Phyllis Meyer How about a laser update

[Keith Outten]

Phyllis,

How about an update on your laser engraver problems. As I recall you received parts to install. How is your engraver doing now?

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[Joe Pelonio]

Don't ask, Keith. . . let's just say it's not over yet. Maybe pm her.

[Phyllis Meyer]

Hi Everyone!

I have a running laser, and will fill everyone in on all the facts and I am waiting for some "experts" to guide this so all of us can make informed decisions when it comes to buying lasers, warranty info., technical support...This forum is a wonderful support and also being monitored by the laser manufacturers! I will be honest and explain the situation if anyone would like! I will only post when I feel it will be helpful. At the moment we are dealing with the fact that we have spent a lot of money, worked very hard to build this business this year, obtained some excellent clients in the last two months, and couldn't deliver the products on time resulting in loosing a major client, and looking like fools when we did deliver to the rest because of the laser being down! We also compensated for the late delivery (because we believe in taking care of our customers)!

I realize you all don't have all the facts but to make a long story short right now, we are learning some tough lessons in the business world! We did rely on this one laser (the normal number a new business starts with), that we paid a lot of money for and we have had 2 breakdowns (of the same problem). We were told that perhaps we should have purchased another laser and spare parts at the time of purchasing our brand new laser! How many of you would have purchased if you were told that from day one? Would you have also known which parts to ask for at the time of your purchase? To be fair to Epilog, they have made good on shipping the parts overnight and us being able to be up and running! They keep reminding me that they have done what they say they would do! The communication along the way has been the most frustrating! They did not test the original parts that we replaced a month ago, so they are not clear on the true problem. It appears to be the reader head, (2 breakdowns same problem within a month concerns us)!

No-one can help in regards to us loosing clients (that we desparately need), I know it is not anyone's fault, it is just an awful feeling to promise to deliver a product and then not be able to make good on that promise! We were told that we should not worry about the laser not running properly and not to do the "what if it goes down again" routine. Would any of you feel good about that? We are positive people, but something is not right here and we are not laser technicians! If we were a few years into this business I think the customers would be a bit more understanding, this is an 8 month old operation that we have put our heart and soul into (oh yeah the $$$$ also)! Any suggestions would be most helpful, we do appreciate this forum and the hard-working folks that purchased lasers because they believed that laser engraving has a market! I did praise Epilog on last month's situation, (check out one of the posts I did and Epilog's message). For all of you considering which laser...please understand the warranty, tech support, when breakdowns happen...and ask questions! We were also told that our expectations were a bit high with the purchase of our laser! How high are yours when you spend the amount of money it takes for a laser and everything else that goes along with starting a business?

Sincerely,

Ron & Phyllis Meyer

[Keith Outten]

Phyllis,

I'm sorry you have experienced so many problems and it seems the timing is as bad as it could get. I own an Epilog Legend 35 watt machine, mine has been reasonably reliable with only two out of warrenty hardware problems. Neither failure came when I was in a high production mode so I didn't experience any loss of customers or late delieveries. Epilog was quick to diagnose my problems and get parts to me, faster than I could install and test my machine as I was in the middle of a very large CNC job at the time.

I wonder if we could setup a cooperative system that would be helpful in these kinds of situations? Basically a list of those who have resources available and would be willing to share equipment time in an emergency. This would be especially helpful when there is another engraver located within a reasonable driving distance.

If I had to purchase two engravers just to have some assurance that I would be able to meet my deadlines I would dump my engraving business and stick with CNC routing, which is more profitable anyway. I have found that the two machines complement each other very well and often combine routing and engraving in the same project. If my engraver became unreliable I would have to reconsider the dual machine kinds of projects.

Keep your chin up and keep us posted on your progress and by all means let me know if I can be of assistance with any projects. I have plenty of machine hours available on my laser these days, my shop work is primarrily CNC routing and Dye-Sublimation right now.

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[Bruce Volden]

Phyllis,

I'm sorry you have experienced so many problems and it seems the timing is as bad as it could get. I own an Epilog Legend 35 watt machine, mine has been reasonably reliable with only two out of warrenty hardware problems. Neither failure came when I was in a high production mode so I didn't experience any loss of customers or late delieveries. Epilog was quick to diagnose my problems and get parts to me, faster than I could install and test my machine as I was in the middle of a very large CNC job at the time.

I wonder if we could setup a cooperative system that would be helpful in these kinds of situations? Basically a list of those who have resources available and would be willing to share equipment time in an emergency. This would be especially helpful when there is another engraver located within a reasonable driving distance.

