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Thread: The Sawstop debate rages on

  1. #1
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    The Sawstop debate rages on

    I was surfing a metalworking forum that I am a member of, and lo and behold right there in front of me was a SS thread. Being a curious Creeker I couldn't resist a good debate.

    Turns out opinions and emotions run just as high in the metalworking world about this subject! Just for kicks I mentioned the ever popular Festool vs. EZ Smart debate to see if I could start a good throw down!

    Always stirrin' the pot!
    Kyle in K'zoo
    Screws are kinda like knots, if you can't use the right one, use lots of 'em.
    The greatest tragedy in life is the gruesome murder of a beautiful theory by a brutal gang of facts.

  2. #2
    Any discussion about safety equipment often leads to strong feelings.

    Strong feelings are fine, but reality seems to go out the window so fast. The problem is that people can easily understand anecdotes and personal experience, but it doesn't seem to come naturally for people to understand statistics or measurements based on instruments.

    Among woodworkers, SawStop of course is a big deal, but dust collection is even bigger. Just bring up helmet use on a bicycling forum and you'll get the same results.

    Somebody said near the beginning of the last SS thread, "Time to make popcorn."
    Last edited by John Schreiber; 01-21-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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  3. #3
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    I have used the SawStop for a while now and can say with some authority that it is a fine saw in every respect and the safety factor is well worth the expense....the thing really works! I have had fine cabinet saws like a US made PM 66 and it is not as smooth or as accurate as the SawStop...I am quite happy with the purchase... I think a lot of the controversy is that the thing can't possible work...well it really does! Ot that is costly...which seems ridiculous....evey time I go to buy wood for a new piece I spend between $1000 and $2000 in lumber. One trip is the difference between the SawStop and its competitors...my fingers and my sons are worth it...I have them all after all these years and they are valuable....more so than the additional cost
    I didn't mean to start anything...this is more of a report from a user after a few months
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  4. #4
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    thats a 2900 doller unit if i am not mistaking isn't it? I thought the PM 66 and the Pm2000, and even a General were the gold standards. Does that make the SS a Platinum standard. LOl

  5. #5
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    """""
    Ot that is costly...which seems ridiculous....evey time I go to buy wood for a new piece I spend between $1000 and $2000 in lumber.
    """""""

    Wonder how many of us actually spend that much each time we go to the lumber yard, especially the hobbyist?
    Easy to justify spending big bucks on tools if your making a living at it, not quite so easy if its just a hobby and your income doesn't justify $2000 trips to the lumber yard or 3 or 4k worth of saw.
    Some of us make do with what we have, others are fortunate enough to be able to buy whatever strikes their fancy.


    Al

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Willits
    """""
    Ot that is costly...which seems ridiculous....evey time I go to buy wood for a new piece I spend between $1000 and $2000 in lumber.
    """""""

    Wonder how many of us actually spend that much each time we go to the lumber yard, especially the hobbyist?
    Easy to justify spending big bucks on tools if your making a living at it, not quite so easy if its just a hobby and your income doesn't justify $2000 trips to the lumber yard or 3 or 4k worth of saw.
    Some of us make do with what we have, others are fortunate enough to be able to buy whatever strikes their fancy.


    Al
    Al,
    many hobbiests don't spend that much...many build only small pieces,,,then they really don't need a cabinet saw. A sofa, dining room table or large cabinet has about 100 BF of material at $10 /bf that is $1000. If you are building this kind of stuff...and I do , then a good cabinet saw that is safe is important... For people making small jewlery boxes...a 14" bandsaw and some handtools works fine...it just depends. I see much larger shops with real big equipment on SMC and other places and the work that comes out is relativly small pieces...some guys just want big equipment...I kinda feel for what I am doing my equipment is proportionately correct...There is not one correct way to go ...for each of us its different...fingers are nice to keep though
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  7. #7
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    Mark, my point wasn't whether the saw was safe, or keeping the fingers was important, I was trying to point out not all can justify/afford the expense.

