Festool Domino

[Gary Keedwell]

Me. I already sent my order to Uncle Bob Marino.

Maybe I'll order one.....My biscut joiner is getting lonely...all by itself in the corner.

Gary K.

[Rich Stevens]

From what I'm reading, the only thing a FMT (a heavy player in this discussion) may have over the Domino is the accuracy on an end mortise, but that might be overcome by a simple jig for the Domino (I've used the FMT several times and love it).

I worry less and less about the initial cost, because I'm finding over and over that it doesn't really pay. The cost of upgrading is more than offset by buying quality at the onset.

So, is it worth it to upgrade to a Domino and not buy a slot mortiser or FMT or such? The price isn't significantly differerent between the Domino, FMT, or a slot mortiser, is it?

The question is: which one works best for me, 'cause I only want to buy one?

James,

Here's my 5 cents worth...

I live in Australia. I bought my Domino a few months ago after what seemed like an eternity trying to decide if I could justify spending close to A$1600 (approx US$1200) getting the full Domino kit. Some of you guys in the US will face this challenge also.

Aside from cost, what I feared most was whether after spending this amount of money the Domino would end up living its life on a shelf like a workshop queen and doing little. Well, that would depend on how much woodwork I do, I guess.

Lets set a few things straight - I am a hobby woodworker and I am painfully anal retentive when it comes to fit and finish. I will go to the far corners of the world for a magical solution if there's one. In the end, I decided the Domino was one such cause worth pursuing.

Pre-Domino, my joinery arsenal consisted of a Felder mortiser, Lamello and JDS Multi Router. Post Domino, I now have the JDS Multi Router only (and its going to stay). The Felder Mortiser (or any mortiser for that matter) has its pros and cons - the major advantage is capacity. Major disadvantage is precision and flexibility. I got rid of it when I sold my Felder combo. I also got rid of the Lamello due to alignment problems - I dunno, for some reason I could never get two mating surfaces of the same thickness to be perfectly flush. For this reason it ended up being a workshop queen. When news of the Domino started to spread, I decided it was time for the Lamello to go (and what a great decision it was - sold it for the same price I bought it years ago). The biggest loser out of all of this will be Lamello as the Domino is striking at the heart of the Lamello strength - quick joinery. But the Domino does a whole lot more.

Why have I kept my JDS Multi Router? Simple - precision. I have produced compound joint mortise and tenons only metal working machinery could ever challenge (if I wasn't so lazy, I would post a few pics of some I've done). The Multi Router can't be beat when it comes to chair making. Don't be fooled - I wouldn't trust the Domino to do ALL joints in a chair as the loads and stresses are extreme in some key areas (eg back legs to side rails). In other areas, the Domino would certainly help speed things up a little - eg back rest slats.

The Multi Router also has the advantage of larger milling capacity - excellent for large joints - eg tables, doors etc

So, what do I like about the Domino so far. First and foremost, accuracy; followed by speed of execution. The fit is generally piston tight and alignment is at least 95% or better (remember I am an alignment freak, therefore very biased). For case work, the Domino has been been excellent - I now have much more confidence when it comes to flat panel work and have decided to have a go at building a AV wall unit in the new year. I wouldn't have done so with the Lamello.

Does it still hurt having paid so much for the Domino? - yes, it does, but the pain is fading. Each time I use it and I get the outcome I want, huge slabs of pain wash away. For professional shops, the first couple of jobs will pay for this baby. A friend of mine who does custom mill work bought one months ahead of me after being given a one on one demo by the Festool rep said that this single device improved his workshop productivity by at least 15% because of its accuracy and repeatability. The first job he did using the Domino paid for itself. He now uses nearly one thousand Dominos biscuits every month or so. Yes, it does get a workout. Lamello - what Lamello? He sold his too.

HTH

Richard

[Mitchell Andrus]

Who is going to get one at the $700.00 introductory price?

It's a cute gadget. It places a very precise slot at exactly the angle you set it for in a stick of wood and it'll do it over and over.

What I don't like are :
1.) the price

Agreed, but if it doesn't do well at $700 - 800.00, the price will drop. I'm sure there's room.

2.) the fact that some German engineer is choosing the size and shape of your joint components (that just doesn't work for me).

Not so. Three widths of joints and (I think) three thickness tenons... Plus, I 'm sure you'll be able to move the cutter along the piece and run a slot as long as you need, just make a tenon to match.

3.) The fact that no matter how good they make the thing (and they do make it well) it is absolutely impossible to get a long duty life from a pack of teeny tiny gears and bearings unless you somehow limit the stresses the gadget will encounter. I don't know if that's possible for a wood working machine. And this gadget does a lot more than simply spin round like a rounter. It plunges and sweeps side to side while spinning round. That is one huge amount of mechanical activity going on in such a tiny package. I can't see this gadget lasting more than a year and a half tops.

Agreed, for a very busy pro shop, it'll last a few years assuming replacement parts are available. I'd also like to know the cost of the cutting bits/primary gears/motor brushes, etc., before I buy one. The lateral load at the tip must be imense.

