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Thread: Earth is Billions of Years Old, and Yet We Take Credit for the Climate!!!

  1. #1
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    Earth is Billions of Years Old, and Yet We Take Credit for the Climate!!!

    In my last post about causes for global warming I was asked what was my point in posting something controversial. My answer:

    Of course posting something controversial is entertainment. Why do it if it’s not fun (just like woodworking)? But I’m not entertained by aggravating people. I just wanted to see some opinions from people I have something in common with. I don’t feel like I have much in common with the news media, the U.N., or the public in general, the vast majority of whom take it for granted that global warming is necessarily man-made.

    I thought it would be entertaining to try to insert a little science into the debate. Most of what I hear about global warming is not science. I’ve read and heard statements like, “This is the warmest winter ever…” Doesn’t this strike you as ridiculous? We are in the middle of a multi-million year ice age, and yet ice at the poles is the exception in earth’s history. Dinosaurs, large trees, and wetland ecosystems have thrived at the poles. There are coal deposits of polar origin. This speaks of incredible climate change in the past (all well documented), and it flies in the face of the popular theory that we are ruining the climate.

    It’s not scientific to say: “we emit carbon dioxide, it’s a greenhouse gas, and therefore we are responsible for global warming.” That’s a hypothesis, an assumption, not a theory, and not a fact. Just because it could be true doesn’t mean that it is true. You need proof. Science is the process of turning a hypothesis into a theory that explains your observations and ultimately withstands counter theories to become fact. Proof is not a cluster of U.N. or government funded scientist who proclaim “it is highly likely global warming has been caused by human activity...” Consider these scientists’ motivation, who they are paid by, what kind of proposals get funding (accompanied of course by the popular hypothesis), and then ask them to explain the extraordinary climate changes that predated people burning fossil fuels and why those same natural mechanisms could not be in place today. They can’t do it. Their theory is thereby shot down.

    Science and fact are not determined by votes from well paid scientists. A single proven observation, which doesn’t even have to come from a scientist, can topple a theory held dear by the highest paid scientists.* Wouldn’t you agree there is overwhelming evidence of drastic climate change predating people? Congratulations. You have just stripped bare the theory that humans have caused the current climate change. Where's their rebuttal? Where's your rebuttal?



    *Example of “iron clad” theory of a well paid scientist being obliterated:

    In the mid-1800’s Lord Kelvin was the dominant scientist who nailed down the age of the earth at about 100 million years old based on his indisputable thermodynamic calculations. He took the heat energy the earth must have started with (converted from gravitational potential energy released by collapsing enough dust to build our planet, sink most of the heavy stuff to the core, and float the light scummy crust, particularly continents, to the surface), divided by the rate of heat flow from the earth (derived from the temperature gradient established by mining and well data), and came up with the 100 million year figure that nobody could shoot down…until a few decades later when radioactivity was discovered and the enormous amount of heat produced by naturally occurring radioactive decay proved the age of the earth to be billions rather than millions of years old.
    Last edited by Ed Garrett; 06-26-2007 at 11:27 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Garrett View Post
    and then ask them to explain the extraordinary climate changes that predated people burning fossil fuels and why those same natural mechanisms could not be in place today. They can’t do it. Their theory is thereby shot down.
    I found it disheartening when during a recent interview by a local Toronto radio station David Suzuki walked out... the interviewer got to the point where he wanted to talk about the science behind global warming, David Suzuki got furious and stormed out of the interview. One would have thought that being a scientist he would relish the opportunity to talk about the science of such a 'big' global issue.

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    There are questions yet to be answered, and also (IMHO) yet to be asked, on this topic. But the loudest voices on the two sides of the issue seem to be reduced to using the following kinds of arguments:
    1. "You can't prove every detail, therefore you must be completely wrong."
    2. "Something is wrong, therefore fixing it must be our highest priority, regardless of whether that is even possible."

    I find both positions a bit...childish.
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    Good Science / Bad Science...

    Wayne,

    Good Example. Good science holds up to good questions. Bad science denies the facts or refuses to answer.

    Lee,

    I would agree that extremist are often wrong, but I wouldn’t characterize my little thorn in this popular mania as extreme or a detail. Extreme is what happened to our climate before humans came along. A detail is the relatively minimal climate change we are experiencing today. I only contend that nature has proven to be far more powerful than we are and that we tend to give ourselves more credit than we deserve. Before Copernicus, we thought the sun, the planets, and the stars all revolved around the earth. Many who previously dared to contend that we weren't the center of the universe were tortured and killed. Such is the nature of the vast majority who will latch onto a simplistic explanation and refuse to be confronted with contradictory facts.
    Last edited by Ed Garrett; 06-26-2007 at 12:56 PM.

