Scroll Saw versus Laser Engraving

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Jim,
Very interesting thread You started. Have you had time to use that 3mm ply you bought yet?


Phil,
First of all Welcome to the Creek. I'm glad you stepped out in faith when you posted here. Some of the words that come to mind after reading some of the posts that refer to people whom use CNC's and or lasers or any other mechanism that improves quality and efficiency are: generalisation, stereotype, prejudice, close minded and fearful. I do not wish to offend or assassinate any one's character or prejudge some one on hear say but I think the market will speak for itself. Good products whether they are "Handcrafted", "Handmade", "Hand Finished" or hand carried from the trunk to the table will always rise above the others and the consumer is the ultimate judge, jury and executioner. They will Judge if a product is worth the price, their inner circle of friends/family will be the jury by their comments if they like or dislike the product, and all consumers are the executioner and they will either have a stay and keep buying and telling others about it or purchasing ceases and the product is discontinued. (sorry I love explaining thoughts in analogies sometimes)


Until there is a universally excepted definition for handmade, hand crafted or hands on, Manufacturers (which I think we all would fall into that category See Merriam-Webster) will have to find their niche and not take rejection personally. It's mostly a number's game. When I hear a "no" I just say next because I know a "yes" is coming soon. If I do not get a "yes" after several "no's" then I have to reevaluate my product and or marketing.

We use our laser to make one of a kind and mass production originals along with custom made one ups using purchased clip art on a CD or on the net. 99% of our CNC work is all original and sometimes a customer supplied file that I have to clean up to make it work with the program. I would never try to call our stuff off "Hand Made". 3D projects can definitely be Hand crafted or hand finished when applicable.

There are many advantages and disadvantages between a laser and a scroll saw. One of the biggest is price. Just about anyone can get a scroll saw for $300-800 dollars for an entry level machine, where an entry level laser, which has a very small laserable area, starts at around $9,000.00+-. So with just that said I think that the laser purchaser is serious about making some money to have a return on their investment or may have a lot of extra disposable income and like big toys as a hobby .
A scroll saw is more hands on where a laser user, at least in my case, is more brain on and a bit of finger tip pushing. I could go on but they are all part of the process to manufacture a product.

Yes, believe it or not, some of the products I have designed have not been winners but I learned from it and some times it was 4th or 5th generation that ends up being the one that hits the bulls eye.

I went off on a little rabbit trail here to show how the end user/customer is the one that will be the deciding factor. If someone did not like my 1st or 2nd design, I would ask them why so I can learn by it and continually improve our products and then sometimes you have to educate the consumer also and then let them decide if they still want your product after you tell them why you chose a certain type of wood, or why you make something a specific size. Where do these play in the scope of "Hand crafted et al"?

Now a few other words come to mind...Experience, common sense, logical, good listener, innovative, fair...

Forum's like this one are a great place to gain knowledge but true wisdom comes from how you use that knowledge.


Remember they almost exclusively used a horse to deliver the mail, pull a wagon/cart, plow a field and so on but can you imagine how life would be now if the internal combustion engine was not invented.

Each of them are just tools that are a means to an end result. None of them do anything by them selves. So whether you push buttons or push wood it still requires a good old human touch.


Either way if we do not embrace technology, at some level, it will leave us in the dust (to dust).

Thanks for reading,

[Keith Outten]

I got a chuckle when I read the line about laser engravers having access to scanners. I can remember when I owned my first or second scroll saw we had copy machines and it was common for scroll sawers to bang out copies of patterns and even copy whole books of plans.

I guess I have owned my Laser Engraver for about 4 years and still own a scroll saw. As soon as I can get my laser to cut on an angle or let me work freehand my scroll saw is history, it will never happen

It all seems kind of comical to me the bickering amoung some people over an issue that is nothing more than a definition. Through the years I have learned to appreciate excellent work no matter what the source, means of production or the skill level of the creator. If it is beautiful work nothing else really matters, at least to me. Neither my scroll saw or laser engraver will produce anything by themselves...they just sit there.

Michael took the wind out of my sails

Last but not least I should welcome Phil to The Creek. Phil I'm sure you will enjoy your time here and the friendship that is extended your way.

