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Thread: Shop renovation -- What do I do?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Brush Prairie, WA
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    Shop renovation -- What do I do?

    Hey, guys. I've been lurking for awhile, and love all the advice. I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring and ask for some shop advice, though I need loads of it in most areas.

    We have a couple of acres near Mt St. Helens in Southwest Washington. On the top acre is the house, and on the bottom acre is the...uhhh..."Shop". It's a converted (poorly) 24'x24' pole barn that was renovated into a hobby auto shop, then we bought the place, and it was my dream shop. 12' - 14' ceiling, wood stove, epoxy-over-concrete floor. It is a good 75 yards from the house, on the only flat spot on the lower 1/2 of the property, in the midst of huge old blue spruces and cedars.

    What started as a wood-post, tin-sided and -roofed pole barn was converted...mostly. They left gaps at the top of the wall-joists (6", all the way around), left the roof tin (you look up from inside, and that's all you see), the gable ends are simply translucent plastic corrugation (again, that's what you see from the inside, too!) The power was unacceptable - being so far from the house and poorly run, I could kick the breaker at the house by running a skil saw.

    First thing we did was upgraded the power. Had some electricians come out and ran huge cables for a 100-amp single-phase box down there. Ok, compressor runs, saws are good, lighting is great.

    So, after using it a couple of years, it's become apparent that it's not going to do it for me as it sits. With the tin roof (in moderate condition, but uninsulated), there's constant moisture. I can't actually work on any projects from October thru July (our rainy season) because of the moisture, both in the air, in the wood, and on the tools. I end up spending the first 1/2 hour of each session scrubbing at all the tables with WD-40 and ScotchBrite, and then re-waxing them. I've got rust spots on all of the cast tables (bandsaw, jointer, tablesaw, lathe ways, etc.), and it's ruining my tools. It's gotten to the point now that I'm finding pine needles stuck in things after a bit of wind. Now, there's mold growing through the sheetrock at one gable-end. (*groan*)

    We've considered putting money into knocking this one down and putting something 2-story up in its place. But the costs are prohibitive. I can see doing all the sheetrock/electrical/finish work, but I'm not much of a framer. By myself, I can't repair the roof - sheeting's too heavy, it's too high, too hard to get a small lift in there (you need 4x4 to get up to the shop from the gravel access road), and too much of a project for me, I'm afraid.

    It's an old building, as far as pole barns go -- 25 years or so. It's godawful ugly, and deafening when it rains...which is most of the time around here. But it's my SHOP! I love it, despite all the faults.

    I've got a few weeks of vacation coming up at work, and am not even sure where to start. It feels overwhelming at this point. But I've got to protect the tools, I've got to be able to heat it.

    So...where DO I start? Get a contractor out here? I've had two, so far, for estimates. We can't reasonably see spending more than $10k getting it remodeled, as a new pole barn exactly like this one is only $5k (Of course, that won't solve our problems, either). The roofing estimates I've gotten (R&R the entire thing, rolled shingle roofing to replace this, leave insulating and gable-ends to me) are $5k and change.

    It seems that sealing/insulating will at least give me a good base to be able to repair and use the shop. Duh. But are there cheaper/temporary options that may help out? I have another building (a converted garage, no real power to speak of, just studs and siding) that's about 18x20 that would work for temporary storage or...as my new shop. Gaaah. I hate to lose the square footage, as I feel cramped as is in the big one. And, it's very near the house, so the noise factor is still an issue.

    Man, I feel like I'm telling my life story. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

    My concerns are: money, tools, comfort...in that order. I can live with being uncomfortable and repairing the tools and running the woodstove often if it's too damned expensive to repair, and instead I have to save my money for 3 or 4 years and have a real shop put up. Or, I would love to get this thing workable and be able to work in a nice, comfy shop, if there's a labor-intensive way I can fix it.

    This all boils down to a few questions, now that you know what I'm up against. 1. Is there a way to repair/replace the roof that will magically work? Some combination of Tyvek, roofing tar, and foam insulation that will fix this flimsy, 2x6 on 24" tin roof? 2. Is it worth all of our budgeted savings to have a roofer come out and just get it done, so I can focus on woodwork? 3. Should I just repair a bit and then limp along for a few years in the hopes of getting a new shop at some point? 4. I sold my bandsaw last week, in the hopes of purchasing that Laguna 18" I've had my eye on, but...when SWMBO and I discussed it, she reminded me that I may have the only rusty Laguna in the entire country come November. And that would make me cry. A lot. So, no bandsaw until the shop's repaired, replaced...whatever. And, of course, the Laguna would come out of the $5k budget, so that may have to wait until next year...or the year after. 5. I can R&R the sheetrock, so that's not a big deal, but...again, it doesn't make sense to do that until this is relatively watertight and humidity-controlled.