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    Think of the earth as a largish, roundish piece of dirt floating through space. The space is a vacuum, containing other largish, roundish, etc. objects. Our piece of dirt swings around the sun in an orbit determined by its velocity and the pull of gravity of the sun. If the velocity or the pull of gravity change, the orbit changes. We are in balance with the sun.
    Our piece of dirt has its own atmosphere, and this atmosphere determines the types and varieties of life that are possible on this piece of dirt. These life forms receive sustenance from the sun, which provides the necessary heat. If this heat all stays inside the atmosphere, the earth is going to heat up very fast, and all life forms will perish. So, the heat must escape from the earth and its atmosphere, to be lost in space. If the heat escapes too fast, everything on earth will freeze. It is sort of like having the right number of blankets on your bed in the wintertime.
    So, here is another, natural, delicate balance. That is, just the correct amount of heat must escape our atmosphere. Now, what controls the rate at which this heat escapes? It appears to be a "blanket" of gases, mostly methane and carbon dioxide. These gases, based on their concentration (with various other gases) in our atmosphere, allow heat from the sun to quickly penetrate to the ground, but act to regulate the rate the heat escapes from the ground and goes to the vacuum. That is why they are called "greenhouse gases." They act just like the cover of a greenhouse.
    The mix of gases has been forming over billions of years. Plants are constantly generating new carbon dioxide to replace that which is lost, thus acting to maintain the surface temperature necessary for them to thrive. Life has evolved based on the delicate balance of gases in the atmosphere, e. g., determined by the differential between the rate of generation of carbon dioxide and the loss of carbon dioxide to space.
    Now once again, position your perspective in space and imagine this slowly turning piece of dirt, rotating through space with its atmosphere, and imagine removing much of the vegetation that has been providing the carbon dioxide. Further, imagine industries developed by the life forms on the earth spewing larger and larger quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Humans can respond to temperature changes, to some degree. Other life forms are not so adaptable, and a small change in temperature dooms them. Their demise has a cascading effect on other life forms, including humans.
    The earth will survive, but life forms will definitely be different unless this imbalance between generation and loss of greenhouse gases is corrected.

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    The primary greenhouse gas is water vapor

    There is a delicate balance going on with greenhouse gases, but why should we be so certain we have a major influence on that balance. The primary greenhouse gas is water vapor. CO2 and methane are very minor components of the greenhouse effect. Look it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Garrett View Post
    but why should we be so certain we have a major influence on that balance.

    Quite simply, Human EGO. The thing that makes us think, we are the only intelligent life here, and possibly anywhere.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Randal Stevenson View Post
    Quite simply, Human EGO. The thing that makes us think, we are the only intelligent life here, and possibly anywhere.
    I dont want to stray off topic to much but there is nothing wrong with an ego, its more a case of a lack of control over the ego that creates mess. i.e the horse and not the rider is in charge, an unfortunate situation.
    Last edited by Wayne Watling; 06-26-2007 at 3:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Garrett View Post
    In my last post about causes for global warming I was asked what was my point in posting something controversial. My answer:

    Of course posting something controversial is entertainment. Why do it if it’s not fun (just like woodworking)? But I’m not entertained by aggravating people. I just wanted to see some opinions from people I have something in common with. I don’t feel like I have much in common with the news media, the U.N., or the public in general, the vast majority of whom take it for granted that global warming is necessarily man-made.
    Ed,

    I wondered why you posted some many controversial topics. Now I know why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Watling View Post
    I dont want to stray off topic to much but there is nothing wrong with an ego, its more a case of a lack of control over the ego that creates mess. i.e the horse and not the rider is in charge, an unfortunate situation.

    That is why I used "quite simply". There could be a whole disertation on Ego and the good and bad and examples of each "aka, let's see who can find a cure/solution for xyz first, verses, I am the only one right".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Garrett View Post
    There is a delicate balance going on with greenhouse gases, but why should we be so certain we have a major influence on that balance. .
    "Certainty" is a tough thing on either side of the argument, but being concerned isn't a horrible stance to take. If humanity takes steps to at least attempt to minimize our impact on our planet's health, than we can get closer to the certainty that we are less likely to be part of the issue, if it does exist. In the tech world, this kind of thing gets labeled as a "best practice". Even if one doesn't believe that humans have had/can have a major effect on global warming, it's not a horrible thing to live responsibly and leave things better than they were when we individually arrived on the scene. It seems to me that would be in the "best practice" category, too...
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  12. #12
    The earth being billions of years old VS our taking credit or blame for the climate is a rediculous premise. Of course we can have an effect on the environment and the age of the environment has nothing to do with our abilities.

    Can't you knock down a 1,000 year old tree with a quart of gasoline in a chainsaw?

    Can't you kill a 100 year old man with a garage filled with a car's exhaust emisions just as dead as a newborn?

    Age and effect are non-connectors.

    Look up the connection between spraying DDT and the Condor, then tell me we can't harm the billion year old ecosystem. Scientists got that one wrong, didn't they?

