Equipping $100,000 shop

[CPeter James]

No, it is not a joke. I will be assisting in the purchasing of the equipment for a new high school shop. There will be both wood and metal working equipment. The equipment will be of very high quality and mostly industrial size (PM 66 5hp 3ph; 20" planer; etc). I am looking for a source of reviews and comparisons. In have some ideas, but any input would be helpful. Anybody's list of what to buy and what not to buy would also assist. At this point, the sheet is blank.

The original budget was $247,000, but I would like to come in at half of that for both metal and woodworking. The school will have about 500 students and about 20 in a class. These will be "exploritory" classes, not shop majors.

Thanks,

CPeter

[Steven Wilson]

I would probably skip the Powermatic and go with a Felder or Altendorf sliding table saw, maybe a Martin and also a sliding table, tilting Shaper. A separate jointer and planer would be good. I would look at a 12" or 16" jointer and a 20" planer. Don't forget a few decent handtools - not everything can/should be done with a machine. Hand tools are good to make things fit. Over on the Felder forum on Yahoo was a good discusion last summer about equiping a shop in Goma (Africa) with Felder equipment and the joys and tribulations of doing such a deed in such different surroundings.

[CPeter James]

I would probably skip the Powermatic and go with a Felder or Altendorf sliding table saw, maybe a Martin and also a sliding table, tilting Shaper. A separate jointer and planer would be good. I would look at a 12" or 16" jointer and a 20" planer. Don't forget a few decent handtools - not everything can/should be done with a machine. Hand tools are good to make things fit. Over on the Felder forum on Yahoo was a good discusion last summer about equiping a shop in Goma (Africa) with Felder equipment and the joys and tribulations of doing such a deed in such different surroundings.

I think that convetional equipment would be better accepted by the paying public. That is how I got to do this volunteer job. I want tools the common man might recognise and not to be too exotic. I am hoping to get good solid basics. A sliding table is nice, I have a retofit on my saw in my shop at home and really like it. Space is going to be a problem. The shop is small for the amount of things that they think they want to do. For instance, it may be necessary to go with a 30" fence on the saw for lack of width. They have considered a panel saw in the first go round and that may be a viable option, I don't know how accurate they are, though.

Thans for the input.

CPeter

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm sure both Jack Grube and Tom Ciccarello would be willing to help you out. In fact Jack is chairman of the New England Woodworking teachers association or whatever they call that group.

[Jim Becker]

Bucks County Community College replaced virtually all their shop equipment about a year ago and chose to go with an assortment of Felder and other high-end gear for both duty cycle and safety. (Better guards and designs for that with such things as riving knives. They also did it on a reasonable budget since a large chunk of it was grant money that Mark Sfirri was able to land. It's really transformed the shop, frankly, and the addition of lighting upgrades and a big-#$$ Oneida cyclone system really made for a total shop makeover.

The point I derived from my conversations after the upgrade is that the more industrial type equipment is going to take the wear and tear that a student shop delves out better than some other options might and that might preserve the investment for a longer time. But that's just an opinion I have and I do understand that many folks may feel more comfortable with the stuff they see at the woodworking stores.

[Dean Baumgartner]

I might almost think that staying with equipmnet that is resonable for the average person to have access to might be better where possible. How many of us have a 16" joiner at home? Is the goal to teach kids how to make things with only top of the line equipment or how to work with wood and produce the best they can with what's available. I remember taking shop in high school, making some really nice things and then being dissapointed that I couldn't even come close with what I had available at home.

Just a different approach.

Dean

[John Weber]

I disagree with Steve and Jim, I would stay away from the high end Felders, etc... First the students are not going to see this stuff again, and you are going to eat up your budget real fast. If is wasn't an intro type program, well maybe, but for entry level I would stick with quality machines that have withstood the test of time in school environments. What I would really consider is the guy selling the comlete shop on ebay for $45,000 including delivery. What you get is quality machines, and TOOLING (very expensive for startup) and end up with a sweet shop that would likely be close to $100,000 if everything was purchased new. If also gives you cash for wood, mulitple hand tools (20 block planes, 20 hand saws, 20 work stations, etc...) It would be nice if you could find benches at another school action, because they usually go cheap and are expensive to buy new. Setting up work stations and a small tool set for 20 studends will likely eat another $15,000, you figure another $5,000 for wood, and you still have $35,000 to set up the machining side. With that you could get a couple used CNC machines, maybe a EDM, or a couple metal lathes and a Bridgeport. $100,000 sounds like a lot, but tooling will eat it up like crazy. The shop on ebay could really get you started and be very budget friendly.

John

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=11810

[CPeter James]

I'm sure both Jack Grube and Tom Ciccarello would be willing to help you out. In fact Jack is chairman of the New England Woodworking teachers association or whatever they call that group.

Hi Dave,

I have already talked to Jack once and plan on a vist to him at school. Hopefully, I can bring the shop teached for the new school with me. Maybe a trip to Brentwood at the same time. We have a couple of months to get this all together, so it is not a panic, yet!! Jack had some good input and now that the situation has changed, I think he can really help as they administration has opened their minds a little. They wanted the Rolls Royce of shops, but I am hoping for just Cadillac.

I have to sell this to the annual school district meeting, so I do think that solid plain Jane is the way to go. (For those from the rest of the world, the School district meeting is like town meeting. Several hundred people gathered and voting by show of hands, so my proposal has to be accepted by some old conservative New Englanders).


I don't know Tome Ciccarello, do I? Is he a member of GNHW?