[Dennis Kotlowski]

I respect scrollsawers very much and their hard work. I started working with wood because of the woodwork my father did....alot with a scrollsaw...but this is 2007 and technology has changed for the better. I own a scrollsaw that I have recently started using along with my laser. Last year was the first year I started doing craft shows and was not denied for any of the shows I attended and half of them were juried. I was even accepted for one of the top shows in the country in Hamburg,NY. I was approaced by many scrollsawers at shows and their was never any confrontation. Actually, many of them asked obout engraving on their work. I think that many of the scrollsawers that are "angry" that laser engravers are stealing sales from them should aim that at the people that are starting to bring in the "crafts" from china. At every show I did last year I saw somebody selling wood items that were obviously mass produced in china and I have found websites where you can buy these items in large quantities...cheap. I cut and staind my own wood and assemble my product I take to shows so I also consider my items "handcrafted". I have not once taken a design out of a scrollsaw magazine and "mass" produced it. I have purchased design software (laserbuzz,berrybasket) where I have mass produced those....but those designers were compensated for the designs.

**Sorry for the rant**


Dennis
JD Laser Gifts

[Robert Alexander]

I also respect any woodworker who can take a piece of plywood or wood or raw piece of material and turn it in to something beautiful. No matter what the tools he or she used to create an item. But with the technology and tooling we have today, the term handmade becomes a little blurred.
The photo I posted below is of a door I did with my scrollsaw, but I drew the design in my computer on a C.A.D. program, and printed out all the seprate parts, taped them to some cedar and cut them out and did a little sanding. I took me about 2 weeks to do. Now with my laser I can do the same job in a few days. So where does it stop being handmade.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Sorry Keith, did not mean to.

Excellent point about the angle cutting but have you thought about attaching a programmable "C" axis to your laser with an adjustable mirror? Yes, I know it would probably end up just a lot of smoke and mirrors but just think if Thomas Edison quit after a few 1000 attempts/failures to make a light bulb we might still be typing by candle light.

I do not do craft shows, though I have thought of getting a booth in an indoor flea market at one time, but will definitely look more closely next time I frequent one and ask if it is a jury one. I had never heard of that term before this thread. It is always good to learn something new each day and this sure is a good place for that.

Have a Blessed day,

[Keith Outten]

Robert,

Your door project has the WOW factor without a doubt. Innovative, creative and one of a kind, the first word that comes to mind is WOW! Nice work and thanks for the picture.

Michael,

I do a lot of my own design work but modifying a laser engraver is out of my league, I will have to wait for one of you folks to find a way to incorporate a C axis.

I haven't had a table at a Craft Show in many years nor have I been as a visitor. Sounds like lots of things have changed.

.

[Joe Pelonio]

I do not do craft shows, though I have thought of getting a booth in an indoor flea market at one time, but will definitely look more closely next time I frequent one and ask if it is a jury one. I had never heard of that term before this thread. It is always good to learn something new each day and this sure is a good place for that.

Have a Blessed day,

I thought I'd share the application form for a juried show that's the biggest in the Northwest. This one would not allow laser or CNC work. There have in the past been booths with hand carving, marquetry, and turned items. We go to this show every year and it's amazing how much people actually sell.

This is considered an affluent city, with median family income of $76,000
but in the nearby smaller towns of Medina (where Bill Gates lives) and Hunt's Point it's $149,000 and $180,000. Just east are cities like Sammamish where it's $104,000. Because of this people come in from all over to sell at this one, and many applicants are turned down. When I took a class in "selling your artwork" many of my fellow students had been turned down multiple times, and were taking the class in the hopes of getting into it.

Artists and craftspeople from the community view artists’ slide submissions in February and March. During the festival, there is also a jury of staff and volunteers who select artists for invitation the following year who are able to forego the jury process. PDF Application below:

http://www.bellevuefest.org/bellevue...ication_07.pdf

[Phil Sanders]

Jim Good:

Well your thread is off on a life of its own now. A lot of people have expressed their opinions, which is good. What is even better is it has been very civilized discourse.

Way too many things to comment on, but let me try this again: a craft show jury is only empowered to insure the compliance of the vendors to the standards of the show's organizers. The show organizers could, if they chose to, restrict vendors to items made to be child safe. (that is an extreme fictitious example.) I am sure there are shows that restrict items to "traditional" methods of making crafts (pre 1801 technology) and the juries enforce traditional (or Neanderthal) craft making; electrical scroll saw users need not apply. I also know there are high end art shows that look just for artistic variety regardless of how it is make. Just because a specific show has a jury, does not mean Laser or CNC made products are excluded. The jury enforces the rules of the show. Read the show rules published by the organizers.

But Jim,
about your question about scroll saw forums. My first question is what knowledge did you hope to gain? I am active in 3 sites, and rarely visit 2 others, and NEVER, EVER go to the MSN groups free pattern places. (I don't need the spam, thank-you very much.) I would guesstimate that at the sites I am active at, about 40% of the discussions are about scroll saw blades (type, teeth arrangement, tension, newbie FAQ, brands, and so forth); Say about 20% to 30% bragging about latest project or showing off a learned technique; an easy 20% on saw brands (saw purchase help, maintenance, cleaning and fine tuning); and what is left over covers everything else.