    Any advice or comments would be appreciated. I'm sure someone, somewhere has gone through this before.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Instead of tackling the roof, itself...assuming it's sound, why not put in a flat ceiling that you can insulate? That would make the space heatable for the winter and more comfortable in the summer. It would also deaden the "tap-tap" when it's raining. And it's likely something you can do yourself.

    Oh, and welcome to the posting side of SMC!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Brush Prairie, WA
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    And more

    I re-read, and some things I forgot to mention. The renovation work they did consisted of sheetrocking and insulating everything from the top of the 4 walls down. It's a given that I'll have to repair the 6" gaps at the top of the walls - I may do that today.

    Also, there are, at the front of the shop, two huge garage doors - one wood frame-and-panel that's about 8x10, and another insulated steel that's 10x10 (with broken spring). We're thinking of removing the 8x10, and replacing with an insulated wall, then repairing the insulated one. This smart? Or is the wooden one (more aesthetic, for sure) insulation enough & a better keeper?

    When I first got here, I invested about $750 in new chipboard/laminate cabinets all the way around - they are literally DRIPPING off the walls. Three of the 10 have fallen down (or leaped off the wall in hope of a better life in some other place). They'll all have to be junked.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    On the doors, if you don't need both, than removing one and replacing with a wall isn't a horrible idea. And don't forget windows for natural light. They can be higher on the wall if you are concerned with space.

    Proper insulation up above should help with your moisture problem...hopefully it's that and not real leaks.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brush Prairie, WA
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    Ceiling

    That's an awesome idea! Two concerns, and maybe they're easily addressed.

    First, If I do nothing to the roof, where would the water (that now drips in in 30 spots) go? Could I staple tyvek to the interior of the rafters and at least route it back outside? Would I crawl around on the roof with tar and repair the leaks, then put in the ceiling, so it can last?

    Second, and again, maybe this is easy, because of the nature of this pole building, there's no center support (except a single vertical 8x8) due to the fact that the single beam is along the roofline. Do I need to just tack a (floating?) ledger board between the center post and the front/back end posts as the 12' point across the room?

    You know what, that doesn't make any sense to ask, since no one has seen it.

    That's a great idea, though - I'll go look and see if I can figure out the mechanics of it.

  6. #6

    Post MAke the repairs if,,,,,

    Nathen,
    If I were you , and the building (framing & Foundation) are rock solid- re-do the roof- (not rolled roofing) if it is 24" oc roof joists install a new joists in between ,after the old roofing has been removed, to give you 12"oc -baffle and insulate it if you have soffit overhangs for ventilation /then a 3mill Polly beerier stapled to the joists to seal everything up then moisture resistant drywall (fire coded) - use a good architectural shingle 30 year at least. and a ridge vent the entire length of the peak. this system is the most efficient and will allow good circulation of the roof and will actually help the life of the roofing material.
    insulate the wall cavities- if you can't put craft faced insulation in, you cellulose blown insulation and that can be done from either inside or outside and then plugged where the ports were drilled for the blower nozzle.
    I would definitely heat the building- get a good gas/propane heater- they are fairly inexpensive and work well. If you can do most of this with a Friend that will help you I figure it will cost you under $6,000.00 and that includes the heater. It may even be less than that figure I quoted you.
    I have to agree with your wife- you are putting the cart before the horse by purchasing more tools before you rectify this problem- moisture is nothing but a PITA and will effect everything you have in the shop.
    If it is not a stable foundation and frame building- then I would tear it down and start over but if you can repair the building with substantial savings and overall revive it back to a rock solid building then - go that route.

    I hope my input helped and I can understand your dilemma , but you have to start at the crux of the problem and go from there
    Last edited by Brian Weick; 07-21-2007 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Missed anme of author on thread

  7. #7

    Post functionality and planning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Instead of tackling the roof, itself...assuming it's sound, why not put in a flat ceiling that you can insulate? That would make the space heatable for the winter and more comfortable in the summer. It would also deaden the "tap-tap" when it's raining. And it's likely something you can do yourself.

    Oh, and welcome to the posting side of SMC!

    Yes - I would agree with that thought as well Jim- not a bad idea but there are two areas that are drawbacks to that:
    One being he has lost open space which could be planned and utilized wisely.
    Two is the roof itself and the functioning and efficiency of the building as far as breathing and insulating - the roof (if in bad shape) will have to be addressed in the long run and should be done properly . If he is doing this to avoid the real proble-the roof he is going to be shelling out more money in the long run- putting that ceiling up and then later the roof- think about it? not a wise plan. It is a good idea, don't get me wrong- I like it! but as soon as I read "DRIPPING" in his thread- not good!

