I didn't get a chance to go to the Vegas show last weekend.Any of you that did and visited the Grizzly booth,I was curious if they had their G0591 12" slider saw on display.If they did and you saw it,what were your opinions on the slider.Thank
Scott
[OP]
Member
I didn't get a chance to go to the Vegas show last weekend.Any of you that did and visited the Grizzly booth,I was curious if they had their G0591 12" slider saw on display.If they did and you saw it,what were your opinions on the slider.Thank
Scott
Member
Scott I didn't go to the Vegas show but I was on vacation in Branson Missouri about a month ago and got to look at that saw in Grizzly's showroom in Springfield. I was less than impressed by the machine. No real trunion assembly to speak of and the lack of knowledge about the machine by the sales staff was surprising. I even talked to the manager and he knew next to nothing about the saw or how sliders were really used.
Don't get me wrong he was a great guy just not real knowledgeable about the product. Makes you wonder how things will go if there is a problem.It might prove to be okay in a hobby type environment , but it is way short of anything in the MM or Felder line of equipment.
At the last the manager even told me the MM 315 and the G0591 were probably made in the same factory over seas. That was all I needed to know.
If it was me, I'd save my pennies and put my money into something more proven and far more substantial. That is just my opinion so take that for what it is worth. Best of luck.
Last edited by Chris McDowell; 07-26-2007 at 2:25 AM. Reason: spelling correction
Sponsor
Just to clarify - The MM and our machines are NOT made in the same factory. I apologize for the speculation that you received from our sales person and had a heart to heart with them today to not comment about issues they have no personal knowledge about.Originally Posted by Chris McDowell
The G0591 is a light duty machine. However, if a person is planning on spending more money, we suggest the heavy duty G0501 which is made for industrial use and we have sold many of them to production shops.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0501
The tables for these are made in Italy, but the machine is made in Taiwan.
Member
Scott,
I'm a big fan of Grizzly (I have a 12" jointer, and am planning on buying a wide-belt sander). They do some things very well, at an excellent value.
However, I don't like their sliding table saws. I have a Felder for 4 years, and used to have a Mini Max slider, so I have a fair amount of experience to go on.
At AWFS, the first thing that I looked at was the quality of the crosscut fence and flip-stop system, on the sliding table outrigger. A lot of backlash in the flip-stops, which leads to inaccuracy. I stopped there. That's the business end of a sliding table saw. Their low-end and high-end sliding saws all had this issue. If the crosscut fence system is not accurate, repeatable, easy to adjust, and easy to remove and replace without the need of recalibration, then it's not in the same league as Felder, Mini Max or Hammer. I would personally only consider those three brands, at the under $10K price level.
Todd
Member
Great info Todd. I've been looking at these sliders too, and its good to hear some feedback about these machines from a first hand source. Care to comment on you 12" jointer? I've been looking at these too. Which model do you have? I just bought the Grizzly 15" wide belt and am happy so far.
[OP]
Member
Todd
Thanks for the info.That's what I was looking for as far as a hands on opinion.I'm looking at all the options available as far as brands go.Just curious,why the switch from MM to Felder.Thanks again.
Scott
Member
The Ultimate 12" is what I have, their higher end model. Absolutely a terrific machine. Industrial controls and build quality, dead flat and parallel, vibration free.
I spent about 1/2 hour in the Grizzly booth, where a salesman sanded a piece down to a very uniform .090" thick (a good thickness for making your own veneer). They also sanded a piece down to .006"! It was incredible, it varied by only about .006 to .008". I'm fairly sold on Grizzly for wide belt sanders. I'd like to get the 15", if it performs as well as the closed end models (18" up). How do you like it?
Todd
Member
Believe it or not, I won Felder's "Sliding for Success" drawing, where you get any table saw for 1/2 price. Felder usually doesn't discount much, so this was an incredible deal. I sold my Mini Max SC4-WS and got the Felder K700S Plus, for what I sold the Mini Max for. Both are terrific machines. I'm personally partial to Felder, but would encourage anyone to look at Felder, Mini Max and Hammer, before purchasing a slider.