    So saying the cost issue is ridiculous, may not be true for some...leastwise for us poor folk...

    Al

  8. #8
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    A shop with employees or school in certain areas.

    My thinking with Saw Stop is this: I'm a school district or shop with students or employees using tablesaws. I purchase a table saw(s) without sawstop-type technology. One of the students or employees suffers a major injury that Saw Stop could have prevented. Of COURSE I get sued. How do I justify not purchasing equipment that could have prevented this injury? I'm not an attorney or well versed in liability issues, but this is something to consider. I also wonder if there are insurance breaks that might help offset the price premium.

  9. #9
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    Curt, I think you are hitting the nail on the head with regards to liability issues. As for the insurance companies giving a break - I'm not holding my breath. Al's comments are very reasonable, and it relates across the board. The one bit of good news for woodworkers on a tight budget is that [I bet] there will be alot of very good nonSS table saws coming on the used market in the next few years, because businesses and schools will have to upgrade to SS because of the liability risk. Too bad so much has to be done these days to avoid getting sued.
    Ken

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Werner
    Curt, Too bad so much has to be done these days to avoid getting sued.
    Ken
    Ken, maybe it should be looked at this way. There are a lot of kids that take wood shop in school and will become a lifelong passion for them, also there are a lot of employees that have to go to work everyday and try to make a living using tablesaws. Maybe it should be looked upon as a good thing that should be done to help prevent life altering injuries to fellow mankind and especially kids. I know this is a touchy subject and I swore that I would not respond to this thread, but here I am. Respect and Regards, Bill

  11. #11
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    I don't think anybodies (well, most anybody) said the Sawstop is a bad thing, I'd think that if you could buy the Sawstop blade feature for a couple hundred bucks and add to your present saw, they're be lines at the store to buy it.
    And I can see schools and industry buying these things like crazy.
    I'm not so sure it will stop any of the lawsuits, but you sure think it'd help.

    Seems like a great saw for those who can justify/afford the cost, well made and having the ability to help keep all your fingers, seems like a given... and if me and my Delta hybrid keep having the love/hate relationship we're currently having, it might even be in my future...

    Al...who thinks he can forgo a couple...er...make that a few house payments for one.....

  12. #12
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    I'm all for the SS at workplaces and schools. I am sorry that the motivation for it comes from fear of liability rather than getting the safest tool for those using it because it is the right thing to do. I'll [try to] keep quiet now. With mutual respect to all.
    Ken

  13. #13
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    I am a small one man shop and ask myself daily is this the day I have a saw accident. I work alone most of the time. My family has seen the SS and ask that I purchase one no matter what the cost. It doesn't take the place of total focus while opperating but it is that extra insurance that should something happen while using the saw I will still be able to hold my Grandchild.
    SS does not take on any more responsibility than the other manufactures do. I will save up my dimes and buy the first Contractor size saw that comes out. (my shop wouldn't hold a cabinet saw)

  14. #14
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    Personally, I'd like the SS for its dust collection and beefy-ness and would happily purchase one even if it didn't have the safety feature. I just don't see my Griz 1023Z going south any time soon....
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  15. #15
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Singer
    I have used the SawStop for a while now and can say with some authority that it is a fine saw in every respect and the safety factor is well worth the expense....the thing really works! I have had fine cabinet saws like a US made PM 66 and it is not as smooth or as accurate as the SawStop...I am quite happy with the purchase... I think a lot of the controversy is that the thing can't possible work...well it really does! ...I didn't mean to start anything...this is more of a report from a user after a few months
    Mark, I for one greatly appreciate your report. It makes my decision to purchase one as soon as I possibly can even stronger. If I could, I'd go out today and buy one, but cost and my lack of space right now prevent me from doing so.

    BTW --- The WoodCraft in Stanton, CA has announced that they will be selling the SS and they have one for people to see in their store. Hopefully I'll be able to see it demonstrated the next time I get down there or when I take a class at heir store.
    Don Bullock
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    The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.
    -- Edward John Phelps

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