Dust Collector Dilemma

[Justin Henry]

If you have 220 ..... for penneys more than the HF-Wynn combo I'd go this route anytime.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dc2000b.html

Check size of impellors, cfm and bags. Willing to wager the thing is at least 75% stronger, probably more. But 120 would be problem.

Not knocking the HF combo - many are very happy with it. This just has more juice. But needs the juice to it to do it

[Bill Leung]

All, your input and opinions are much appreciated. It is interesting to hear the different views of those who have lived and Breathed the experience.

Bill, thanks for the additional information, like your website, I will need to read your post a few times.

So it sounds like you use an Jet 1100 cfm DC with a Wynn filter as well as a cyclone. I take that as a recommendation for the Jet. Your comment regarding small home cyclones as chip collectors is one of the reasons I was getting confused from all the write ups. I was concluding that the main advantage of the cyclone is that you would have less cleaning and more consistent airflow. It's encouraging to know that the trash can separators do a good job. As a weekend warrior, 300 hours of operation could sadly take a year to hit. I have the air filter so supplementing that with a 1100 cfm DC and trash can cyclone might do the trick especially if I exhaust outside.

[Burt Alcantara]

Bill,
There are a few non-scientific issues to consider. If you really like woodworking you will eventually end up with more tools then you'll ever be able to use. It's like moving into a new house. This year: What will be do with all that space? Next year: Were'd all this stuff come from?

Dust collection is a very subjective matter. I bought the Harbor Freight on sale for $150 or so. Put a Wynn filter on it. Never captured enough dust for me. There was always a film of dust on the collector and everywhere else. This, in conjunction with the JDS ambient filter. The real test as far as I was concerned was watery eye, sneezing, coughing and an unpleasant feeling in my lungs.

I began wearing a cartridge mask. Helped enormously. Sold the HF and bought the small ClearVue - CV1400. There is no dust anywhere near the cyclone. This is 5hp with a 15" impeller. My filters (Wynn) capture .5 microns.

I don't cough or sneeze. My only problem now is getting the shavings from turning under control. They go everywhere.

Hope this helps,
Burt

[Bill Pentz]

Bill,

You are most welcome. I again put my two cents below in blue.

bill

All, your input and opinions are much appreciated. It is interesting to hear the different views of those who have lived and Breathed the experience.

Bill, thanks for the additional information, like your website, I will need to read your post a few times. You are most welcome

So it sounds like you use a Jet 1100 CFM DC with a Wynn filter as well as a cyclone. I take that as a recommendation for the Jet. Yes, I think the Jet is a very well made dust collector, and when I bought mine it was also moved the most air. Still, remember it lacks the airflow for good fine dust collection so I only use mine when I can wear my 3M 7500 NIOSH approved mask and can use a big exhaust fan blowing outside, otherwise I use my cyclone. Your comment regarding small home cyclones as chip collectors is one of the reasons I was getting confused from all the write ups. Almost all dust collectors 2 hp and under and all cyclones 3 hp and under lack ample airflow to power ducting, a seasoned filter, and still move ample air to our larger tools needed to meet the minimum OSHA air quality levels. I was concluding that the main advantage of the cyclone is that you would have less cleaning and more consistent airflow. Cyclones are far more convenient than the constant struggle with dust collector filter bags and constantly plugging cartridge filters, but a cyclone requires about one third more overhead than a dust collector to force the air into the tight separation spiral. They typically move about a third less air than a dust collector. That is why we need bigger cyclones to move the same air. It's encouraging to know that the trash can separators do a good job. A trashcan separator does a great job for “chip collection” but is near worthless for fine dust collection. Trashcan separators only work with airflows up to about 400 CFM as much more air volume simply scours the cans clean. To separate with larger airflows we need either a huge trashcan or a cyclone. Trash can separators and most unmodified cyclones provide near exactly the same roughly 85% separation by weight on typical dust meaning close to 100% of the fine dust is blown right through and into our filters. Most cyclones modified with air ramps and neutral vanes still only provide 80 to 85% separation by weight meaning most of the fine dust still ends up in the filters. Fine dust will quickly plug an undersized filter. As the filters plug the pressure goes up. With wood containing high amounts of silica better known as ground glass the increased pressure is enough to force these fine particles to cut and tear their way through our fine filters making for short filter lives. That is why I designed my own cyclone which provides better than 98% separation by weight with over 99.9% separation efficiency on dust sized 5-microns and larger before putting anything into the filters. This greatly reduces required filter sizes and extends filter life considerably. As a weekend warrior, 300 hours of operation could sadly take a year to hit. Agreed, but with the most dangerous dust invisible and something that builds in most shops, how do you know when you have a problem or when you need to change filters? I have the air filter so supplementing that with a 1100 CFM DC and trash can cyclone might do the trick especially if I exhaust outside. Again the trashcan separator will not work well with a 1.5 hp or larger dust collector unless you kill the airflow by using 4” ducting. Likewise, I agree exhausting outside plus wearing a good dual cartridge mask like the 3M 7500 series is a must. I also personally clean my shop regularly with a HEPA filtered vacuum to ensure it does not build up lots of dust that is easily stirred back into the air.

