Rules..No Rules?

[Richard McComas]

Another vote for real names.

[Phil Phelps]

You have to be nice about it, though. I'm sure we'll work through the details on the rules. What I can't stand is "extreamism" on either side. I have posted some of the most innocent, humorous, sentences that contained "government", and was shot out of the water. It is actually stupid. Look where we, as a nation, have come with political correctness. We don't need to be fingerprinted and sworn in. Common sense is paramount. As Paul Harvey reminds us, " You can't have self government without self discipline". But, for some, and innocent comment can turn into a political war. Like I said, self discipline. Most of the BP's rules were fine, just drop the "absolute" part and lets have a little flexibility. We'll just shoot those who don't agree. (There I go) Phil

[Terry Hatfield]

A few others have already addressed this issue on both sides. I felt compelled to post my feelings.

I don't like the "no affiliation" rule. It made me walk on egg shells on the Pond. I know that many others feel the same way. I could not even link to pics of my DC ducting article on Bill Pentz's site!! Personally I don't see the big deal with "no affiliation". What is the difference in posting a link in a response and saying go to the member list and find my site??? Once on the Pond a guy asked directly in a post where to find the pics of my shop. I answered and of course the response was removed. I was not trying to sell the guy anything!!! I was just trying to help him build a hood for his MS. Did I violate the rules....yes. Was Wayne within his rights to remove the response...yes. Is the rule fair....I don't think so.

Everyone knows I am in the cyclone biz. I don't want/have to "advertise" it here , but it will be talked about. It already has been. I did not ask any of these folks to post something about the site. They just did it. If the "no affiliation" rule was in effect here I could not even respond to questions about my site or post a link to ducting help or a informative shop pic. Look folks, no member with a web based business wants to wrongly promote it here or force their site on anyone. We just want the opportunity to respond if it comes up and to link to helpful articles or pics on the site. I have NOT and NEVER will ask anyone to buy anything in a post here. That would be wrong. I do however want the freedom to link to portions of my own site if I feel that I have something there that will answer a question or help someone with a problem.

I'm sure that there is a common ground answer to this rule's question. I sure don't want the forum to look like the classified ads but I also don't want to be prohibited from answering a question or posting a link to my own site.

Opinions.......thoughts???????

Thanks,

Terry

[Chris McKimson]

I also like the idea of real names and locations.

I would also like folks to be able to hyperlink to thier own websites. Many have alot of information to share and to have to go somewhere else (i.e. members websites) was always a hassle.

And Keith, thanks for asking rather than just tellin.

[Keith Outten]

This is the most difficult problem we have to address in the "Rules" area. Wayne was very strict in how he moderated this type of situation. Those of you who are not involved in woodworking professionally might not have picked up on this at the Pond. Remember that Wayne had sponsors, this is where the money came from so he wanted you to shop at his mall and buy from his sponsors. This was absolutely the right way for Wayne given his business model. If you wanted to advertise on the Pond he had an established way for you to do it and you were expected to pay, there isn't anything wrong with that.

I suggested that we keep a little slack in the rope so to speak just because I want all woodworkers to be welcome to contribute here at SawMill Creek. What we're talking about here is mostly very small businesses, small business people have a tremendous amount of knowledge to share so they are a major resource. If an amateur can link to his/her site what about someone with a small business? How about amateurs who sell their projects? If they post pictures of what they have sold isn't this commercial posting?

My point is that I like to talk to woodworkers about woodworking and related topics. If I get the opportunity to ask a Professional a question and can get free advice good for me! I hope there is a place where we can meet in the middle here and everyone will benefit. I don't want to see any advertisements on SawMill Creek though.

Everyone please let me know what you think on this topic so we can establish a clear understanding as to what we are willing to consider commercial and what isn't.

[Al Mann in Miami]

Rules let you know what sort of behavior is acceptable and what is not - for you and for everyone else. When there is a clear rule, there are no arguments - you either follow the rule or go someplace with different rules. No hard feelings, no criticism intended, you just go where you can do your own thing.

I liked Wayne's rules. FWIW, and since I was asked, here are some of my opinions:

• No handles in addresses. First name and location should be the minimum. Last names can be a real turnoff to new folks; I remember the leap of faith when I posted my first Badger Pond post.
• I have been "Al Mann in Miami" since I first posted on Badger Pond, and I sign myself "Uncle Al" because that is what some old friends call me. I suggest that format, but I am not averse to changes.
• No links in posts. One of Wayne's concerns was that a link to a very inappropriate website could be posted and unintentionally visited before he found out what was happening and removed it. With Sawmill Creek being less intensely monitored than the Pond was, this becomes a stronger possibility.
  

Off topic posts are great. They let people develop relationships by putting some of their personalities into the forum

Commercial posts are tough. I've seen lots of folks in the business whose posts were highly valued because of their experience. Their commercial ventures were known and referred to often, but the links to their sites were in the same place as those of all other posters. I never found it particularly inconvenient to visit them, although Wayne's indexing system could be improved upon. I'm not a professional and don't have a website, so I may be missing something here. YMMV.

I can sympathize with those who feel that a forum of civilized adults can be self-governing. My experience is that a lot of friction can be avoided by clearly defining the rules; subsequent discussion is limited to whether or not the rule was followed, and not on how to interpret the rule.

BTW, a forum like this is not a democracy. While Keith can (and should) solicit input from his users, there is no counting of ballots; in the end the decisions are his, just as on the Pond they were Wayne's. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Uncle Al

For what it's worth in south Florida.