Todd
Member
Hi! As I was reading the sequence posts on the Griz. sliding table saw, it struck me as both most unusual, and most rewarding, that the president of Grizzley took the time to clarify a piece of misinformation. Can any of you remember when the president of any other tool manufacturer took the time to communicate with potential buyers, let alone defusing a myth that would normally help sales? (Think of Bill Ford writing in to a site in which people criticized Detroit cars' gas milage, and telling everyone that Ford makes a diesel Focus in Europe that gets 45 MPG, but that they won't sell it to you in the U.S.)
I am glad that I chose the Grizzley cabinet saw, edge, and belt sanders. These sorts of communications tend to raise my trust in a company.
Member
Thanks for the jointer info. Right now I'm leaning towards the cheaper one, but the ultimate looks awful nice. I'm still kinda sick about a new 16" Bridgewood w/ Shelix that I missed by $50 on Ebay. It went for $2600 if you can beleive it. I'm getting a little queasy right now just writing about it! I haven't gone down to .006 with the sander, but I have gone down to .02. I don't see any reason to go below that, ever. But everything is rigid and robust enough that it should be fine. I considered the 18" as well, but I sacrificed a little rigidity (assuming here, I think 15" is very rigid) and the electronic adjustment for the 30" wide capacity. That was hard to pass up. It's not just width either, you can do odd shaped pieces with the open end that would be impossible with anyting but a huge machine. The footprint is also smaller than a Performax 16-32. Very well built.
Member
If it makes you feel better you don't really know whether you missed it by $50 or not. The other party may have bid $3600, but won for $2600.
The key for me when bidding on e-bay is to put the max bid I'm willing to pay and then never look back if I don't win.
Sponsor
Hi Todd,
Thank you for your frank comments. I wish you had showed us what you felt was lacking on our external fences and what on the Felder was better so that we could have gone and looked at it and others at the show while all the players were there. Now you have given me some "homework" to do with your comments about the flip stops.
A show like this is an absolute terrific place for the consumer. He/she can see just about every make minutes from each other. We sold many sliders at the show and some people kept coming back for three days before they bought from us. Obviously they were shopping around and looking at others before settling on ours. Some day it would nice to have Jim Becker come over to our booth and go over our sliders to make suggestions (no, I'm not buying you an air ticket, Jim). A well experienced user is always the best source for information and we have made numerous improvements over the years based on customer comments.
On the subject of wide-belt sanders. Sanding down to .006" of an inch is one of those "don't try this at home" things. We bypassed the safety limit switch for the table in order to get that thin on the wood. We just do that to show the ability and accuracy of these sanders. One mistake and you risk the danger of running the drum/belt into the rubber conveyor belt and then you have a major issue. So please folks, do not bypass the limit switch on our widebelt sanders.
On the same subject, one of our salemen was giving a full sanding demo to a lady. She thanked us and walked away. Later on she came back and told us that right after we finished the sanding demo, a salesman from a European widebelt sander company was watching the whole thing, went over to her and said "now let me show you what a real widebelt sander can do" and took her to his booth and gave her a demo of their machine. She came back and bought ours. I found out about this after the fact and would have loved to have whispered sweet poems in his ear!
Lawrence - thank you for your comments.
Last edited by Shiraz Balolia; 07-27-2007 at 3:36 PM.
Moderator
Shiraz, Todd and some others here have far more experience with sliding table saws than I do and I place a lot of weight on their observations. While I truly would have loved to be at the AWFS show, it just wasn't in the cards given I was in Shanghai that week on business. But I did enjoy IWF a number of years ago...we actually crossed paths at the WOOD Magazine event, but were not introduced.
--
The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Member
I was at the AWFS in Vegas and saw the Grizzly products for the first time. I was absolutely impressed.....enough that I bought a 12" extreme jointer.(its being delivered today!) I will definitely be buying morefrom Grizzly. BTW, the guitars displayed were awesome!!!! I have played guitar since 7th grade....around '67 and have seen alot of guitars. I must say, these were the best I've ever seen. My wife took more pics of the guitars than anything....including the showgirls
Randy
Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.
Member
Shiraz,Hi Todd,
Thank you for your frank comments. I wish you had showed us what you felt was lacking on our external fences and what on the Felder was better so that we could have gone and looked at it and others at the show while all the players were there. Now you have given me some "homework" to do with your comments about the flip stops.