If I had to purchase two engravers just to have some assurance that I would be able to meet my deadlines I would dump my engraving business and stick with CNC routing, which is more profitable anyway. I have found that the two machines complement each other very well and often combine routing and engraving in the same project. If my engraver became unreliable I would have to reconsider the dual machine kinds of projects.

Keep your chin up and keep us posted on your progress and by all means let me know if I can be of assistance with any projects. I have plenty of machine hours available on my laser these days, my shop work is primarrily CNC routing and Dye-Sublimation right now.

.

That is a EXCELLENT idea Keith!! Anyone joining the co-op would be doing the work at the quoted cost of the degraded co.?? There is not much worse than losing customers. I nominate you to "set things up" beings it is your idea I ended up with 3 laser systems to "keep up" with production, my 2 largest customers have since moved on to other ventures (retirement) so I have these 3 paid for systems mainly collecting dust. But, personally, I like being NOT busy If I can be of assistance let me know.


Bruce

[Ken Garlock]

First off, the only thing I know about operating a laser is using the little pen light laser for teasing my cats. I think your experiences go beyond the physical laser machine.

It seems to me that you are paying big dollars for inferior products. Basically, the equipment you buy does not meet or exceed your expectations. BTW, a quality product is a product that meets or exceeds the customers expectations; something that I had drilled into me head at Texas Instruments Inc.

The manufacturer should have a stated lifetime for their components in hours of actual usage, not calendar days sitting in your shop. Even my Scag lawn mower has an hours elapse meter monitoring the motor, and maintenance schedules are based on that meter. Consider that auto manufacturers have a miles of usage guarantee on new cars. Why shouldn't you have a like guarantee on your investment.

Are there user conferences, if so bring up life expectancy at these conferences. From what I have read, replacing a laser tube is an expensive thing. As such, the users should demand a guarantee of X hours beam-on usage as a selling point. Since there is more than one laser manufacturer, it seems that there should be some competition for customers among them.

Remember, a salesman's song and dance does not put one dollar in your pocket. Let them know what you expect. In the long run they will have a better product, hence more sales, and you will be happier.

You are the customer, make sure the manufacturer understands that.

In the simplest form, everyone of us is either a customer or a supplier in every dialog. Unfortunately, that appears to be a foreign concept to our politicians.

Like I said at the top, I don't know the workings of your machines, but I do know that you have made significant investments and are not getting your monies worth.

[Ed Newbold]

That is a EXCELLENT idea Keith!! Anyone joining the co-op would be doing the work at the quoted cost of the degraded co.?? There is not much worse than losing customers. I nominate you to "set things up" beings it is your idea I ended up with 3 laser systems to "keep up" with production, my 2 largest customers have since moved on to other ventures (retirement) so I have these 3 paid for systems mainly collecting dust. But, personally, I like being NOT busy If I can be of assistance let me know. Bruce

I'll second that idea! I think the co-op thing would be a boon to all when stuff hits the fan, like equipment failures, or in my case, since I only have 1 machine right now, huge orders that swamp me with work.

Let's go for it!

Thanks,

[Keith Outten]

Ed,

Let me give this some thought. We already have a Laser Engravers and CNC routing list that would serve as a Master list for Co-Op Members. We just need to add another field to the list to identify those who are participating.

Possibly we could coordinate bulk buys of material purchases, software upgrades and share volumn discounts. It's worth some thought.

Anyone else have ideas? Interest?

By the way i am way behind publishing an update to our engravers and CNC list. I will try to get everyone added to the list this weekend and post the new web page update. Sorry for the delay, I have been working on the new SMC portal page and of course our fund drive for the last few weeks. We will have a link on the new portal page and I hope to add a link to everyone's web pages when the new portal page is online. We average 547,000 hits per day so the list should get lots of exposure....I told you folks that I had plans for our Engravers and CNC List

Phyllis, we haven't forgotten you....is there anything we can do to help you out right now?

[Keith Outten]

First off, the only thing I know about operating a laser is using the little pen light laser for teasing my cats. I think your experiences go beyond the physical laser machine.

It seems to me that you are paying big dollars for inferior products. Basically, the equipment you buy does not meet or exceed your expectations. BTW, a quality product is a product that meets or exceeds the customers expectations; something that I had drilled into me head at Texas Instruments Inc.

The manufacturer should have a stated lifetime for their components in hours of actual usage, not calendar days sitting in your shop. Even my Scag lawn mower has an hours elapse meter monitoring the motor, and maintenance schedules are based on that meter. Consider that auto manufacturers have a miles of usage guarantee on new cars. Why shouldn't you have a like guarantee on your investment.

Are there user conferences, if so bring up life expectancy at these conferences. From what I have read, replacing a laser tube is an expensive thing. As such, the users should demand a guarantee of X hours beam-on usage as a selling point. Since there is more than one laser manufacturer, it seems that there should be some competition for customers among them.