Of course, if you're contemplating this much activity to make joints, you need to head over to the hollow chisel machine. Once stops are set, I can fly through a hundred mortises and then cut a hundred tenons at the TS in about an hour. - No need to wear out the Domino.

4.) The fact that the joint component size is limited and not expandable.

Like biscuits and dowells, these joints may be stagered top to bottom and left/right to cover a very large jointed area.

I think this is a mid-level tool. Too costly for the amatuers, too fragile for the really busy shops. I'll be getting one, for sure for I am a gadget freak.

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I can't see this gadget lasting more than a year and a half tops...

Cliff - No problem. Even if your prediction were to come true, all Festool power tools are guaranteed for 3 years.

[Rick Christopherson]

It cracks me up to read these threads. The most vocal and opinionated postings are coming from those that have never even seen a picture of the Domino, and in some cases don’t even know what it does, let alone ever tried one. Some people are saying that it’s a bad tool because it is not accurate, then others are saying that it’s a bad tool because it’s too accurate. Then comes my all time favorite, someone is willing to spend $700 on a Lamello biscuit joiner, but wouldn’t dream of spending the same $700 on a tenon joiner because it's not as strong. As I was sitting back reading all of these postings I couldn’t help but wonder how many of these same woodworkers owned one of those pretty rosewood handled squares or marking gauges that adorn so many woodshops, and sell for $200.

This Domino thing, It’s the Debil’s work... the Debil’s work, I tell you!!!
==========================
As some of you may know, I am building a $15,000 dining room table. The precision is so tight on this table that I am holding most components to a few thousandths inch tolerance, and angular tolerances are also as low as a few thousandths of a degree. (yes, this is machine-grade tolerances on a woodworking project--and they need to be too.)

This morning I needed to glue up the extensions for the octagonal feet on the base. It’s too long of a story to explain why I needed the composite construction shown below, but suffice it to say that without having a Domino, I couldn’t have made this glueup in a reasonable time. (and if someone is stupid enough to tell me that biscuits would have been just fine, I am going to beat you senseless with an engineering slide rule. Yes, senseless!)

In the glueup below, I have 6 tenons per side, for 8 sides. That’s 96 mortises and 48 tenons. The core material is 2-inch thick high-density maple plywood, and the extensions are from solid mahogany. This will all be skinned with Ribbon Striped African Mahogany veneer in a radial pattern (hence the need for the glueup). ...(Oh, and if someone tells me that a single large tenon would be better or stronger, I'll be using the same slide rule to beat you as well, and maybe a bit more.)

I used the 10 x 50 mm (3/8" x 2") tenons separated by 10 mm vertically (for strength) and staggered across the width of each segment. The final joints are so close to flush that all I will need to do is hit them with my scraper to flush them up. (Although for precision, I will probably run the whole thing through the widebelt sander.)




The final table is going to be in the 400 pound range, and these 8 joints are going to be supporting the entire thing. Needless to say, these joints are critical. Normally I would never have dreamed of gluing up an octagon in segments like this because the compounding errors would be too high by the time I got to the last pair of segments. However, with the accuracy of Domino, I was able to glue up each pair separately, and when I got to the last pair of segments, I only needed to trim 0.001 to 0.002 inch to get them to fit!



This picture is the dry-fit I did before gluing.




For reference, this is the SolidWorks model view of the final pedestal. The sape of the base should explain why the odd-shaped segments were used, as shown above. As soon as I am done typing this message, I need to head down to the shop and bandsaw the shape of the base to the profile shown.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Rick,

This table needs its own thread.

I have no doubt that for those that put this tool to work it will make them money.

[Gary Keedwell]

Rick C.


And your point is? The consensus is that it will probably help SOME people to make money. What alot of the people you criticize are saying is that for the average woodworker, it would probably be a huge waste of resources. At $700-800 plus a few for the tenons and other expenses for this new tool, your talking over one thousand dollars.


Again were talking apples ( hobbyist) and oranges ( pro's). The hobbyists shouldn't be so critical if the pro's buy it to make money and the pro's shouldn't critisize us hobbyists if we think that it is an unnecessary tool for us to enjoy our hobby.
So I ask again....what is your point?

Gary K.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Rick C.


And your point is? The consensus is that it will probably help SOME people to make money. What alot of the people you criticize are saying is that for the average woodworker, it would probably be a huge waste of resources. At $700-800 plus a few for the tenons and other expenses for this new tool, your talking over one thousand dollars.


Again were talking apples ( hobbyist) and oranges ( pro's). The hobbyists shouldn't be so critical if the pro's buy it to make money and the pro's shouldn't critisize us hobbyists if we think that it is an unnecessary tool for us to enjoy our hobby.
So I ask again....what is your point?

Gary K.

Gary - Kindly speak for yourself and not the rest of us. I have followed this thread and see no "consensus". I suspect that there will be lots of hobbyists that will find this new tool both useful and affordable, and perhaps even a necessary addition to their workshop.