Yes, I think you would be tolerated at the sites I am active at. And no, I don't think you would be regarded like some huge tree cockroach that just landed on the Potato salad at the family Picnic. Your reception would, most likely, be like the one I got here.

Do stop by, you don't have to be a member to read the threads. One option is to lurk. Try this site: http://www.scrollsawer.com/forum/index.php?
It is hosted by a very good scroll saw magazine. That forum has many members from around the world: Spain, UK, NZ, South Africa to name a few. You can easily see the range of topics is really supportive for a hobby technology; of little interest to anyone else. Search for the poster Carter, who makes free hand puzzles from calendar art. He never sells his puzzles, as it is just a hobby to him. I wish I had his skill. 60% of my puzzles end up as firewood. But Carter's posts may give you an idea for your own creative design projects.

By for now.
Phil

[Phyllis Meyer]

This is good reading, and I appreciate your input, and the fact that you felt comfortable writing! This forum is top notch and the respect everyone has for each other and what we do is remarkable! I appreciate the hard work, and dedication you put into being an artist with the tools you use, whether it's with your hands, tool, or machine!

We purchased a laser to: Form a business, market, and make enough money to support it, and oh yeah...make extra money! This is my job full time, and hopefully one day my husband will be able to also work with it full time (although insurance may prevent that from happening anytime soon). It does all come down to: "What does one want to accomplish with their tools, machines..."? We are in the process of working with various artists to draw exclusively for us for what we do with our laser. We have spent money on clipart that we don't like, so we decided that we need to go a step further to accomplish what we want. I have the utmost respect for folks that carve, and use various tools to complete their work. My husband just finished a set of beautiful end tables that he has been working on for almost two years (time, job, starting a laser business interferred). I will post a picture after the last coat of varnish goes on. We lasered our most favorite deer scene on them and they are magnificent! These tables are made from a cherry tree that fell during a storm a few years back, my husband from start to finish chopped, sawed, kiln-dried, planed, sanded, (forgive me woodworkers, I may have forgotten a step), but they will be our treasure because they were made from his hands, using tools! And... lasered in our machine!

We have also made the decision not to be in certain craft shows after looking into the rules and regulations. We are going to be in a wildlife show and only after we found out that no-one else doing what we do will have a booth. We are not stepping on anyone's toes, or taking anyone else's profits. What an awesome feeling to come up with a product, idea of your own, and I believe is what most of us are trying to accomplish!

What a great thread everyone! Have an awesome day!
Phyllis

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Artists and craftspeople from the community view artists’ slide submissions in February and March. During the festival, there is also a jury of staff and volunteers who select artists for invitation the following year who are able to forego the jury process. PDF Application below:

http://www.bellevuefest.org/bellevue...ication_07.pdf

Joe,
All I could think of is "WOW" and definitely not in the same way Keith used it to describe Robert's beautiful Tree door. I can see some of what they are trying to do by having "Rules and Standards" but when I read rule #7 my jaw dropped and that is where the "WOW" came in. They use "handcrafted" as a MUST of all products but then they allow photography. I have been taking pictures since I was an early teenager and definitely know that it is an "Art" to get a quality photo but where does the handcrafted part come in. As long as the negative is available it can be mass produced. A definition for handcrafted is "To fashion by manual skill". So what is manual skill. Well "manual" can be defined as "relating to, or involving the hands, worked by hands. Also requiring or using physical skill and energy" and "skill" can be defined as the ability to use one's knowledge effectively in doing something; also developed or acquired ability. These are not my definitions but come from my handy 1989 Merriam-Webster dictionary that I keep in my top left hand draw of my desk because it gets used often. Now I am not an attorney but I would challenge #7 as to it's misclassification as to what they define as "handcrafted" and what they allow vendors to sell at their festival. Maybe if they clarified what they called "handcrafted" being no electrical devices, including battery, solar, wind, steam or animal powered tools mechanical devices or any other form of electrical power whether AC or DC, can be used in any of the process to arrive at the final product only YOUR physical hands can be used might clear it up a little. It really just blurs the line because you can always split hairs at each level. Is a painting really handcrafted if the frame was mass produced on an automated line, the canvas was made at a factory using automated machinery, and yes even the paint brush and tubes of paint were made in an automated process. Where does it begin or better yet where does it end.

What Phyllis's' husband did is about as handcrafted as you can get ( I look forward to seeing the pictures) but because they used a laser would that disqualify them from being able to be a vendor at this festival, I don't know but according to the rules probably so.