Remember, a salesman's song and dance does not put one dollar in your pocket. Let them know what you expect. In the long run they will have a better product, hence more sales, and you will be happier.

You are the customer, make sure the manufacturer understands that.

In the simplest form, everyone of us is either a customer or a supplier in every dialog. Unfortunately, that appears to be a foreign concept to our politicians.

Like I said at the top, I don't know the workings of your machines, but I do know that you have made significant investments and are not getting your monies worth.

Ken,

Your right on the money with your observation. I asked Epilog about adding an hour meter to their machines, I got the impression they didn't like the idea.The warranty on a car is based on time/mileage I see no reason why an hour meter couldn't be driven by the laser tube and record laser time. Most pay as much for their Laser Engravers as they do automobiles and I would never purchase another car with a 12 month warranty again or with low mileage coverage.

.

[Bob Keyes]

I fear this may be the door for our Chinese friends to enter the market. I have a Chinese 60 watt laser that is really nice. The software is really great. It is TRUE that there is no service and no training. You are pretty much on your own, but you only pay $5,000 or so for what our folks are selling for close to $20,000. I don't think it will take them long to figure out where the soft spot is and explore it. If they can put an operating machine on the floor for $5,000, just a few more bucks will set up the supplier network they need to compete.

I hate to see this happen, but it is unavoidable I fear.

[Phyllis Meyer]

Hi Everyone!

Thanks Keith, and all who have offered advice, help...from the bottom of my heart I thank you! Our machine is running right now and we are filling our orders. I truly love the idea of a network (already suggested that to Epilog this morning), and they say they can't give out their customer's names. I understand that, but I will work on my own to find all laser engravers in the State of Wisconsin! It probably starts here! This is a good lesson to learn, we are learning every day! I am over-whelmed by the folks that have offered their machines! I will write more later, off to deliver some items! Have a great day!

Sincerely,
Phyllis

[Mike Null]

Keith:

Coincidentally, I had just sent Phyllis a PM one minute after yours posted suggesting she find a local competitor and work out an arrangement. I also volunteered to help out if logistics permitted.

So as soon as you figure out a way to do this I think I'd be interested in participating.

I guess this is an appropriate time to suggest a forum within the laser forum to deal with manufacturer issues. From what I can gather buyers are somewhat timid with these manufacturers and they shouldn't be. There are two mfrs who seem to be having more problems than the others. A forum where these problems could be documented and kept on file might serve to assist new buyers in the decison making process and might make the manufacturers more responsive.

[Mike Shauer]

Ken: You are right on. Seems like far to many manufacturers want to take your money but want little responsibility for the poor design of their machines.

Keith: Count me in! I will help out anyway I can with however needs it. Also with the bulk buying/ shared volume discount thing.

Now that said I due live in Canada but I am just an hour away from Sumas WA. where I keep a postal Box.
Cheers, Mike

[Keith Outten]

Keith:

Coincidentally, I had just sent Phyllis a PM one minute after yours posted suggesting she find a local competitor and work out an arrangement. I also volunteered to help out if logistics permitted.

So as soon as you figure out a way to do this I think I'd be interested in participating.

I guess this is an appropriate time to suggest a forum within the laser forum to deal with manufacturer issues. From what I can gather buyers are somewhat timid with these manufacturers and they shouldn't be. There are two mfrs who seem to be having more problems than the others. A forum where these problems could be documented and kept on file might serve to assist new buyers in the decison making process and might make the manufacturers more responsive.

Mike,

I will be discussing this with Aaron Koehl this weekend, Aaron could create a database that is html accessible that we could use to document hardware problems. The search function here is also an option and does work well when the proper keywords are included in messages. I'll let you know.

.

[Bill Cunningham]

Ken,

Your right on the money with your observation. I asked Epilog about adding an hour meter to their machines, I got the impression they didn't like the idea.The warranty on a car is based on time/mileage I see no reason why an hour meter couldn't be driven by the laser tube and record laser time. Most pay as much for their Laser Engravers as they do automobiles and I would never purchase another car with a 12 month warranty again or with low mileage coverage.

.

What I find hard to beleive, is that function is not in there 'now'... The display on the Epilog already tell you how long each job takes, and even the cheapest of laser 'printers' keep track of the page count.. If the job time is displayed, why is it not 'accumulated' in a novram or something.. I 'personally' think there is a code that can be entered from a diagnostic tool of somekind (maybe even the front panel in a keyin combination) that 'will' give you the accumalated time.. If it's not in there, 'someplace' then I personally feel the designer was an idiot...