[Rick Christopherson]

Gary,
If the only argument that was being levied was over cost (e.g. pro versus hobby), I wouldn’t have wasted the energy in making my posting. It doesn’t take 70 postings in this thread to state that the Domino is an expensive tool.

I made my posting because some of the statements and wild speculation was getting ridiculous. People were making “absolute” statements about the tool that they not only didn’t know anything about, but were in fact 180 degrees opposite to the facts.

I could care less if someone doesn’t like the tool--I don’t make any money from its sale. But the most laughable statements in this thread are those that claim this tool won’t go any where. Domino wasn’t delayed getting to the U.S. market because Festool was afraid it wouldn’t sell. It was delayed because the sales have been so high that production cannot keep up with demand Internationally. (Festool has been building inventory for months to support the U.S. market.)

How’s that saying go? “I got mine. You’re on your own.” Festool is not worried that this tool won’t sell. They are worried that it will sell too well!!! Six months ago Festool asked that I stop making any Internet postings about Domino. Not because they were afraid it would hurt sales, but because they were afraid it would create a frenzy to get the tool before it was available.

I’ve used this tool. I know what it can do. I can assure you, it will take a healthy chunk out of the existing market. If you can’t afford it, you won’t buy it. But I’ve got two biscuit joiners that are going on Craig’s List for sale.

[Dan Lautner]

"And your point is?"

This tool is simply amazing. The Domino allows you to quickly make super accurate rock solid joints. I think in the end this tool will prove to be every bit as valuable as the festool guided rail and saw. If your goal is to collect tools and big cast Iron equipment to make birdhouses then maybe the Domino is not for you. If your goal is to build quality furniture and cabinets and get them done efficiently this tool is a must have. The price is a non issue if it saves time and improves workflow.

Dan

[Stephen McClaren]

Hey, looks like a neat tool.

Followed the links, I really like the "woodshopdemos" site, great info there.

In reference to the delay in getting the tool to the US -- In looking at the wood mag link I came across this:

"it's been small, since resolved UL issues that have helped limit the Domino's availability for the last year."

So, on top of the international demand, they had to get the gov. Ok as well.

To me It seems like a really nice biscuit jointer with pins on each side to help with alignment (although super precise German alignment pins I'm sure). Unless they have the paten on spring pins I don't see why someone could not make a tool that does the same thing for a lot less money. Which might be another reason not to introduce it to the US market out of the gate.

If it sells like everyone thinks, there will be 5 companies in the next 5 years coming out with comparable units, no need to wait till we are all 90. If it's that good and the patens are that tight, they would make more licensing the patens to a company that can produce the quantities that the market requires than they would producing the units themselves. I'm holding out for the 18v Firestorm version myself

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary - Kindly speak for yourself and not the rest of us. I have followed this thread and see no "consensus". I suspect that there will be lots of hobbyists that will find this new tool both useful and affordable, and perhaps even a necessary addition to their workshop.

David....I stand corrected...there will be alot of hobbyists who will purchase this tool. Like the poster previous said about expensive machinery and birdhouses....

I guess I was only referring to the practical and money conscience people who only do woodworking to relax and put their mind away from the everyday turmoils we face. I guess there are hobbyists who work in a frenzy and want to produce tons of furniture....I just don't know of any personally.

You know of the old saying about producing a product that people didn't really know they needed....

Gaty K.

[Chris Barton]

I've watched this thread with a little interest but, there seems to be a certain religous "flair" to the diametrically opposed sides of this discussion. The more I look at the Domino the more I wonder how it is different than a fancy dowling jig? It seems to me that a Dowelmax jig could do everything this will do...

[Mitchell Andrus]

I agree. There are a few of us who will NEED this tool. Excuse me while I change my drool bib.

The one advantage I can see is the 'slight' ability to add a bit of wiggle room into the technique. If I find the joints to be too unforgiving, I'll gladly make my own tenons to allow a 1/16" lateral adjustment - something you can't do with dowels.

[Mark Singer]

I think if you are doing production work....it makes sense to have the Domino. If you are a hobbiest , the challenge of making fine joinery is a big part of the fun of woodworking. With the domino, I suspect, woodworkers will design furniture around using the tool.....more hidden joinery etc. There are many gagets that truly save time that I personally am not that interested in. I have a Bisquit Joiner and rarely use it....once in a while its handy. The Kreg jig I use very often ....it really seems to help on lower level finish projects, like my production quality cabinets. For shops...this looks like a great tool. I like to size my mortises ....lay them out by hand and cut them in a practicle way....usually my slot mortiser. I don't think this tool will improve my woodworking skills much....and for new woodworkers that are just starting to learn to make joints.....they may just never learn the traditional technques, which are so important in almost every project....At a woodworking show....I tend to walk by all the "slice'um and dice'um booths filled with new gagets...many tasks can be done as easily with a shop made jig and a bit of creativity....this Domino lands somewhere in between for me...I will not be running out and buying one....I am still learning to improve my hand cut dovetails...with that never ending task in front of me, I may not have time for the Domino.....or once I see one ....I may have to have it....nah