole screws. Which one will you want to stand on? End grain doesn't glue very well whether you're using solid or plywood. Obviously, the pocket hole screws provide the majority of the strength in a glue/screw combination joint.

I've never used Miller dowels but they're just made of wood, right? How are they stronger than steel screws? Since I've never used them I don't know what their strength is for shear strength or racking resistance. But I doubt that it's more than a steel pocket screw. Could be wrong though I suppose.

Bruce

Technically, with plywood which is what I was assuming we were talking about, half of the plies are long grain unlike a solid piece of wood which is long grain on one side and end grain on the other. I like pocket screws where applicable, but aren't the end of those screws penetrating about 3/8" into the panel? Miller dowels or confirmat screw are stronger because its not the screw that breaks, but the tip of the screw pulls out of the panel its screwed into. The miller dowel completely intersects the panel and is glued into it and the rest of the pin is sunk into the adjacent piece being joined. And a confirmat is a coarse thread beefy screw that completely intersects the panel and board in the same way providing a similar effect but without the glue inside the joinery with the exception of the edge to panel seam. This is just me, but the moment I start using screws and nails to do joinery, I'm back into doing carpentry. Since I personally am striving to become a designer and woodworker of furniture, the standard is to form joints using wood and glue.

When I'm not being lazy, the first choice is always to form a joint which inherently has more strength to resist the various forces and a butt joint is the weakest joint of all in traditional woodworking. But, considering how limited time is right now for doing woodworking, I'd probably use a butt joint reinforced by domino tenons first or use dado's second. Also, if the case has a glued on face frame and a well affixed back, thats going to add to the overall integrity of the carcase significantly. With a router table cabinet, there tends to be dividers that add to the vertical support that don't exist in something like a bookcase in which case I'd never rely on pocket screws to hold the top and bottom fixed shelves. We're not building a monument here-this is shop furniture so the main thing is to get it built and start making stuff with it.

[Bruce Benjamin]

This is just me, but the moment I start using screws and nails to do joinery, I'm back into doing carpentry. Since I personally am striving to become a designer and woodworker of furniture, the standard is to form joints using wood and glue.

When I'm not being lazy, the first choice is always to form a joint which inherently has more strength to resist the various forces and a butt joint is the weakest joint of all in traditional woodworking. But, considering how limited time is right now for doing woodworking, I'd probably use a butt joint reinforced by domino tenons first or use dado's second.

Obviously the strength of different joints is debatable and as I said in my original post, I could be wrong in my way of thinking. However, I really have never understood the way of thinking that some woodworkers have that I quoted above from your post...I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. I've seen this idea posted many times before. I'm just playing devil's advocate I guess.

I'm not sure what it is about screws and/or nails that you and other woodworkers dislike so much but I can only assume that it has something to do with woodworkers in the past, (100, 200 years ago, etc.) not using screws and nails. It's not, "Traditional", right? Ok, I guess I can see where you're coming from. But nails in some form were used in some older furniture. Screws were either nonexistent or were hand made and very expensive so they were rarely used. They weren't a realistic option and modern brads and the guns that insert them didn't exist either. They didn't use them, "Way back when" because they didn't exist or weren't practical to use.

Before there were any motorized pieces of woodworking equipment they had to do everything by hand with axes, chisels, hand saws, and hand planes. Who on this forum still starts with a tree and ends up with a finished piece of furniture? There may be a few people but not many. Imagine how much fun woodworking was before those hand tools were made from higher quality steel. I wonder how many of those early woodworkers scoffed at the idea of using the new fangled modern tools being invented.

And then there is the Domino? There isn't anything about that tool that I consider to be more traditional or having more to do with real woodworking than using a pocket screw or a brad nail other than that the tenon is made from a piece of wood. And it's not even a piece of wood you produced. At least when I use my router to make loose tenon joints I have to make the tenon myself. If pocket screws could be made from wood would that make their use less like carpentry and more like woodworking? In my opinion using the Domino is closer to feeding a log into a machine and having it spit out a finished piece of furniture than using a hand drill and a pocket whole jig. At least in terms of the technology involved and the $$ you have to spend to make the joint.

Of course I'm playing devils advocate here. I don't have a problem with any method anyone wants to use to make a finished piece of furniture or a kitchen full of cabinets. I can relate to the idea that a chest of drawers held together using only complex hand-cut joints, (no power tools, please) and good ol' Titebond glue just feels better than pocket screws and brad nails. Hey, wait a minute! Titebond and epoxy is cheating too compared to hide glue or wedged tenons. You might as well be using screws and nails or a Domino when compared to using modern glue with many times the holding power and durability versus hide glue used hundreds of years ago.