I illustrate this because the definition of "handcrafted" is in the dictionary but in the public forum I think the jury is still out. Each person has their own skills, craftsmanship, artistic ability and methods for producing a finished product and I love some of the I have seen and I have several books that I have gone through and see how I can take what I have learned and apply it to my methods of producing a finished product.
Even if I do it on a CNC I still have to know what speeds to use with each of the router bits, what type of router bit. Should it be an up shear or down shear, single flute, 2 flute or more. High speed steel, Carbide tipped, Solid Carbide or a PCD diamond bit. What kind of fixture will it require? Vacuum, screw down, glue down, 2 sided tape, C clamp, T-slot hold down and the list goes on. Will the part that comes off the CNC be handcrafted as the handcrafted craft shows define it, probably not. Is it handcrafted as defined in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, I could easily argue yes because my hands are part of almost every process and they are part of the acquired skills I use and as long as "skill" is used in the definition of "handcrafted" in my humble opinion, a product made, in part, on a CNC can still be considered "Handcrafted" but I would not claim it to be solely "Handcrafted" nor do I want to diminish the craftsmanship required to use a scroll saw.

I would rather make 1.00 or 2.00 of fair profit off of 500+ quality products than try to make 500.00 off of 1 or 2 100% handcrafted products in the same amount, or less, of time. That's the business side that puts food on the table and a roof over my head. The woodworker side of me wants to learn how to use a gouge by hand so I can further apply that knowledge to the sculpting tools in my Artcam software that will bless many instead of only a few. What do you think?

[Jim Good]

I've almost used up all the wood I received from you! I will probably be in some need of more wood soon. I'll let you know. The wood was packaged nicely and was of good quality!

You've also made some good comments in this thread, as well as everyone else. While I was originally interested in the thoughts of the scrollers with respect to the laser folks, I've learned a lot from the comments of my laser family. It really got me thinking and understanding the evolution of what we are doing and those that preceded us. The laser is a technological upgrade and that will be seen as a good thing by some and a not so good thing by others. Like many coaches say, "If you stay the same, you're really falling behind". The customer will ultimately be the final judge.

While I wasn't trying to stir up trouble I'm glad we are having this discussion. Phil mentioned earlier that we may have already beat this subject to death prior to this thread, but I didn't find a lot of information on the subject. That is why I threw it out there.

I appreciate all the input to this discussion. I also hope Phil has found a new place to hang out! I would definitely like to see his continued contribution.

Jim

[Jim Good]

Been a long day at work so I haven't been able to do a lot of responding today. I'm enjoying some down time so I thought I would spend some time here at Sawmill.

Phil, you are right. This thread HAS taken a life of its own. I think it has been positive, at least for me. I have gotten a better feel for the feelings of both the scroll sawers and the laser folks. I have learned as much about my laser friends as I have the scroller population.

I wanted to answer your question about why I would be interested in the scroll saw sites. One reason is I like to see the finished products. I love working with wood and I am impressed with what people can do with it. So when people want to brag about their completed work, I'm a captive audience. It's true, I don't care about the discussions concerning scrolling techniques or types of saw blades. I am interested in some of the things that are common between our crafts. How do you determine pricing? What type of stains look good with specific woods? Do you like to mat your cuttings? Do you go to Walmart or a wholesale framing supplier for your frames? Do you make your own frames? Where do you get your wood? How do you set up your booth at craft shows? What software do you use to make your patterns? Do you want to slap Jeff Zaffino upside the head for making such challenging patterns!?! Ok, maybe the laser guy isn't as interested in that! Anyway, you get the idea. There is some common ground and I see no reason we can't be helpful to one another and share info. I don't want to be "tolerated" on a scroll saw site. I'd much rather be welcomed. By the way, I'm not sure I've ever seen a huge tree cockroach! I have seen a cockroach sitting dead on a cucumber slice in my friend's salad at Wendy's. When he showed them the plate, they took it from him and gave him a new plate but they didn't change out the salad bowl from the bar!!! Sorry, I digress!

Phil, I'll have to check out Carter's puzzles. So he makes them from calendar art? Could he make me a puzzle from a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit calendar!?! Sorry, I did it again. Obviously I'm still a little tired. I can't be responsible for what I say.

Let me wrap this up. One thing I see from the posts is that both sides are passionate about their craft. That is good. The end product is something that the owner will appreciate and treasure. There is a place for both. Certain craft shows want to concentrate on specific "types" of crafts and I respect that. If a show doesn't want a laser-made product, I don't believe you will find anyone from this forum that would try to sneak their way in. I know I wouldn't.

Phil, I hope you hang out over here. Show us some of your work. I know I would love for you to share. The people here enjoy what they do and appreciate seeing the fine work done by others.

Have a good evening, I need some rest.

Jim