    Less than 1% of the water on this planet is fresh water. How many degrees will we allow the atmosphere to rise? How about enough to turn it all into vapor. Did that prove we are responsible?? Who cares - it's too late, isn't it....
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    I was with you till this point Joe...
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Melton View Post
    Plants are constantly generating new carbon dioxide to replace that which is lost, thus acting to maintain the surface temperature necessary for them to thrive. Life has evolved based on the delicate balance of gases in the atmosphere, e. g., determined by the differential between the rate of generation of carbon dioxide and the loss of carbon dioxide to space.
    I think you may want to revisit the "respiration" cycle in plants.

    In general, I think we don't have anywhere near the amount or quality of data we would need to reach the conclusions we have about what our effect is on the world beyond the natural fluctuations. However, we can certainly see that even if the effect we are having is much less than currently indicated by the global warming proponents, I think we can all agree that eventually our industrial nature will make some impact and that there is no reason not to look for ways to minimize it in the future for the same reason we wouldn't want to cut down all the trees right this minute no matter how much beautifully figured wood they have in them. We want them to be around later as well.

    If you agree with the basic premise that our industrial nature is going to eventually do bad things to our planet (above and beyond anything that has happened so far) then I think that instead of arguing the merits of global warming science and other similar ideas, it will be more productive to help develop a culture where we try to minimize our impact because it is the responsible thing to do. Much easier said than done of course but it certainly isn't going to accomplish itself (unless you count when the Earth gets so bad that we all die off then it recovers millions of years later without us).

    Just some food for thought.

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    I agree with what Jim said earlier. I not an environmental scientist and cerainly don't have the time to indulge in research and study to settle an argument. But I do know this.

    1. There is an overwhelming majority of environmental scientists who strongly believe that the humans are significantly contributing towards the current global warming. Please don't ask me to provide numbers of what constitutes "overwhelming"

    2. I live in a house and share it with the rest of the family and we collectively take responsibility to keep is clean and healthy. I pull the flush after I use the toilet, if someone spills a drink they clean it up and so on. I look at earth like a much bigger house shared between a much bigger family (and by family I mean living organisms not just humans). We have to make sure we do our part to keep it clean and healthy for all members of the family.

    3. Let's look at the cost of being wrong on either side of the argument. If humans have no impact on the global warming and we go everything possible to reduce pollution, conserve our eco system and in general be more careful about the environment. I can't see how any of these actions could be harmful in anyway. We'll probably throw out our sneakers only after they have worn out, as opposed to they got out of fashion, or maybe we will have to drive a smaller vehicle etc. On the other hand if humans do have an impact on the environment and we do nothing to change our behavior, it doesn't take much to grasp the disaster that could happen as a result of our negligence.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that the cost of being a respobsible citizen is so small and the cost of being wrong so great that it should be abvious what needs to be done.
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    Again we can go back to the Earth goes through cycles. If water vapor is the most prevalent greenhouse gas, when the Earth warms up we get more water vapor. Right? To a point after a while you get cloud cover that would reflect the light back into space and the Earth would then cool down. We go through stages.

    As a previous post stated we are a speck of dust in orbit. But our obrit is not round. The closer and further we get from the sun in our eliptical orbit will cause cooling and heating.

    Nor is our revolution stable. Our poles here on Earth switch around constantly, We are bound to have another magnetic pole shift in the future as they have occured in the past. I know that this has not been studied as part of the global warming "PROBLEM". I fell the magnetic field around us has a lot more to do with our weather than they suppose. If it changes so does the weather, and it changes constantly. The North pole has shifted about 650 miles since we mapped it in 1831. How does this affect our weather. Especially since it has been increasing it's rate of travel. Could that have to do with the warming we have been seeing? From 1831 to 1904 the pole moved about 31 miles, since then it hace raced towards Siberia. You will find this has not been studied because it might not affect our weather. HMMMMM how did they figure that it doesn't. The only record we have correlate to warnig trends as the magnetic field moves further from geographic North.

    Out put of the sun is also not constant. The more output from the sun the warmer the climate.

    All this is to say there are way too many predictors and equations the scientists have either not figured in or left out on purpose, to say for sure what is causing the current conditions.

    Yes we should probably err on the sied of caution, but not at such a huge expense as what it would cost. Bio fuels are not a good answer, only free sources of power would help. By free I mean solar, wind, and nuclear. They do not require any burning to produce power, therefor are what I personally call free. Nuclear is not the best option, but for the price it is the best alternative right now. We say electric cars, the power still comes from coal, oil, natural gas plants burning to produce it. We need to further research stuff before we start implementing things that will ont only help much, but will be exorbitant in costs.

    Evolutionist's, Christians, and other religions, all believe a little differently. That's just the way it is.

    Hey either way the Earth is renewed and there are no more issues!
    Last edited by Dennis Peacock; 06-26-2007 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Removed religious references.
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