    You have a great idea Jim but I must say (as a former General contractor) he really should do it write the first time and not try to cut corners - you have to face the music sometime and delaying the problem will only result in dire consequences later in time. this is only my opinion as far as how I would address this problem if it were mine.
    Last edited by Brian Weick; 07-21-2007 at 12:14 PM. Reason: adding text

  8. #8
    At the end of the day when you're falling asleep, may it be of some consolation that you've given me hope, and are living on my dream property. I'm only 150 miles away or so, but it feels like a million.
    As far as your project, I say button up what you've got first so that you're storm and rain proof - the shop isn't much of a relaxing haven with moisture problems, and in our beautiful Cascades that means not much relaxing until you get the roof fixed. Good luck, and I'm hoping you might post some pictures of your property and the shop.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Brush Prairie, WA
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    So, I agree that it will have to be addressed sometime. What if I consider this a temporary measure - to protect the tools for the next couple of years - with the plan of putting up a real...nice...functional shop in its place within the next 4 or 5 years? Would Jim's idea alleviate the dripping/moisture problems in the near-term enough for me to live with it for a few years?

    Or is it only going to last a year or so before I'm whining again?

    Spending the money to have someone else re-roof now IS an option, and would solve the problem immediately without me having to do all that much labor. Just insulation, cleanup and then enjoyment. It's attractive from that POV, at least.

  10. #10

    Exclamation roof problem

    Nathan,
    If you have a roof problem now- it will only get worse as time goes on-putting that sub ceiling up isn't really solving anything- it deflects the issue and isn't solving the problem it is "Deflecting the problem".
    If you want a solid and functional shop - do it write and you won't regret it one bit- do it in phases and like I said - get some Friends to help and you will save a lot of money and you will also have the satisfaction of doing it yourself and you will know it was done write and it will last the test of time. It isn't that difficult- get up there, rip that tin roof off , put in the roof joists (if it is 24" oc) install new 1/2" plywood (not-OSB-not a big fan of that for roof sheathing) install ice and water shield on the eves, use #30lb felt instead of #15 , the price difference is hardly noticeable because it is a small roof project, cut the peak vent gap (3-1/2) for the ridge vent (not rolled venting- vinyl 4' sections with filtering screen) install drip edging on the eves and rake edge on the gables or go with drip edge all the way around - that will extend the roofing 1" all the way around and will look nice as well. install a good 30yr shingle and your finished. you can tackle the baffles and insulation for the roof rafters from the inside. But at least you will be able to feel comfortable about your shop not leaking anymore. YOU CAN DO THIS! Just do it write and you will be glad you did the proper planing and construction.
    Brian

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Brush Prairie, WA
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    Photos of everything

    Hey, Todd. Thanks for the encouragement. I hadn't looked at it like that. And, great idea on the photos - I ran down and took some. Here are a bunch that may help get an idea of what I'm working with.

    Ick. It looks worse than I thought in photo form. (*sigh*)

    More opinions after seeing pictures, anyone?

    http://picasaweb.google.com/nathanconner/72107Shop

  12. #12

    Thumbs up Exactly as I Pictured

    Nathan,
    My responses to your thread are correct- RIP that noisy leaky roof of and go with the new roof- that's my input and definitely seal up those gable ends- no surprise you have moisture problems- looks like you have some solid ground and framing to work with - I would definitely do the fabrication of the roofing joists and roof that puppy- you will be smiling from ear to ear the next time it rains!

  13. #13
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    Brian, I believe I just wasn't clear enough...in a round about way, I did indicate that the roof needed to be sound before considering an interior ceiling. I did a poor job of that and thanks for being more to the point. A bad roof needs attention first.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #14
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    Have you identified where the water leaks in the roof? With the skylights, there are extra seams that water can get into. If the material is sound, it is possible to reseal things to get it weather tight. If the material is bad, definately replace it. The roof is your first concern. The gable ends are clear plastic panels? At least trim the edges with wood and caulk the heck out of it, inside and out to weather proof it. Again, if the panels are damaged, take them out and stud in walls, sheath it inside and out, again making sure the seams are caulked and weather proof. THEN work on the inside. A false ceiling with insulation would make the most sense. Might be able to do a drop in ceiling, and have insulation on top of that. Both would help on noise and temperature control. Jim.
    Coolmeadow Setters...Exclusively Irish! When Irish Eyes are smiling....They're usually up to something!!
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  15. #15
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    Nathan,
    Looks like you have a solid building to start with. I'd rip off the roof steel and put another purlin between the existing ones, apply 1/2" CDX and the shingle roof (with ridge vent) of your choice. I can't see the benefit of adding more rafters...the existing look plenty beefy. Then I'd box in those overhangs at the eaves with some perforated soffit material. Next would be to re do the gable ends with an attractive material. Back at the ceiling, I would install vent chutes from the wall to the ridge on the underside of the roof deck, then 6" of fiberglass insulation covered with more white pole barn steel, my personal ceiling of choice due to its speed of installation and low maintenance.
    Kyle in K'zoo
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