[Howard Barlow]

I never have had a need to hide behind a handle. I don't care for them. I wouldn't care if they were posted along with a name in the info at the left, but not handles alone.

I would like a forum that had a little more wiggle room. I love the political page on The Oak. Things get pretty hot there sometimes, but it is a place you have to go to, to get there. If you don't care for politics or religion, you don't see it. A slugfest from time to time, but we all respect and get along with one another. Heck, we even have civil words on occasion.

No guns, Zack? Are you nuts? I have my .45 in my belt everytime I go to the boards. You're all safe.

[Ed Bartchy]

Keith,

I can see where the issue of commercial posting gets complicated. Personnally, I don't want to see a bunch of commercial listings in the postings. I'd like to come here to read about folks woodworking projects, be able to access a lot of experience on woodworking, and share some OT items in a nice family-oriented, G-rated environment. Hey, I have enough stress and strain at work and don't need raging debates or commercials when I log onto the internet looking for a woodworking community.

Once strings of notes come in only for the purpose of saying "here's a sale for this" or "go to my website, I've a lot of these for sale", you've got a commerical channel rather than a community of people. As Al mentioned, you also have the opportunity for the stray poster to send you to a site you really don't want to go just as some kind of joke.

How about something similar to what was done at the Pond and have a separate section where people can register their websites. That would allow you to vet that it's a real, woodworking website. Then, if someone's looking for a particular kind of business, they can go to that section of Sawmill Creek. If folks provide a good, basic desription of their website/business, a simple search routine would allow anyone to find anything they want.

Ed Bartchy

[John Miliunas]

Read over your opinions regarding possible rules and you raise some valid points. But, this is not the Pond and therefore does not necessarily mean that we need unbendable and hard-fast rules to retain civility. Maybe chasing down links is not that big a deal, but for those folks on dialup, it can be quite time consuming and make the experience much less pleasurable. Plus, it takes away from shop time! The link thing can be applied to general links or commercial stuff equally. Like Keith says, many of those folks are very willing to share otherwise valuable tips with the whole community. Other than that, I think we're all consumer savvy enough to be able and tell the difference between a fellow WW just wanting to share and the one looking to find a buying market. Heck, I can see where some of the small operations (part time and the such) would link to their site just out of pride.

Ultimately, your final paragraph sums it up quite nicely. No, this is NOT a democracy. Although we may feel as though this is OUR site, it's really Keith's and he has the final word on it. Then again, it's really not that much different than taking a WW class somewhere. Even though you've paid to go to it, you're using *their* facility and all that goes with it. Yet, at the end of the class, I'll bet *everyone* pitches in to clean up. Keith can't be expected to read each and every post on all the forums. If this is what Wayne chose to do, well so be it. If the rest of us help Keith do some of the "housekeeping" and make him aware of what we may feel is inappropriate, he can make the judgement call at that time. Just my $00.02....

[bob stotts]

First and last name for sure. I have had my name a long time and I,m real proud of them.
bob stotts

[Dan Bussiere]

Keith,
I agree with your take on the rules! Names should be a must!
Dan

[Mark Mazzo]

Keith,

I think that your summary of the SMC rules is a perfect compromise of why the Internet is what it is, but also why the Pond was what it was. You took the good points of the Pond and kept them, but also altered things a little where appropriate.

I do agree with others that handles should be disallowed in fovor of full names. No politics or religion. I also agree with your asessment about commercial site posting...we don't want to keep professionals and authors etc. away by denying them a little exposure. They will make the site much more rich in terms of its content. As long as there is no blatant advertising by an entity things will work, and the "report post to moderator" is there to allow members to help police things.

Thanks for asking for our opinions.

-- Mark

[Ken Wright]

I think you've outlined the parameters well Keith. Real names, city and state .. no politics or religion. I don't like handles.

I personally don't mind ... actually I like ... to be directed to some place where some poor bloke is trying to scratch out a few bucks. I'll buy from him if I can just to help out.

[Ian Barley]

Real names please - the main reason I don't visit most other forums is the 14 year olds posting under slightly smutty names and the idiots who feel they can say what they want because they are hiding behind a handle.

Hyperlinks - Only time I got carded by Wayne on the pond was because somebody asked what the URL of my site was and I told him. I ain't trying to sell anything to woodworkers, mainly because most of you are better at it than me and also beacause I'm about 8,000 miles away across the water. I think if somebody is posting a link that illustrates a point which is relevant to this forum then fine. If they are creating a post to plug there new range of flange wobblers they should get deleted.

I also agree on all the other points. I think that good, clear justly applied rules are what makes any community function.

[Dave Anderson]

I lived by the rules at BP but I don't think we should try to recreate BP at SMC.

My opinions (free for the asking...)

Names: First or Last better Both - No "handles."

No religion, no politics.

No use of the "Seven Banned Words" but I see no problem with saying Darn or Dang.

Links: Yes, to your personal website, yes to other sites that have a purpose based on your post. No to Commercial posts.

While I think Flame posts serve little lasting purpose - they are fun to read sometimes and I like a good laugh! Some of the best posts ever at BP were those Flame posts and the replies before Wayne got to them

My biggest gripe about the Pond was that the rules were VERY NARROW. We liked them or got used to them but enforcement of those strict rules drove poor ole Wayne out of town.

I think we are on a slightly wider and more appropriate path here at the Creek.