My point being that what some people consider to be real woodworking, (using a Domino, dovetail jig, router, tablesaw, etc.) would be considered cheating and, "Carpentry" by someone 200 or more years ago. Everyone has their own standards of excellence. I gotta say though, I don't see how the Domino fits into anyone's definition of excellence and traditional woodworking. But I'm no wood snob and if someone wanted to give me one I'd sure take it! I just won't pretend that using one is, "Traditional woodworking".

Bruce

[John Thompson]

I won't question your ability to set up the dados in that time because, well, whatever. But even if you can do it in half that time you aren't taking into account the glue drying time that requires clamps. Pocket holes may or may not be slower but they save so much time overall because they require little or no clamping. How long do you have to keep your project clamped up before you can move onto the next step? I'll bet it's not faster than a pocket screw and glue joint.

That being said, I don't want to use pocket screws where they are visible when it's anything other than for shop use. To me that's where the dados have a distinct advantage and worth the extra time spent.

Bruce

Morning Bruce..

And you are correct about glue time. I did say pocket holes are fine for a router table. Frankly, I probably wouldn't even bother to use pocket holes. Just pre-drill a pilot hole and counter-sink for the screw head..run a narrow glue line.. align the stock and pop the screws in with a 1/2" drill with a phillips head bit. It's just a shop item that is used to produce "show items" as I see it.

And I do agree with you totally that dadoes have a distinct advantage as in the example I mentioned with book-cases that will carry substantial weight. There is a lot of glue area in a dado not to mention the shoulder support on the opposite side of where the weight is placed.

I can cut dadoes very quickly.. accurately and safely as I mentioned as I have created an advantage. I have a dedicated TS I modified and set up just for dadoes for up to 16" wide stock. I just have to line up the tick mark and slide them though. Just something I decided to do when I upgraded my TS I use for ripping and it it definitely has proved to be a time saver and safe approach to dadoes for me.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Bruce Benjamin]

Morning Bruce..

And you are correct about glue time. I did say pocket holes are fine for a router table. Frankly, I probably wouldn't even bother to use pocket holes. Just pre-drill a pilot hole and counter-sink for the screw head..run a narrow glue line.. align the stock and pop the screws in with a 1/2" drill with a phillips head bit. It's just a shop item that is used to produce "show items" as I see it.

I wasn't saying that I'd only use pocket holes on shop cabinets. I said I'd only use them on shop cabinets when they are going to be visible. They aren't always visible in furniture making.

What's this, "Phillips head bit" you speak of??? I've never heard of such a thing? Are they new? Could you describe this whole process in more detail please?

And I do agree with you totally that dadoes have a distinct advantage as in the example I mentioned with book-cases that will carry substantial weight. There is a lot of glue area in a dado not to mention the shoulder support on the opposite side of where the weight is placed.

I don't see how you can agree with me on this because I never said or implied this at all. The only things I commented on was the visibility of pocket hole screws and the glue drying and the clamp time of a dado joint. I'm not saying I disagree with you. But I gave you nothing for you to agree with regarding the strength of the joints in my last reply to you. I don't think the dado/glue joint has a distinct advantage and I'm not sure that it's even stronger in every situation than a pocket hole screw/glue joint. A dado will probably be stronger for a shelf where the shelf isn't expected to control racking, (pushing straight down only) but I'm not convinced that a dado joint is stronger than a pocket/glue joint in every other situation. Where it is stronger I doubt that it has a, "Distinct advantage" with regards to strength and durability. One think is for certain, when a dado and glue joint fails it fails much more completely than when a pocket hole/glue joint fails. Once the glue or the wood surrounding the glue fails the joint is done. It takes more than that to rip the screw threads from their holes.

There's still a lot I like about a dado and glue joint and I have used them a lot. But I'm not so quick to dismiss the pocket hole screw joint. To each their own. It's unlikely that either of us will be exchanging furniture anytime soon.

Bruce

[Art Mann]

Like Jim, I have just about stopped cutting dados for simple cabinet construction. Pocket hole screws are easy to do and they are plenty strong enough. Why do more work for no additional benefit?

[Jim Dunn]

To be honest, I've used both methods on the same projects.
Gary K.

Me too. Found it easier to use both.

[Jason White]

Jim, I've used pocket screws for face frames, but I don't understand how they're a good choice for assembling cabinet carcasses or drawers (instead of dadoes, etc.).

How are these joints any stronger than butts joints with regular old drywall-type screws? I know that the pocket hole screws are easier to hide, but I don't get how they're any stronger. What am I missing?

JW

I've switched over to pocket screws and wouldn't go back to dados/grooves at this point unless there was an unusual situation that warranted the extra work. Pocket screws and glue are quite strong and simple butt joints are far easier to size and cut than figuring the extra material to fit into the dados/grooves, etc. Pocket screws are essentially self-clamping after glue-up, too. (with care taken to avoiding racking while the glue fully cures)