[Bill Leung]

Burt,

I'm in total agreement with you. As an mech engineer, looking at the cfm, micron, fps, data is always helpful in making the correct decision. The issue I was having with my research is that a lot of the information was conflicting. Some people say the bags just don't work. In practice more people said they did work then not but depends heavily on the environment and tools they are using.

So this is what I learned from this post which I hope will help others as well.

1) It appears that the higher CFM bags do work if they are maintained correctly or modified.

2) Dust hoods and shrouds are key to successful fine dust collection. It actually seems like if you improve this, you can also decrease your CFM requirement as you need more uumpf to catch the lighter faster dispersing fine dust.

3) Use a chip seperator.

4) Air cleaners are useful as fugitive dust is constantly in the air and being agitated.

As Bill Pentz knows, you can write a novel on this. I keep the list short for now. If others have comments to add please do.

[Bill Leung]

So, after all the great info from all of you I purchased a 20hp, .0001 micron, 4000 cfm, dual stage cyclone, with a lemon cented misting unit, and yes, it came with a kitchen sink. Seriously, I bought a Jet 1100 cfm 1.5 hp with Remote, set it up yesterday. I only got to turn it on for a bit but man does it suck... in a good way of course. I didn't get the chip seperator jet as I may not have the space for the extra can just yet. Where I have it placed in the shop, I will only need about 6ft or less of hose to reach the machine.

With the air cleaner, and the ability to open doors/window, I should be in good shape. I really do wish the DC had a kitchen sink though... that would have been helpful.

[Rick Moyer]

Bill, post back and let us know what you think after using it. I will eventually look at something similar I suppose, as I have a one person/ one-tool-at-a-time shop which I CAN open a 3-6' door on the end (but I don't like to in the winter, when I do most of my stuff). I think what you got would be adequate for me.

I do have a planer and jointer, though, so maybe not!? they do make a lot of messs without reasonable collection.

[Dave Lewis]

Bill:

I have Penn State 2HP cyclone and decided on the cyclone on part seeing the bag type collectors that typically leave a "puff " when they start.

Be advised that the duct-work / gates / hoses to stationary & portable equipment can cost almost as much as the cylone. Having said that, it sure it nice working w/o dust everywhere.

[Norm Koerner]

Too many people spend too much money on a cyclone to go with their dust collection systems. It doesnt have to be funnel shaped. For years I got by with a 55 gallon drum, cutting out the top, laying a piece of 3/4 plywood on it, pulling air out to the motor/impeller via a 6" hose centrally mounted in that "lid" and having the shop chips/dust enter the perimeter of the lid/barrel with an elbow inside to start the swirling action. In operation the suction holds the lid very tight even without rubber seal.

Then I found out a former student who is in the heating and A/C business with a "tin" shop could build me a true cyclone. For under $200 he will build you one, too. 6- or 7-inch inlet and whatever outlet size you want. Phone me at 217/787-8795 and I will pass on his number in south-central Illinois.

Another suggestion for y'all is to split your piping on the way back to the dust bags, running one branch to the exterior of the building. That way when you don't need to keep your heated air or cooled air returing to your shop room, you can blow everything outside, especially the fines.

To help eliminate noise, put the "guts" of your dust collector outside the shop, in an adjacent room, or in an enclosed area in the shop. If the later, insulate it well for sound dampening. Alot of the sound is emitted beyond the impeller blades, so think about putting a "muffler" there. It'll cut the noise in half. I got mine from Penn State. Under $100.

For smaller tools where a Shop-Vac might be sufficient.....like a sander, downdraft table, bandsaw, etc. consider a tiny cyclone. Oneida makes the Dust Deputy that fits on a 5-gallon bucket or 20-gallon drum and goes between between tool and Shop-Vac. Price is $99 for cyclone or about $160 with lid and container. 1-1/2 or 2-inch inlet and outlet.

Another nifty gadget to go with any Shop-Vac related hook-up with a tool is a self-actuating switch from Sears. You plug the unit in the outlet, then plug the tool and Shop-Vac into it. Firing up the tool turns on the Shop-Vac to collect debris and it continues to run 7 second after turning off the tool to clear the hose. Cost is $20. I also use in with lights dedicated to such tools as the bandsaw. The switch will self-actuate TWO tools simultaneously.