A show like this is an absolute terrific place for the consumer. He/she can see just about every make minutes from each other. We sold many sliders at the show and some people kept coming back for three days before they bought from us. Obviously they were shopping around and looking at others before settling on ours. Some day it would nice to have Jim Becker come over to our booth and go over our sliders to make suggestions (no, I'm not buying you an air ticket, Jim
On the subject of wide-belt sanders. Sanding down to .006" of an inch is one of those "don't try this at home" things. We bypassed the safety limit switch for the table in order to get that thin on the wood. We just do that to show the ability and accuracy of these sanders. One mistake and you risk the danger of running the drum/belt into the rubber conveyor belt and then you have a major issue. So please folks, do not bypass the limit switch on our widebelt sanders.
On the same subject, one of our salemen was giving a full sanding demo to a lady. She thanked us and walked away. Later on she came back and told us that right after we finished the sanding demo, a salesman from a European widebelt sander company was watching the whole thing, went over to her and said "now let me show you what a real widebelt sander can do" and took her to his booth and gave her a demo of their machine. She came back and bought ours. I found out about this after the fact and would have loved to have whispered sweet poems in his ear!
Lawrence - thank you for your comments.
I am really impressed with you and Grizzly, and your quest to bring so many tools within reach of mainstream woodworkers. I appreciate your efforts to offer a lower cost sliding table saw, to compete with the european manufactures.
I'll give you a quick, partial list of the things that the marketplace might demand of sliding table saws. I imagine that your sliders meet most of these, but I didn't crawl through the details of them. Perhaps other slider owners will add to this list:
1. Flip-stops are rigid and guided by bearings (such as bronze bushings), with no backlash or slop, slop that would allow the cut length to change, based on pressure exerted. If you look at a Felder 700 series or Mini Max S315, for example, these flip stops are excellent in this respect.
2. Cross-cut fence inch scale is easy to read accurately, without paralax.
3. Positive, repeatable, adjustable stops at 90 degrees for crosscut fence, in both fore and aft positions on outrigger. This should be more than just a set screw, something more substantial. Again, take a look at the Felder 700 series as an example.
4. Pivot point for crosscut fence is guided by tight bushings, eliminating all slop (if it can shift as much as a couple of thousandths, then squareness of cut may not be repeatable, after removing and replacing crosscut fence).
5. Crosscut fence is straight and rigid enough that it won't be flexed by a heavy sheet, or an operator that really jams the workpiece against it.
6. A means of setting precise common miter angles (30, 45, Etc) exactly and repeatably, such as a pin that engages holes. Also, a nice miter angle scale that is easy to set to, and accurately calibrated at the factory.
7. The sliding table is about .002 to .006" above the cast iron table saw top, at every point along it's length. Not sure if this is the right tolerance band, but should be close. This should be adjustable, in case the sliding table shifted during shipping.
8. The outrigger keeps a sheet of light or heavy stock very planer, throughout it's range of motion. This should be adjustable, in case it sags over time, or is not properly set.
9. Blade needs to be very parallel to sliding table. Needs to be adjustable.
10. Using the 5-sided cut method to verify squareness of the crosscut fence, a user should be able to adjust the crosscut fence so that it is perpendicular to the cut within .010" over 8'. I typically adjust mine to be within .006" over 8'. There is a write-up on the 5-sided cut method on the Felder Owner's Group. The crosscut fence and outrigger should be able to be removed and replaced a bunch of times, without this squareness changing significantly. This is really key, as many remove the outrigger and crosscut fence often, when doing smaller work.
11. A small, accurate crosscut fence should be offered, that can be used without the outrigger, for smaller work. This crosscut fence should have a repeatable hardstop at exactly 90 degrees, and a means to accurately set miter angles.
12. Thorough documentation and an expert technical staff to help users with issues, as they arise (and they will). This is absolutely a must, otherwise new users will be lost if they need to calibrate something.
Lots of other important details, surrounding the riving knife, scoring blade, and rip fence that I didn't mention, but those need to be top notch as well.
There is an "Unofficial Survival Guide" for Felder sliding table saws, written by David Best, that is about 300 pages of how to calibrate and use sliding table saws. This has a lot of detail that I think would be valuable to understanding what a state-of-the-art sliding table saw should be, addressing everything I mentioned above and more. There's a link to it on the Felder Owner's Group.
I hope this is useful to you. When I have more time, I'd love to pick your brain to decide which widebelt sander would be right for my needs (veneer work from resaw).
Regards,
Todd
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