Thanks
CPeter

[CPeter James]

I disagree with Steve and Jim, I would stay away from the high end Felders, etc... First the students are not going to see this stuff again, and you are going to eat up your budget real fast. If is wasn't an intro type program, well maybe, but for entry level I would stick with quality machines that have withstood the test of time in school environments. What I would really consider is the guy selling the comlete shop on ebay for $45,000 including delivery. What you get is quality machines, and TOOLING (very expensive for startup) and end up with a sweet shop that would likely be close to $100,000 if everything was purchased new. If also gives you cash for wood, mulitple hand tools (20 block planes, 20 hand saws, 20 work stations, etc...) It would be nice if you could find benches at another school action, because they usually go cheap and are expensive to buy new. Setting up work stations and a small tool set for 20 studends will likely eat another $15,000, you figure another $5,000 for wood, and you still have $35,000 to set up the machining side. With that you could get a couple used CNC machines, maybe a EDM, or a couple metal lathes and a Bridgeport. $100,000 sounds like a lot, but tooling will eat it up like crazy. The shop on ebay could really get you started and be very budget friendly.

John

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=11810

The heck with the kids, I'll buy it, just don't know where to put it all. Too bad, we have to deal with some rule, like bidding it out for the school stuff. The pictures make it look good.

CPeter

[Mark Singer]

Dean,
Excellent advice. Learn on the equipment that is typical and what you will actually use. Computerized hi-tech equip. is not fine woodworking...it is processing wood. I'm sure one of the best equipped shops in the world is in the Ikea factory...and all they make is a bunch of crap! ...with their automated sliding table edgebanding mortising combination slicing and dicing equipment. I would rather see some good basic equipment and great benches and fine hand tools... Some things don't get better ...they just change!
Mark

[John Weber]

Bummer, some smaller school districts can be a little more flexible, but even $45,000 is a bit for a super to sign off on. Would have been a nice way to get outfitted. If you focus on what you want to do you should be able to get set up. Just drop that metal stuff...

John

P.S. My Dad teaches wood, metals, drafting, and electronics. I think the coolest thing they did in metals was pour sand cast molds. Years ago they use to make cannons on the lathes that really fired, but the was before the schools went insane...

[Dennis Peacock]

I would stick with Delta, Jet and PM for the lines of power tools to choose from. 8" jointer would be fine for a school shop. A good cabinet saw, 16 or 18" bandsaw, a good variable speed lathe and such. I was in shop class for all 4 years of high school and loved it. Problem was, after I got out of school...I found out how EXPENSIVE those machines were and didn't venture into woodworking until years later. Our school shop was outfitted with stuff that the common person couldn't even THINK about buying for a home shop....unless you are a Jim Becker or a Todd Burch.....no offense guys....just envious of your really nice tools.

Keep it simple and affordable and don't forget good hand tools. Power tools and tools in general do not a craftsman make.....it is skill and learned knowledge that makes a woodworker.

[Dean Baumgartner]

I would stick with Delta, Jet and PM for the lines of power tools to choose from. 8" jointer would be fine for a school shop. A good cabinet saw, 16 or 18" bandsaw, a good variable speed lathe and such. I was in shop class for all 4 years of high school and loved it. Problem was, after I got out of school...I found out how EXPENSIVE those machines were and didn't venture into woodworking until years later. Our school shop was outfitted with stuff that the common person couldn't even THINK about buying for a home shop....unless you are a Jim Becker or a Todd Burch.....no offense guys....just envious of your really nice tools.

Keep it simple and affordable and don't forget good hand tools. Power tools and tools in general do not a craftsman make.....it is skill and learned knowledge that makes a woodworker.

I wholly agree Dennis. I had much the same experience with high school shop. They were great tools but just way more then I could find at home and this kept me out of woodworking way too long.

Dean

[Todd Burch]

I took one year of woodshop - 10th grade. I loved it. I goofed off so much all I made all year was one bookcase - still have it.

I remember our shop. We had a 24" cast iron planer, probably a northfield or an oliver, Jointer was probably an 8" industrial machine. The table saw sucked. It was a 10" contractor model whose fence was so sloppy, you had to measure at both ends of the blade. A Edge sander, a drill press, a gigantic dust collector mounted outside, and pretty much all else was hand tools, aside from a random assortment of electric drills. No routers, no biscuit jointers, no shaper, no air tools (past a blow gun). There might have been a big radial arm or a miter saw - can't remember (1977/8 school year). Oh yeah, a lathe too.

Anyways, that was plenty to get introduced to woodworking. We learned what the tools were for, the safety, how to use them, and different things you could do with them. I remember one day the other students saw me pushing a board across the tablesaw diagonally, making some moulding, and they ran to the shop teacher ("Coach") to tell on me. He was dually impressed that I had figured that technique out!

Benchs with clamps are important, but 2 or 3 students per bench is fine. We had 4 students per bench. Every so often, each student took his turn in the "tool room", checking tools out to the other students for the class period. Good memories.

Even in today's economy, $100,000 is plenty to outfit a shop, especially if it is so small that you are limited to a 30" fence on a tablesaw.

Look at the warranties too.

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

Peter
Concerning a planer
At Woodland Hills High School (where I taught)
We had a 20 inch (if I remember correctly) planer
with a spiral cutting head. Installed in the head was 69 - 2 inch cutters.
These cutters could be rotated 3 additional times for a new cutting edge.
The planer also came with a grinder attachment that fastened to the top of the machine to regrind the cutters (from above).
Now your going to ask me for the manufacturer - that's where my brain is lost. I can't remember and have tried many times. I was using it for about four or five years - and can't remember.
I do remember working on it to replace the "jumped" bicycle chain, one time.

It's claim to fame, first and formost was that it was QUIET ! Real quiet - we (as teachers) were able to talk over the noise of the planer running with oak going through it.
Now - there was also many other reasons and good points for buying a $14,000.00 machine in 1989 or 1990, and you can start listing them but the quietness of the machine sold us.
Well, maybe this may help you to "look" for a spiral head planer.